Author Topic: AAA calculation  (Read 7070 times)

AAA calculation
« on: May 18, 2010, 10:26:31 am »
Does anyone really know how the AAA calculation system works?

I grasp the basics, that there's a specific threshold that a ride (depebdant on distance) has to meet.
But then there's the fudge factor if it doesn't - i.e. the 100km section rule.

It strikes me that the 100km bit can actually be detrimental.

I've gone through the handbook, but there's nothing comprehensive there.
where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2010, 10:42:59 am »
It's not perfect, but nothing can be, but it's better, and simpler (in my opinion), than the previous system.

Audax Altitude Award is linked from the Audax UK website and should contain useful info.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2010, 11:36:30 am »
For example:

200km needs 3000m of climbing to qualify for any AAA points but if it has 1500m in a 100km section then it'll qualify for 1.5 points as if the 100km section was a standalone 100km event.  That's my understanding anyway. I ain't going to sweat  it too much, leave it to the AAA Man.

In what way do you consider the 100km bit detrimental ?

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2010, 12:22:37 pm »
.............

In what way do you consider the 100km bit detrimental ?

I don't really understand why the use of 100km is used as a yard stick on rides of 200km and over.

We have rides of 50km that qualify for AAA, so why not use that? Afterall, the same climb rate applies. And using 50km might actually give a more representative indication of hilliness.

Why do we also only consider one 100km secton in (say) a 400km ride, when it might have two 100km sections that qualify?
where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2010, 12:33:45 pm »
.............

In what way do you consider the 100km bit detrimental ?

I don't really understand why the use of 100km is used as a yard stick on rides of 200km and over.

Is it ? I would have thought that if for example a 400km ride has less than 5100m of climb, but with more than 2800m in a 200km section then it would qualify for at least 2.75 points for that 200km section or, if it had two 100km sections with more than 1500m each then it would get AAAs for both 100km sections. I don't know why 'sections' are limited to 100km. This is just my interpretation of what I read on the pages that Greenbank linked to.

Quote
We have rides of 50km that qualify for AAA, so why not use that? Afterall, the same climb rate applies. And using 50km might actually give a more representative indication of hilliness.

Why do we also only consider one 100km secton in (say) a 400km ride, when it might have two 100km sections that qualify?

do we though ? as I said above ?

I asked the question elsewhere in these boards, why we can't do DIY Perms of 50km to get AAA points with the GPS validations, since we have 50km Perms with AAA points. If we get AAA/GPS/DIY validations rolled out, I'll ask again.

I thought it was up to the event organisers to work these things out and ask the AAA Man for approval.  Test the system.

Weirdy Biker

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2010, 01:59:04 pm »
Is there a reason for asking?

I might have a problem with my 200km event.  I suspect it may cease to qualify for AAA unless I tweak the route (due to a flat 30km stage).

If, however, I started the event at a different location (currently at 140km) I suspect it would qualify based on the "shorter distance of at least 100km with sufficient climb rule".  This is because that flat section would then be at the end of the ride, and so chopped out of the AAA calc.

One of the quirks of the approach taken.  Whether it is "fair" or "sensible" is a moot point, given riders do the same amount of climbing, but thems the rules.

mattc

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Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2010, 02:24:27 pm »
Why do we also only consider one 100km secton in (say) a 400km ride, when it might have two 100km sections that qualify?
I can only guess that this procedure was drafted without consideration for two SEPARATE sections.

The wording certainly seems to allow a single section of 200k (or 130, or 230 ... ) within your 400.

Try submitting the details to the AAA man and see if it flies?!?
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Weirdy Biker

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2010, 02:58:53 pm »
My understanding was, historically, that only one AAA section applied per route.

Who but the AAA man knows if this is the case.  It might even have changed with the move away from the complicated AAA formula to a per metre climbed approach.

Martin

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 08:25:03 pm »
Is there a reason for asking?

I might have a problem with my 200km event.  I suspect it may cease to qualify for AAA unless I tweak the route (due to a flat 30km stage).

with 3250m overall?  :o that's at least 400 over the minimum

Weirdy Biker

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2010, 08:43:52 pm »
Is there a reason for asking?

I might have a problem with my 200km event.  I suspect it may cease to qualify for AAA unless I tweak the route (due to a flat 30km stage).

with 3250m overall?  :o that's at least 400 over the minimum


Surrey, Sussex and Kent got 25% flatter over the winter.  Apparently.

If confirmed I'll either run it as is.  Or do what Tim Wainright did with the Battle and Back, criss crossing the North Downs, in a revised route.

Martin

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2010, 08:45:57 pm »
Is there a reason for asking?

I might have a problem with my 200km event.  I suspect it may cease to qualify for AAA unless I tweak the route (due to a flat 30km stage).

with 3250m overall?  :o that's at least 400 over the minimum


Surrey, Sussex and Kent got 25% flatter over the winter.  Apparently.

bung us a gpx and I'll see what it comes up with

Weirdy Biker

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2010, 08:49:16 pm »
Is there a reason for asking?

I might have a problem with my 200km event.  I suspect it may cease to qualify for AAA unless I tweak the route (due to a flat 30km stage).

with 3250m overall?  :o that's at least 400 over the minimum


Surrey, Sussex and Kent got 25% flatter over the winter.  Apparently.

bung us a gpx and I'll see what it comes up with

Available for download at:  William the Conkerer (Randonneur UK)

What the AAA man says will be taken as chapter and verse.  No point debating.  I have already sketched out an alternative route just in case.  But would need to test ride it to check it is a nice route.

Martin

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2010, 09:33:42 pm »
2414m is what the official thingy doofer says  :(

could always make it a 150; the old B&B 150 only just scraped by

Weirdy Biker

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2010, 09:35:33 pm »
2414m is what the official thingy doofer says  :(

could always make it a 150; the old B&B 150 only just scraped by

I'll probably end up tweaking the route.  We'll see though - I'm playing around with it at the moment.

That said, the current 200 is a very nice route and removing the shackle of forcing it over some hills will open up the possibility of an even nicer route (in particular avoiding Crowborough).

Martin

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2010, 09:42:43 pm »
2414m is what the official thingy doofer says  :(

could always make it a 150; the old B&B 150 only just scraped by

I'll probably end up tweaking the route.  We'll see though - I'm playing around with it at the moment.

there's lots of potential, it doesn't go up the top of the Forest for a start; I thought you were also taking it up Stone Hill near EG. A hilly 100 section after Battle might be more realistic

Weirdy Biker

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 10:02:13 pm »
2414m is what the official thingy doofer says  :(

could always make it a 150; the old B&B 150 only just scraped by

I'll probably end up tweaking the route.  We'll see though - I'm playing around with it at the moment.

there's lots of potential, it doesn't go up the top of the Forest for a start; I thought you were also taking it up Stone Hill near EG. A hilly 100 section after Battle might be more realistic

Panic over.

Martin

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2010, 03:34:02 pm »
2414m is what the official thingy doofer says  :(

could always make it a 150; the old B&B 150 only just scraped by

I'll probably end up tweaking the route.  We'll see though - I'm playing around with it at the moment.

there's lots of potential, it doesn't go up the top of the Forest for a start; I thought you were also taking it up Stone Hill near EG. A hilly 100 section after Battle might be more realistic

Panic over.

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Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2010, 12:58:20 am »
Is there a reason for asking?
I've been looking at the AAA"system" and from what I uderstand, if a ride doesn't qualify for AAA points when considering it's entire distance, then a proportion of the ride (100km) section maybe considered.

So let's consider a 300km ride, if it had 4000m of climb over it's entire length, it would qualify for altitude points - How many I don't know. (I presume 1).

But if it had a lower amount of climb in a 100km section, what's the threshold in terms of metres climb?

Or to put it another way, in a 300km event - how much climbing would need to be done in a 100km setion to qualify for (say) 0.25 AAA points?
where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2010, 07:09:15 am »
Is there a reason for asking?
I've been looking at the AAA"system" and from what I uderstand, if a ride doesn't qualify for AAA points when considering it's entire distance, then a proportion of the ride (100km) section maybe considered.

So let's consider a 300km ride, if it had 4000m of climb over it's entire length, it would qualify for altitude points - How many I don't know. (I presume 1).

But if it had a lower amount of climb in a 100km section, what's the threshold in terms of metres climb?

Or to put it another way, in a 300km event - how much climbing would need to be done in a 100km setion to qualify for (say) 0.25 AAA points?

AAA points are calculated as 1 point per 1000m climb, once the threshold is reached. So your 300km route with  4000m of climb, presuming 4000m is the threshold for 300km routes, would get 4 AAA points.

It is my uinderstanding that a 100km section that has more 1500m of climb, since 1500m is the threshold for 100km routes, would get 1.5 AAA points. It's not possible to get less than 1.5 AAAs any more except on entire routes that are less that 100km in lengths. Sections must be 100km long or longer.

.25 AAAas implies 250m of climb and that is below any threshold, 50km routes need 750m of climb to qualify, then they'd get .75 points. Remember though we can't have sections shorter than 100km, only complete routes and we can't do DIY perms that short either.

Finally, I may be off the mark completely, it's just my understanding on the AAA Mans web pages, if it's this confusing, perhaps it needs to be rewritten.

vorsprung

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Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2010, 11:29:05 am »

I've been looking at the AAA"system" and from what I uderstand, if a ride doesn't qualify for AAA points when considering it's entire distance, then a proportion of the ride (100km) section maybe considered.

So let's consider a 300km ride, if it had 4000m of climb over it's entire length, it would qualify for altitude points - How many I don't know. (I presume 1).

I presume 4 as it is 1 point per 1,000 metres ascent
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Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2010, 11:40:26 am »
A 300km ride with 4000m of climbing doesn't qualify for AAA points as a 300km ride needs (from memory since the AAA website is dead) 4200m of climbing to begin to qualify. 4199m and nothing. 4200m and 4.25AAA points. Harsh but it's an edge case.

A 300km ride with 5240m of climbing does qualify in its entirety so it gets 5.25AAA points (1AAA point per 1000m with some rounding up).

A 300km ride with 4000m of climbing, but split as:
* first 100km section has 1000m climbing (no AAA, below the 1500m threshold for a 100km section):
* second 100km section with 2000m climbing (does qualify as 2000m > 1500m, 2000m = 2AAA)
* third 100km section with 1000m climbing (no AAA, below the 1500m threshold for a 100km section).
* so this ride gets 2AAA because of its lumpy section.

The unanswered question is whether a 300km ride with 4000m of climbing split as this:-
* first 100km section with 1750m climbing (1.75AAA as it is over the 1500m threshold for a 100km section)
* middle 100km section with only 500m climbing (no AAA)
* last 100km section with 1750m climbing (1.75AAA as it is over the 1500m threshold for a 100km section again)
* so does this ride get 3.5AAA? or can it only count just one lumpy section?

I'm hoping it can count both, there's no reason why it shouldn't, I guess it comes down to what the AAA man sayeth.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2010, 12:33:37 pm »
Thank you for this Alex. It explains everything I didn't understand. You have been a great help.

One thing that worries me throughout many of the threads - and it's not a criticism of the contributors, it's loosely based on "That's how I understand it, but to be sure you'd need to run it past  the AAA man".

One of the reasons so many of my rides were struck-off the AAA list, was they didn't have enough climbing - fair enough. But that was because the system has never really been explained to me.

I fully realise that all work done by AUK officers, organisers and helpers is voluntary. But If someone volunteers to do something, I don't think it's unreasonable that they make a convincing job of their set task. The AAA system is still a bit of a black art and when reached, the final set-up still seems far from satisfactory.

From what I can make of it, the AAA system is no better now than when it was changed a couple of years ago. There have been no realistic improvements.

Gets off soapbox ;)

PS 4000m is the threshold for a 300km ride, according to the AUK AAA site.
where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Martin

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2010, 01:17:48 pm »
The Irish Mail 400 had 2 AAA in 2008 but based on the hilly middle section, it now has a lot more, but only because the overall climbing puts it over the bar. I think the totoal climb was only just over the threshold so under the old system the hilly section bagged more AAA than the 0.25 or whatever it would have got over the whole. Now it gets every metre climbed which is much better.

IMBW but I think the hilly section has to be 100km or more, but if it's longer I think it gets more AAA pro-rata.

Even a nominal 100 ride can benefit from maximum AAA points by the "hilly 100 section" rule; the canny organiser makes sure the flat or downhill bits are at the start and the end.

iakobski

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2010, 01:31:42 pm »
A 300km ride with 4000m of climbing doesn't qualify for AAA points as a 300km ride needs (from memory since the AAA website is dead) 4200m of climbing to begin to qualify. 4199m and nothing. 4200m and 4.25AAA points. Harsh but it's an edge case.

Not really - the AAA is for riding hilly rides, not simply for the amount of climbing. There has to be a threshold between "hilly" and "not hilly". If you climb 1500 m in 100 km that is hilly but if you climb 1500 m in 400 km that is as good as flat. So for long rides, at first glance it looks odd that you jump from zero to 4.25 AAA points, it's because the points are not just for a hilly ride, they are for a long hilly ride.

Quote
* so does this ride get 3.5AAA? or can it only count just one lumpy section?

I'm hoping it can count both, there's no reason why it shouldn't, I guess it comes down to what the AAA man sayeth.

Mmmm. I was just about to post that the answer is no, it has to be continuous, but from the AAA site:
Quote
a continuous section of 100km or more within the event may well be hilly enough and can be included
So it doesn't specifically say you can't include each continuous section of 100 km or more. But further down it says
Quote
If not the whole event, then maybe a section of 100km or longer.
which implies only one section, but it's likely Steve's intention was as you have interpreted it.

From what I can make of it, the AAA system is no better now than when it was changed a couple of years ago. There have been no realistic improvements.

Steve put in a lot of effort when the system was changed and took a lot of input from members. It seems much more straightforward than the old way of doing it and reflects the aims well. But if one of the top AUK orgs in the club and one of the top logical thinkers on yacf have queries about how to implement it, then there is clearly a communication problem which needs sorting.

iakobski

Re: AAA calculation
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2010, 01:33:40 pm »
... downhill bits are at the start and the end.

A ride organised by MC Escher?