Author Topic: AUDAX Max and Min speed  (Read 13461 times)

John M

AUDAX Max and Min speed
« on: January 18, 2009, 09:38:15 pm »

Hi,
Please can anybody please explain in what circumstances can the max and min speed of an AUDAX ride be altered and by how much?
Thanks
John M  :-\

border-rider

Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2009, 09:50:57 pm »
It's all in the regulations

If it's a BR event:

Quote
5.7 Speeds: events shall be run within maximum and minimum overall speeds and riders checked through a series of controls which have predetermined opening and closing times and which must be published in the brevet card for calendared events.
(i) The minimum speeds may not be altered and shall be:
for events up to 699km - within the range 14.3 to 15kph;
for events from 700 to 1299 km - 13.3kph;
for events from 1300 to 1899 km - 12kph;
for events from 1900 to 2499 km - 10kph; and
for events over 2499 km, 200 km per day.
(ii) The maximum speed set by the organiser for the whole or any part of an event may be any speed up to 30kph. Minimum and maximum speeds will be noted in the Calendar.



if it's BRM:

Quote
6.1 Speeds and Distances: speeds and distances shall be as set down by ACP or LRM. Where a rider’s finishing time is outside ACP or LRM limits but is within AUK limits a BR may be awarded and vice versa.



If it's BP then:

Quote
it will be permissible to relax the minimum speed below BR values

so it's up to the organiser.


Good question though - I'll add it to the Audax FAQs

Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2009, 09:51:41 pm »
From the AUK handbook:-
For "normal" BR rides:-
Quote
5.7 Speeds: events shall be run within maximum and minimum overall speeds and riders checked through a series of controls
which have predetermined opening and closing times and which must be published in the brevet card for calendared events.
(i) The minimum speeds may not be altered and shall be:
for events up to 699km - within the range 14.3 to 15kph;
for events from 700 to 1299 km - 13.3kph;
for events from 1300 to 1899 km - 12kph;
for events from 1900 to 2499 km - 10kph; and
for events over 2499 km, 200 km per day.
(ii) The maximum speed set by the organiser for the whole or any part of an event may be any speed up to 30kph. Minimum and maximum speeds will be noted in the Calendar.

If the ride is Brevets de Randonneurs Mondiaux (BRM):-
Quote
6.1 Speeds and Distances: speeds and distances shall be as set down by ACP or LRM. Where a rider’s finishing time is outside Audax UK Regulations ACP or LRM limits but is within AUK limits a BR may be awarded and vice versa.

for Brevets Populaires (BP):-
Quote
7.2 Speeds and Controls: it will be permissible to relax the minimum speed below BR values and also to relax the standards for controls but where controls are relaxed the brevet card will bear no certification of distance and therefore will not be eligible for any of the AUK award schemes.


EDIT: what MV said  :)

Craig

Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2009, 10:03:39 pm »
if it's BRM:

Quote
6.1 Speeds and Distances: speeds and distances shall be as set down by ACP or LRM. Where a rider’s finishing time is outside ACP or LRM limits but is within AUK limits a BR may be awarded and vice versa.
And what speeds are set down by ACP / LRM? How do they differ from AUK speeds?
Just wondering.

border-rider

Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2009, 10:08:55 pm »
ACP:

Audax Club Parisien web site

Quote
Article 10 : Overall time limits vary for each brevet according to the distance. These are: (in hours and minutes, HH:MM) 13:30 for 200 KM, 20:00 for 300 KM, 27:00 for 400 KM, 40:00 for 600 KM, and 75:00 for 1000 KM.

Seems to apply to LRM also.  What that means is that a BRM event has to finished within the "declared" BRM time for the nominal distance - so if it is a "600" it has to be done in 40 hours, even if the true distance is 620 k. If it were an AUK BR event you'd have another hour-and-a-bit because of the extra 20 k.


Giraffe

  • I brake for Giraffes
Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2009, 09:50:12 am »
Yes, 40 max.

One PBP year we had a control on the Brian Chapman about 16 km from the finish for the last hour or so, as some riders would be over 15kph but out of time at the finish.

We also had to change the Regs. when some riders on, IIRC, the Knotty 600, wanted 13.3kph as it was over 600km. The change was necessary to protect Organisers, as the difference would have meant hiring the hall for another day and having the Monday off work.

The limit is necessary for qualifying for PBP. In '99 a couple of chaps who'd packed on the PBP told me that the Long Flat Boring 600 wasn't suitable as a qualifier (it might be if ridden in 30h); there was also a feeling that anyone who needed 40h for an 'average' 600 (Pam's Dave's, WCW) probably shouldn't be attempting PBP.
2x4: thick plank; 4x4: 2 of 'em.

LEE

Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2009, 02:30:56 pm »
The 619km Bryan Chapman says "Category BR" on the AUK site.

Is this an AUK BR or a BRM?

Min speed is 15kph, is that for 619km or for 600km?


Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2009, 02:34:18 pm »
The 619km Bryan Chapman says "Category BR" on the AUK site.

Is this an AUK BR or a BRM?

Min speed is 15kph, is that for 619km or for 600km?

BR, otherwise it'd say BRM, and therefore it's 15kph for 619km.

There tend not to be many BRM rides outside of PBP year as there's no need for BRM validation in non-PBP years. However some rides do it out of tradition; The Elenith is always BRM for example.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Giraffe

  • I brake for Giraffes
Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2009, 02:36:06 pm »
It tends to be BRM in PBP years. It'll be 15kph over 619km; 41h 16m.
2x4: thick plank; 4x4: 2 of 'em.

LEE

Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2009, 03:07:58 pm »
It tends to be BRM in PBP years. It'll be 15kph over 619km; 41h 16m.

Yeee- Harrrr !

I've got a feeling that extra 1hr 16m may come in handy.

Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2009, 04:05:12 pm »
Just be careful on some rides though. I've seen control closing times (and control distances on the Brevet Card) based on the minimum distance between controls and not the routesheet distance.

Example Event A is a "200", the shortest distance between controls is 208km and the suggested route on the routesheet is 213km.

For a BRM you'll only have 13h30 (by definition a 200 only gets 13h30 not the expected 13h40).
For a BR ride you'll get anything from:-

13h40 (200km at 15kph)
13h52 (208km at 15kph)
13h59 (200km at 14.3kph)
14h12 (213km at 15kph)
14h32 (208km at 14.3kph)
14h53 (213km at 14.3kph)

It all depends on what the organiser put down as the control distances for the Brevet Cards and/or what they decide they'll accept anyway.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2009, 05:26:59 pm »
Just be careful on some rides though. I've seen control closing times (and control distances on the Brevet Card) based on the minimum distance between controls and not the routesheet distance.
What I think is far worse than this, is control times which use the BR speeds, on a BRM event.
So on a 600, you can leave the penultimate control "in time" but you're really nearly 2 hours behind schedule. If it's over-distance (see BCM discussions) you're even worse off.
Lesson learned:
alter your brevet card before setting off, if necessary (or note your own schedule separately before the ride).
(of course this won't matter until May 2011 ... )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

border-rider

Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2009, 05:37:27 pm »
There tend not to be many BRM rides outside of PBP year as there's no need for BRM validation in non-PBP years. However some rides do it out of tradition; The Elenith is always BRM for example.

Some people chase the ACP Brevet 5000 as well, and that needs BRM rides.   

Reminds me...

Giraffe

  • I brake for Giraffes
Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2009, 07:13:54 pm »
Just be careful on some rides though. I've seen control closing times (and control distances on the Brevet Card) based on the minimum distance between controls and not the routesheet distance.
What I think is far worse than this, is control times which use the BR speeds, on a BRM event.
So on a 600, you can leave the penultimate control "in time" but you're really nearly 2 hours behind schedule. If it's over-distance (see BCM discussions) you're even worse off.
Lesson learned:
alter your brevet card before setting off, if necessary (or note your own schedule separately before the ride).
(of course this won't matter until May 2011 ... )

Does this happen often? The old database had some very complex calculations (all developed by Francis) to give the correct times according to category. I remember a 1000k that wouldn't come out correctly until it was put as 13.33kph rather than 13.3 (not my idea - Helly mentioned it).

I used to calculate BRMs that were over-distance as BR to get the AUK time to put in the final box then go back to BRM.
Distances for timings should always be as on the route - if there's so much difference that there's a problem with riding time, the route needs attention.
2x4: thick plank; 4x4: 2 of 'em.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2009, 11:54:11 pm »
I might add that AUK's 'take' on BRM times is not exactly the same as what is laid down in ACP/BRM regulations.  They are the same as far as the finish cut-offs are concerned, but not the intermediates or even the Start (which according to strict regs is supposed to stay open for an hour).  Other countries have similar (but probably different) liberal interpretations of the regs.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2009, 07:11:09 am »
For a BRM you'll only have 13h30 (by definition a 200 only gets 13h30 not the expected 13h40).


Actually 200/15 = 13 hr 20 min.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2009, 09:51:15 am »
Thanks! One thicko point to me. Doh!
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2009, 10:46:31 am »
What I think is far worse than this, is control times which use the BR speeds, on a BRM event.
So on a 600, you can leave the penultimate control "in time" but you're really nearly 2 hours behind schedule. If it's over-distance (see BCM discussions) you're even worse off.

Does this happen often?
well, having only done 2x BRM 600s, (and only just started using the Event Planner), I'm not the best person to answer ...

So i can only say it was an issue on 1-out-of-2 600s in 2007.
Quote
Distances for timings should always be as on the route - if there's so much difference that there's a problem with riding time, the route needs attention.
Good point, but the BCM is 19km over, which gives well over an hour 'error' - easily enough to ruin someone's day.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2009, 10:58:14 am »


Some people chase the ACP Brevet 5000 as well, and that needs BRM rides.   

Reminds me...

Also many of the increasing number of LRM events around the world by default expect BRM qualifying rides.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2009, 11:33:35 am »
For a BRM you'll only have 13h30 (by definition a 200 only gets 13h30 not the expected 13h40).
Actually 200/15 = 13 hr 20 min.

Actually
http://www.aukweb.net/official/guid3.htm
13h30

Gb was right - its 'by definition' and not a matter of distance/speed

It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2009, 11:34:36 am »
He was correcting my maths. (I said that 200/15 was 13h40 which is wrong.)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: AUDAX Max and Min speed
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 08:42:49 pm »
The "200km per day" clause for Very Long Rides seems to be on the verge of an update:

Quite, we've done this before. Should be addressed in this year's round of regulations updates to amend to 8 1/3 kph.

I'm also not entirely happy with the 200/day min every day interpretation.
That isn't the correct interpretation. Any more than you have to do 15km in every hour of a BRM 200, say.
see http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=68736.5 <- I've been reliably informed by DIY org that this discussion is correct.

(I'm posting this here as it's in the FAQ Index)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles