Author Topic: A DIY organiser's plea  (Read 34293 times)

A DIY organiser's plea
« on: June 14, 2010, 05:56:23 pm »
As posted on the AUK email list:-

As one of the DIY organisers I find I'm receiving some proposed routes with excessive numbers of controls. 200s with 12 or more and now a 300 with over 20. There is no hard and fast rule, but please be sensible and take note of the guideline that states approx 60k between controls.
In the absence of info on the AUK website you can see brief instructions at www.ukcyclist.co.uk/diy

Regards,

IanH

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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2010, 06:03:00 pm »
>20?! :o Regardless of the work for you, that's a lot of stops to obtain all those little bits of paper (assuming of course this isn't a DIY by GPS).
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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2010, 07:02:43 pm »
Sounds like a right faff for rider and organiser.

Out of interest, was it submitted like that to try and ensure the route was as close to 300km on road as possible?  If so, I suspect the rider will lose more time getting proof of controls (5 mins of stopping) rather than accepting being 20km or so over distance (about an hour on the road).

Manotea

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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2010, 08:18:57 pm »
Sounds like a right faff for rider and organiser.

Not to mention a lot of Mars bars!

eck

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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2010, 09:23:48 pm »
IanH, have any of your proposed DIY routes included info controls?  ??? :-X
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Martin

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2010, 10:08:04 pm »
I suspect Ian means a GPS DIY; no need to obtain anything other than gps proof of having visited each control

problem is a 200km route which goes all over the place on very pleasant roads is very easy to create on bikely / mapsource etc but it's rather harder to measure by the currently accepted method (Autoroute or viamichelin) and record this on a brevet card (paper or electronic) that's what the DIY orgs need to be able to do before we can accept an entry.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2010, 10:22:01 pm »
Yikes, I can't recall the last calendar event I rode with controls on average only every 60km.

I'n the last couple of days I've been fiddling around with a DIY by GPS route trying to keep control points down below 12. The actual route is designed more to go where I want to ride (and in particular via my perfect pub lunch) rather than go a particular distance but it's over 210km. With 11 points (including start/finish as two) the shortest distance is 200.2 which I thought was cutting it fine (in case the organiser uses a different version for eg), a 12th makes it 200.5 and a 13th a more comfortable 202.3

In the case of a DIY by GPS, does it make it easier for the organiser if lat/long coordinates of control points are provided to match up with the track file in due course and/or if the autoroute file is provided in advance for checking?

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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2010, 10:31:45 pm »
Yikes, I can't recall the last calendar event I rode with controls on average only every 60km.

I'n the last couple of days I've been fiddling around with a DIY by GPS route trying to keep control points down below 12. The actual route is designed more to go where I want to ride (and in particular via my perfect pub lunch) rather than go a particular distance but it's over 210km. With 11 points (including start/finish as two) the shortest distance is 200.2 which I thought was cutting it fine (in case the organiser uses a different version for eg), a 12th makes it 200.5 and a 13th a more comfortable 202.3


My 400 only has 5 plus the start/finish, and it only comes out at 413km
Who cares if it is a few km over?  It's not like we are setting a record...BRM events have to be within 5% over distance
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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2010, 10:42:42 pm »
My 400 only has 5 plus the start/finish, and it only comes out at 413km
Who cares if it is a few km over?  It's not like we are setting a record...BRM events have to be within 5% over distance

Personally I'd need at least that many food stops so presumably you've managed to do a 400 with no info controls - that's great work.

The actual distance isn't the problem is it? The problem seems to be the number of points required to get the shortest distance >200km.


Martin

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2010, 10:54:57 pm »
In the case of a DIY by GPS, does it make it easier for the organiser if lat/long coordinates of control points are provided to match up with the track file in due course and/or if the autoroute file is provided in advance for checking?

yes very much as it has all the controls readily identified

assuming your version of AR talks to mine...

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2010, 10:58:06 pm »
Creating a reasonable 300km DIY takes some work.

Requiring 20 controls means you haven't done that work. It's not up to the DIY organiser to do that work.

I've done some DIY 300s. They typically have 6 or so controls. The last 400 ECE I did had 4 controls plus the Calendar ride. It's all about the planning - and that planning is down to the rider.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2010, 10:59:19 pm »
I suspect Ian means a GPS DIY...

No, just going round in circles not far from home. Several controls visited more than twice.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2010, 11:01:41 pm »
IanH, have any of your proposed DIY routes included info controls?  ??? :-X

They can't. Who's going to provide the questions?

eck

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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2010, 11:03:06 pm »
IanH, have any of your proposed DIY routes included info controls?  ??? :-X

They can't. Who's going to provide the questions?
Erm, yes, exactly.  :-X
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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2010, 11:03:37 pm »
I don't get it?

When I was planning a 200k and an 800k every week, I was trying to keep controls to a minimum. I rarely needed more than a start, two intermediate and a finish control for a 200. They were rarely more than 10k over distance too, usualy they were about 10k over. I got one or two at only 2k over.

It looks like people are trying to do their favourite rides as 200k DIYs. It doesn't really work thet well unless your favourite ride is the most direct route between two points that are a good distance apart.
What I usualy did was to do an out and back ride or a loop. You adjust the distance out you travel or alter some controls on the loop to get the right distance, moving the controls to different towns to see what distance comes up. A few minutes of fiddling can get your distance very close to the mark.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2010, 11:06:12 pm »
Creating a reasonable 300km DIY takes some work.

Requiring 20 controls means you haven't done that work. It's not up to the DIY organiser to do that work.

I've done some DIY 300s. They typically have 6 or so controls. The last 400 ECE I did had 4 controls plus the Calendar ride. It's all about the planning - and that planning is down to the rider.

It depends. Depends on how far over distance one is prepared to go, how many other roads exist in the area that could be used to form the shortest route and how much the rider wants to go through particular places. Round here getting a 200 to be less than 210 with only a few controls isn't very easy, there are too many roads and some A roads that you just wouldn't ride on such as the A1. Autoroute selects it so one needs to put some other controls on the paralleling country lanes to a cause Autoroute to use them instead. If you don't, you end up with a route which is ~200km in Autoroute but when ridden is about 230km which in December is not desired. I wouldn't submit  12 or more for a 200 though.

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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2010, 11:11:56 pm »
My December DIY was 228km on the road.
S'only a bike ride, what's an extra 28km between friends?
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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2010, 11:13:33 pm »
Creating a reasonable 300km DIY takes some work.

Requiring 20 controls means you haven't done that work. It's not up to the DIY organiser to do that work.

I've done some DIY 300s. They typically have 6 or so controls. The last 400 ECE I did had 4 controls plus the Calendar ride. It's all about the planning - and that planning is down to the rider.

It depends. Depends on how far over distance one is prepared to go, how many other roads exist in the area that could be used to form the shortest route and how much the rider wants to go through particular places. Round here getting a 200 to be less than 210 with only a few controls isn't very easy, there are too many roads and some A roads that you just wouldn't ride on such as the A1. Autoroute selects it so one needs to put some other controls on the paralleling country lanes to a cause Autoroute to use them instead. If you don't, you end up with a route which is ~200km in Autoroute but when ridden is about 230km which in December is not desired. I wouldn't submit  12 or more for a 200 though.

Hmm... having some A-roads that queer the pitch is a pain. But it's just bad luck. If you can't make it work locally, either accept the over-distance (many of my local 200's are 230+ - just MTFU) or, as you say, add a reasonable number of controls. 20+ controls is unreasonable - even on a 300.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2010, 11:16:40 pm »


It depends. Depends on how far over distance one is prepared to go, how many other roads exist in the area that could be used to form the shortest route and how much the rider wants to go through particular places. Round here getting a 200 to be less than 210 with only a few controls isn't very easy, there are too many roads and some A roads that you just wouldn't ride on such as the A1. Autoroute selects it so one needs to put some other controls on the paralleling country lanes to a cause Autoroute to use them instead. If you don't, you end up with a route which is ~200km in Autoroute but when ridden is about 230km which in December is not desired. I wouldn't submit  12 or more for a 200 though.


I sometimes tried to run parallel with 'orrible roads, but several miles to the side. Autoroute is a funny creature. It still sent me on the 'orrible road, but when I tweaked the route it came out shorter.
It won't always work. Like you say, it depends on where you are. Quite often, the other option would mean lots of tricky navigation, which is OK if you have time to study the route or have a sat-nav. I struck a balance between an easy to navigate route, an enjoyable route, not miles over distance and cut down the 'orrible roads as much as possible. Most of my points chasing was done in Wales and Norfolk/Lincolnshire/Suffolk* for those reasons.


*Quite a lot of quiet A roads and B roads. The Norfolk Coast road was used quite a lot. A lot of people think it a busy road, but it's not bad if you're trying to get somewhere and rolling along at evens-ish.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2010, 11:18:15 pm »
...if you're trying to get somewhere and rolling along at evens-ish.

With respect, this isn't the experience of most randonneurs.

Manotea

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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2010, 11:19:34 pm »
The Orgs need a new charging model, say, 4 controls per 100km included in standard fee, £1 per additional control thereafter.

That should do it.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2010, 11:23:50 pm »
My December DIY was 228km on the road.
S'only a bike ride, what's an extra 28km between friends?

That's what I reckon. There's got to be some give and take. It's handy to be able to ride an event from home, so it only seems right that there could be some penalty to pay. I'd rather go 40k over distance than 1k under.


But you may be pleased to know that I've got our 600k ride for this weekend down to about 605 on googlemaps. ;) ;D

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2010, 11:25:21 pm »


I sometimes tried to run parallel with 'orrible roads, but several miles to the side.

As it happens the stretch of the A1 I am thinking of is currently being upgraded to motorway. To the south of this stretch is about 50km of motorway with the old A1 converted to the A168 and other roads which is about 20m away and is hardly used by motor traffic. I am looking forward t when the Dishforth to Scotch Corner stretch is done.

What is 'evens-ish' ?

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2010, 11:27:56 pm »

What is 'evens-ish' ?

You neither win nor lose - much.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2010, 11:28:41 pm »
...if you're trying to get somewhere and rolling along at evens-ish.

With respect, this isn't the experience of most randonneurs.

In that case, I'd use the back lanes. Very quiet and if you're going slow, then it makes much less difference to your speed because you don't have to keep putting on the brakes to make frequent turns. That is a nuisance if you're riding pretty fast, but if you're riding slow, the Norflk Coast road isn't much fun either.
You pick the best road for your purpose.

What is 'evens-ish' ?

You neither win nor lose - much.