Author Topic: DIY add ons to Perms  (Read 3636 times)

DIY add ons to Perms
« on: June 16, 2009, 11:19:30 am »
OK. It looks like the DIY+Calendar process has been sorted out to most peoples satisfaction and the points chasers can get maximum points fof their efforts. So how about the same for riding 50km to the start and 50km home from the finish of a 100km Perm that has 2.5AAA points ? Should be possible to get 2 points for the 200km and 2.5AAA points ? No ?

How do I go about this ?

Phixie

  • No gears and all the ideas
Re: DIY add ons to Perms
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2009, 05:11:27 pm »
OK. It looks like the DIY+Calendar process has been sorted out to most peoples satisfaction and the points chasers can get maximum points fof their efforts. So how about the same for riding 50km to the start and 50km home from the finish of a 100km Perm that has 2.5AAA points ? Should be possible to get 2 points for the 200km and 2.5AAA points ? No ?

How do I go about this ?

PM Martin who is doing all the admin on this when it gets going
At the end of the day, when all's said and done, there's usually a lot more said than done.

Tom

Re: DIY add ons to Perms
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2009, 05:32:54 pm »
I did El Supremo's 170k Super Sportive earlier in the year and I think it was worth about 3.5AAA points.  However, I turned it into a 200 with the ride to and from the start.  I had it ratified by Andy Uttley and duly received credit for a 200k perm, but was told I'd lose the AAA points.  It doesn't make any difference to me, but I couldn't really understand the logic.  Surely, it's at least as hard to ride a hilly route with an extra bit tagged on to the front and back as it is to ride the hilly route alone?

Being new to all this, I just accepted it as another quirk of audaxism.

Re: DIY add ons to Perms
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2009, 05:40:17 pm »
I did El Supremo's 170k Super Sportive earlier in the year and I think it was worth about 3.5AAA points.  However, I turned it into a 200 with the ride to and from the start.  I had it ratified by Andy Uttley and duly received credit for a 200k perm

DIY rides have no AAA points associated with them. In the current system of DIY+Calendar you DNFed the calendar event so there's no record of you getting the AAA points for it. The only ride you completed, as far as AUK is concerned, is the DIY.

Martin's new DIY+Calendar thing is a way of getting credit for AAA points from Calendar rides included in a DIY, and also to make it easier for DIY organisers, plus the calendar event organisers (they get more people listed as finishers).

The OP of this thread is asking whether the new DIY+Calendar jobbie can also be applied to Perm rides (I don't see why it shouldn't although it may not have been considered thus far).

Being new to all this, I just accepted it as another quirk of audaxism.

Yep.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Martin

Re: DIY add ons to Perms
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2009, 11:47:45 pm »
sorry MSeries; you cannot combine a Calendar add-on ride with anything other than a calendar event  :( it's very much intended as a means of both promoting and also making cals into longer rides with all the benefits that brings and nothing else; there is certainly no means of valdating your proposal under the new system. AAA's will continue to only be available to proper perms and calendar events.

Tom; you should be able to get the 3AAAs and 2 AUK points under the new system; I certainly intend to do so with the lesser El Supremo version in August.

Re: DIY add ons to Perms
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2009, 08:46:46 am »
sorry MSeries; you cannot combine a Calendar add-on ride with anything other than a calendar event  :( it's very much intended as a means of both promoting and also making cals into longer rides with all the benefits that brings and nothing else; there is certainly no means of valdating your proposal under the new system. AAA's will continue to only be available to proper perms and calendar events.

Tom; you should be able to get the 3AAAs and 2 AUK points under the new system; I certainly intend to do so with the lesser El Supremo version in August.

What is the mechanism I need to use to get this working then. Allowing the same system to work for Perm Add ons will IMO promote perms and make them into longer rides.

Re: DIY add ons to Perms
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2009, 10:50:40 am »
Allowing the same system to work for Perm Add ons will IMO promote perms and make them into longer rides.

Exactly, there are some perms I'd love to ride but don't have a car to drive to the start. A 6am start for 300 Perm (to make it easier to find suitable controls) means either an overnight stay nearby (£££) or, preferably, riding to/from the start. And for the same reason as riding to/from a calendar event, I'd like to get credit for riding the extra kilometers within the timelimits.

I understand that Perms can't be extended under the new system, but what's to stop AUK extending these rules to cover DIY+Perms in the future? As long as people are encouraged to ride calendar events in preference to their own perms where appropriate (for example, I wouldn't do a DIY 200 up to Cambridge and back if there was a 100km or 200km Audax in Henham/Ugley that weekend).

I was hoping to ride the Cheddar Gorge 300 some time after LEL (I can't get to Witney for 6am by train), probably by riding the 100km to the start1 and 100km home again to make it into a 500 (strangely drawn to this distance even after reading arabella's write up of her DIY 500). I can't guarantee I'll finish the ride in time to get a train home, so that either means booking a second night's accommodation or riding back. Obviously I can forego the 2 extra points and ride the two 100km legs as individual DIYs, but I'd prefer 5 points (plus the AAA) for doing a 500 not just the 3 points (plus AAA).

If the CG300 was running as a calendar event this year then I'd aim to wrap it up as a DIY+Calendar but it's not running this year. It also tends to be on/around Mrs G's birthday.

1. A Saturday 1am start would give me 5 hours to do the 100km to Witney to coincide with a normal 6am-ish start of a 300. The full 21 hours for the CG300 means a 3am latest finish, and then give me a leisurely 9 hours to do the 100km home by midday. Ideally I'd be able to catch a short nap somewhere after finishing the CG300 route before the leg home.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: DIY add ons to Perms
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2009, 11:00:35 am »
Yup. I'd prefer to ride 50 to a start of a perm, ride the perm then 50km home that to do a 200km DIY from home. Why ? AAA points. Now that high scores of AAAs are easier to get and the Hall of Fame or AAA Award needs more points and shorter AAA rides are unchanged, for those of us who don't have easy access to the longer AAA rides such as the BCM, Elenith etc, we'd have to ride more shorter events to get the personal AAA Award. This will take time out of riding longer events to collect regular points, thus I am investigating a way of getting both at once, just like the Cal+DIY system.

My question wasn't directed at Martin and I understand his work is for DIY+Cals only. What do we have to do to have an administrator for DIY+perms

Weirdy Biker

Re: DIY add ons to Perms
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2009, 11:00:45 am »
GB - simple solution.

Find someone to put in a proposal to the committee and who would be willing to take on the responsibility that Martin has taken on.

I am not sure what reaction perm+perm addons would get.  I recall there were already muttering at the AGM about how permanents and DIYs were diluting the status and viability of calendar events.  The DIY+calendar addresses some of those concerns.  Perm+Perm most definitely wouldn't.

Re: DIY add ons to Perms
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2009, 11:03:53 am »
GB - simple solution.

Find someone to put in a proposal to the committee and who would be willing to take on the responsibility that Martin has taken on.

I am not sure what reaction perm+perm addons would get.  I recall there were already muttering at the AGM about how permanents and DIYs were diluting the status and viability of calendar events.  The DIY+calendar addresses some of those concerns.  Perm+Perm most definitely wouldn't.


AUK is a club run by and for it's members. If people want this then they should have it. Did the DIY+Cal need a proposal to the committee ?

If calendar organisers want more riders, then they ought to think about starting at places and times that are accessible by public transport. A midday start 400 is ideal as is an evening start 300. DIY+Perm and DIY+Cal is IMO happening because people can't get to calendar events without a motor vehicle and want to make their rides count for something, else they may as well do a DIY from home and forget about the calendar event. The fact that people want these things tells me that people do not want to forget about calendar events.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: DIY add ons to Perms
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2009, 11:07:35 am »
AUK is a club run by and for it's members. If people want this then they should have it. Did the DIY+Cal need a proposal to the committee ?
I don't know the full behind-the-scenes, but I know MartinM looked into this and there was clearly a market for the DIY+Cal. (In fact they were already being ridden, but ... you know the rest!)

So I guess if enough of you want to ride these DIY+AAAPerms, and suitable volunteer is found ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: DIY add ons to Perms
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2009, 11:42:51 am »
GB - simple solution.

Find someone to put in a proposal to the committee and who would be willing to take on the responsibility that Martin has taken on.

True, and I'm seriously considering offering my services to do this.

I can see the point of view that some people have regarding DIYs and Perms, however I tend to use them as a last resort. If there's a calendar ride that is relatively easy to get to then I'll plan on doing it. If there's only one weekend I'm free in a certain month, and the only calendar rides that weekend are 400 miles away in Scotland then I'll be riding a DIY or a Perm.

If some people are riding just DIYs and Perms then the reasons why need to be uncovered, rather than just assuming that DIYs are detrimental to calendar rides. Maybe, like one person I know of, only rides DIYs because they work weekends. If DIYs or Perms didn't exist then there'd be little point for him being an Audax UK member.

I'm sure there are people who prefer riding DIYs to calendar events, AUK isn't exactly filled with the most sociable and extroverted bunch of people, but getting rid (I know you're not suggesting that) of DIY rides isn't the way to solve this problem as it just punishes people who do use them "responsibly".

I'll can quite happily go through all of the DIY rides I've done and explain why I did them. This year I've done 4 DIYs, three covered by mid-week 3 day ride up to Edinburgh to recce the LEL route for my piece of mind (doing this didn't stop me riding The Dean less than two weeks later that month as I'd originally planned). The other one was a 100km Calendar event wrapped up into a DIY 200. I've got one planned for a couple of weeks time to cover making the Dun Run into a DIY 400 by riding to Dunwich and back, I'm still planning on riding LEL 3 weeks after that and possibly even doing a Grimpeur 100 in between those too/two.

Last season I did 7 DIYs. One was a DIY 600 including a Calendar 300 to get an SR (as I'd packed on a calendar 600 the month before). The 300 was London to Thorne to look at the LEL route (and I'd planned on doing the top half this year but ended up being able to do the whole thing).  One 100 was to get home from Oxford the day after riding The Dean. One 200 was the same February 100km Calendar ride extended to a DIY 200. This leaves a one way 100km ride up to Cambridge to go watch CUFC beat Wycombe in the FA Cup Third Round. Another one way 100 up to Cambridge to visit family. Finally, the November 200 was a DIY 200 as there wasn't a single calendar event that weekend (the online results list has nothing for 17th or 18th November 2007).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: DIY add ons to Perms
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2009, 11:54:47 am »
No one needs to justify their choice of rides. I make use of DIYs as you'll see if you look at my lists for the last four years, (member number 4778), I make no apology for it. Being car free makes getting to many events in time impossible at a sensible cost in terms of money and time. However not all of my DIYs are from my doorstep. I'd be able to do more calendar events if they didn't start at 08:00 or 06:00 on a Sunday morning.

Even when I wasn't car free I used DIYs to get points from rides I wanted to do,  I don't think I have ever chosen to do a DIY or a perm for that matter when it's been possible for me to do a calendar event. Oh yes, twice, the same event in different years where I designed a DIY 200 to follow the route of a calendar event. I entered both, rode it, and went down as  DNS on the calendar event. This was before the DIY+Cal was in place.

But this isn't about DIY or perms  in favour of calendar events.


If DIYs were abandoned I'd see about getting the local Mesh extended to my town and do those instead. Wouldn't change the number of calendar rides that I do.

Weirdy Biker

Re: DIY add ons to Perms
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2009, 12:49:09 pm »
Quote
I don't know the full behind-the-scenes, but I know MartinM looked into this and there was clearly a market for the DIY+Cal. (In fact they were already being ridden, but ... you know the rest!)

I believe Martin discussed it with the Committee.  He will no doubt suggest who but I would suggest Steve Snook and John Ward be consulted.

Quote
AUK is a club run by and for it's members. If people want this then they should have it. Did the DIY+Cal need a proposal to the committee ?

Proposal was the wrong word.  Consult would have been better.

PS: I'm in favour of the DIY+perm idea, myself.  My post was simply pointing out that it might not be welcomed by all.

Quote
If some people are riding just DIYs and Perms then the reasons why need to be uncovered

My sense from the AGM was that riders who came to AUK in the noughties tend to be more relaxed about the role of permanents (including DIYs).  Particularly those who are very active riders.  Maybe there is a recognition that the additional flexibility fits better with modern life?