Author Topic: Grip with Marathon Plus?  (Read 4162 times)

Oaky

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Grip with Marathon Plus?
« on: 05 November, 2009, 08:02:14 pm »
Hi,

I recently fitted a new set of 28mm Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres to my commute/hack/etc. bike, to replace the 38mm Specialized Nimbus that I had on there previously (I was replacing my rear wheel anyway so used this as the opportunity to move the bulletproof tyres on).

One thing I did notice when out for a quick test spin was that the rear wheel seemed more prone to locking up under braking than previously.

How are Marathon Plus considered, grip-wise?

It is quite possible that the locking up is not M+ related:  I could think of at least three other factors:-

1. They are new tyres therefore the mould release compound has not been washed/scuffed away yet
2. I was probably running them at slightly too high a pressure (I'd pumped them to maximum, whilst fitting, to assist with final bead-seating manipulations).
3. The new rear rim is a tiny bit wider than the old.  Although the V-brake blocks have ample clearance to the rim,  the brake biting point comes sooner - maybe I just haven't got a feel for it again yet?



You are in a maze of twisty flat droves, all alike.

85.4 miles from Marsh Gibbon

Audax Club Mid-Essex Fire Safety Officer
http://acme.bike

Jacomus

  • My favourite gender neutral pronoun is comrade
Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #1 on: 05 November, 2009, 08:11:21 pm »
In my uneducated opinion I blame the tyre width.

Frequent lock ups of rear on 23mm Vittoria Open Pave - designed for wet weather ie soft as butter vs. Only intended lock ups on 60mm Shwalbe SuperMotos (with a more powerful brake).
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Biggsy

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Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #2 on: 05 November, 2009, 08:14:01 pm »
2
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pdm

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Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #3 on: 05 November, 2009, 08:17:59 pm »
I have several incarnations of M+, Marathon and Marathon Supreme. I run them at fairly high pressure, being a lardy sort of guy...

Grip wise in the wet, I would rate them out of 10:

M Supreme - 9: Very good
M - 8: Good
M+ 7: Good but not the best

YMMV  ;)

Oaky

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Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #4 on: 05 November, 2009, 08:23:21 pm »
In my uneducated opinion I blame the tyre width.

Frequent lock ups of rear on 23mm Vittoria Open Pave - designed for wet weather ie soft as butter vs. Only intended lock ups on 60mm Shwalbe SuperMotos (with a more powerful brake).

I considered this explanation too - I couldn't decide which factor would win (in determining the point at which grip was lost) between the decreased area of the contact patch with the 28s versus the increased contact pressure (since the total loading over the contact patch is the same in both cases).
You are in a maze of twisty flat droves, all alike.

85.4 miles from Marsh Gibbon

Audax Club Mid-Essex Fire Safety Officer
http://acme.bike

Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #5 on: 05 November, 2009, 08:37:45 pm »
I find Marathon Plus lock up more frequently than other tyres and I'm running 1.5 inches. Never had a similar problem when I ran Specialized tyres
It didn't look at all like that in the photographs

border-rider

Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #6 on: 05 November, 2009, 11:59:45 pm »
The Nimbus 38s are a lot wider than the M+ 28s, aren't they ? I went from Nimbus 38s to M+ 35s, and the M+s are narrower

Gandalf

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Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #7 on: 06 November, 2009, 06:44:39 am »
How weird, funnily enough I'm running Marathon Plus just for this week and I have found the back locking up a bit. 

Due a fettling mishap on my regular commuting bike I've borrowed my son -in-laws bike.  It is identical to mine (Carrera Kraken,bought simultaneously) apart from the tyres.  I have 1.6 " Conti Sports contacts and his has 1.75 " M+

On balance I prefer the M+ but tbh I think it's just the extra size soaking up the potholes better, but they do feel a lot more sure footed.

mattc

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Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #8 on: 06 November, 2009, 08:38:31 am »
Contact patch size x tyre pressure = rig weight* ( x some constant)

(*probably as good as constant)

This is O-level physics <\cliched old duffer>

Note the absence of tyre width in that equation. That's all I'm saying on this ...
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Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #9 on: 06 November, 2009, 10:08:52 am »
I've not noticed that problem.  I run 28s on solo and 32s on the tandem.  I'm currently on Pasela TG 28s, but haven't noticed a difference.
Getting there...

Oaky

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Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #10 on: 06 November, 2009, 10:11:52 am »
Contact patch size x tyre pressure = rig weight* ( x some constant)

(*probably as good as constant)

This is O-level physics <\cliched old duffer>

Note the absence of tyre width in that equation. That's all I'm saying on this ...

But contact patch size is (to a first approximation) proportional to the tyre width, no?

(actually, to a very first approximation (for any curved tyre that doesn't deform...), the contact patch size is zero, or rather infinitesimally small, ).
You are in a maze of twisty flat droves, all alike.

85.4 miles from Marsh Gibbon

Audax Club Mid-Essex Fire Safety Officer
http://acme.bike

Chris S

Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #11 on: 06 November, 2009, 10:18:38 am »
Having just switched to Winter Mode on the Pompino, which means M+ 25s, I've noticed a much harsher ride compared to the GP 4 Seasons that I've had on there since March.

Whilst I've not noticed them being susceptible to skidding, I have noticed that the harder ride can make the back wheel bounce across rough surfaces which, when cornering, can certainly focus one's attention in a hurry.

They are heavy, but as I managed to ride 50km at close to a 28kph average on them yesterday, that doesn't seem to be a factor - at least when it's flat terrain. They are a bugger to grind uphill though.

border-rider

Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #12 on: 06 November, 2009, 10:21:34 am »
Contact patch size x tyre pressure = rig weight* ( x some constant)

(*probably as good as constant)

This is O-level physics <\cliched old duffer>

Note the absence of tyre width in that equation. That's all I'm saying on this ...

But contact patch size is (to a first approximation) proportional to the tyre width, no?

(actually, to a very first approximation (for any curved tyre that doesn't deform...), the contact patch size is zero, or rather infinitesimally small, ).

yes - it depends on pressure.  In  general (not always) bigger tyres are run at lower pressure. The shape of the contact patch also matters a bit, I think; on wider tyres it'll tend to be wider than on thinner ones.

Practically, try skidding a 19 mm tyre and a 40 mm tyre...

The Mechanic

Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #13 on: 06 November, 2009, 10:23:27 am »
I guess the old adage applies here.  The Harder read "more robust" compount, the less the grip and vv. 

Oaky

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Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #14 on: 06 November, 2009, 10:50:29 am »
Contact patch size x tyre pressure = rig weight* ( x some constant)

(*probably as good as constant)

This is O-level physics <\cliched old duffer>

Note the absence of tyre width in that equation. That's all I'm saying on this ...

But contact patch size is (to a first approximation) proportional to the tyre width, no?

(actually, to a very first approximation (for any curved tyre that doesn't deform...), the contact patch size is zero, or rather infinitesimally small, ).

Actually, thinking about this a but longer I think my O-level (and beyond  :-[) physics may have let me down.

My intuition was that the threshold where static friction would give way would depend on the pressure exerted on the ground by the tyre --- it does --- but it also depends on the area in such a way that both factors cancel (mattc's equation above boils it down exactly) leaving you with a constant multiplied by the downward force (i.e. the rig weight) ...  the RHS of his equation is independent of the contatc patch size, and is (for the correct (material dependent) constant) then equal to the maximum horizontal force before static friction gives way and the tyre starts to slide.

The "constant" in question is certainly dependent on the tyre compound (and the road surface material/conditions etc.).

That said,  I still think that something in the above may be too simplistic an approximation.

Echoing MV's comment upthread -- I notice a fair difference between the propensity to lock up on my road bike's 25s compared to the 38s that used to be on this rig.  The M+ 28s still seemed more keen to slip than I'd have imagined from the two data points I have (not as extreme as 19mm and 40mm difference, but certainly noticeable).
You are in a maze of twisty flat droves, all alike.

85.4 miles from Marsh Gibbon

Audax Club Mid-Essex Fire Safety Officer
http://acme.bike

Jacomus

  • My favourite gender neutral pronoun is comrade
Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #15 on: 06 November, 2009, 12:49:54 pm »
Contact patch size x tyre pressure = rig weight* ( x some constant)

(*probably as good as constant)

This is O-level physics <\cliched old duffer>

Note the absence of tyre width in that equation. That's all I'm saying on this ...

But contact patch size is (to a first approximation) proportional to the tyre width, no?

(actually, to a very first approximation (for any curved tyre that doesn't deform...), the contact patch size is zero, or rather infinitesimally small, ).

yes - it depends on pressure.  In  general (not always) bigger tyres are run at lower pressure. The shape of the contact patch also matters a bit, I think; on wider tyres it'll tend to be wider than on thinner ones.

Practically, try skidding a 19 mm tyre and a 40 mm tyre...

I think I'm being brain-dead - help!

Are you saying that skidding a 19mm tyre is easier than a 40mm?

Because I have found that skidding a 24mm significantly easier than skidding a 60mm.
 ??? :(
"The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity." Amelia Earhart

border-rider

Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #16 on: 06 November, 2009, 12:51:53 pm »
Are you saying that skidding a 19mm tyre is easier than a 40mm?

Yes - usually

Sorry, reading my post again it wasn't clear what the point was, was it ?

:)

Quote
Because I have found that skidding a 24mm significantly easier than skidding a 60mm.

Agreed.  

Jacomus

  • My favourite gender neutral pronoun is comrade
Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #17 on: 06 November, 2009, 01:03:22 pm »
Are you saying that skidding a 19mm tyre is easier than a 40mm?

Yes - usually

Sorry, reading my post again it wasn't clear what the point was, was it ?

:)

Quote
Because I have found that skidding a 24mm significantly easier than skidding a 60mm.

Agreed.  

 :)
"The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity." Amelia Earhart

RJ

  • Droll rat
Re: Grip with Marathon Plus?
« Reply #18 on: 06 November, 2009, 01:44:50 pm »
Hi,

I recently fitted a new set of 28mm Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres to my commute/hack/etc. bike, to replace the 38mm Specialized Nimbus that I had on there previously (I was replacing my rear wheel anyway so used this as the opportunity to move the bulletproof tyres on).

One thing I did notice when out for a quick test spin was that the rear wheel seemed more prone to locking up under braking than previously.

How are Marathon Plus considered, grip-wise?

It is quite possible that the locking up is not M+ related:  I could think of at least three other factors:-

1. They are new tyres therefore the mould release compound has not been washed/scuffed away yet
2. I was probably running them at slightly too high a pressure (I'd pumped them to maximum, whilst fitting, to assist with final bead-seating manipulations).
3. The new rear rim is a tiny bit wider than the old.  Although the V-brake blocks have ample clearance to the rim,  the brake biting point comes sooner - maybe I just haven't got a feel for it again yet?





I run (admittedly fat) M+ as close to maximum pressure as having time to check and top them up allows. 

Changes in bike behaviour under braking tend in my case to be related to changes in brake set-up. 

Don't rule out 3 (possibly in combination with other factors).