Author Topic: A DIY organiser's plea  (Read 49775 times)

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #175 on: 19 July, 2011, 12:16:16 pm »

Pro-tem visual checking could be facilitated by requiring riders to include the controls (and only the controls) as waypoints in the submitted GPX file (seems reasonable to me). The Org could then see at a glance whether the controls had been hit or not.

Either way the number of controls would not be a significant factor regarding track validation.

It doesn't work like that. The DIY org has to check the gpx on a map and hope that the umpteen controls have been passed through. I'd like to see a recognised maximum per distance to prevent the scenario Rich has just posted

It could work like that, and if it did then the scenario Rich described above simply would not be an issue.

ISTM the choice is whether to fix the minor problem (occasional riders posting 'too many controls') by edict or fix the larger problem (control validation) by process.

RichForrest

  • T'is I, Silverback.
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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #176 on: 19 July, 2011, 12:47:25 pm »
It's not that occasional either. Control amounts are starting to go up.
GPS validation shouldn't be any different to any other ride, there used to be a page that said controls should be about 60km apart and if you had too many you should maybe you should have another go.
A calendar ride would get turned down by the events org with too many controls.

Rich

Martin

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #177 on: 19 July, 2011, 01:02:39 pm »
on a calendar 200 a sensible maximum number of controls is 4 food stops (50-100-150-finish) with maybe an info in between each, 8 for a DIY would therefore seem sensible.

Manotea's approach of putting as many controls into a route to make it fit the distance is against AUK's principle.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #178 on: 19 July, 2011, 01:09:49 pm »
It's not that occasional either. Control amounts are starting to go up.
GPS validation shouldn't be any different to any other ride, there used to be a page that said controls should be about 60km apart and if you had too many you should maybe you should have another go.
A calendar ride would get turned down by the events org with too many controls.

Rich

I agree completely with this.  If it is allowed that GPS DIYs are different we tread a complex path.  This has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere.

But it could become self-policing - as Manotea mentions, miss just one of those 31 controls and the ride cannot be validated even if the total is still overdistance.  Harsh but correct.  I don't think it fair to put the volunteer organisers through the hoop of having to do so much checking, and would support a specification of a maximum number of controls.  Say four per 100km?

Not that I want more rules - just consistent interpretation of such rules and guidelines as we already have.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #179 on: 19 July, 2011, 01:28:40 pm »

I think I have my best one so far, 31 controls on a 400  ::-) ;D
Rich

I presume you have returned it saying it's not up to scratch.

GrahamG

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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #180 on: 19 July, 2011, 01:41:13 pm »
Thought I'd better read through this after submitting my first DIY route attempt to Ian the other week! Think I've got the gist of how to go about it now... just as well 'cos I've two virtual brevet cards left to use ;D
Brummie in exile (may it forever be so)

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #181 on: 19 July, 2011, 01:57:17 pm »
AIUI there are no magic principles associated with the guidence on the number of controls on a route; they are simply pragmatic.

If controls are more then 60~70km apart then folk start worrying about riders jumping on a train, whilst if there are too many then (for traditional calendar/perm events with manual validation/brevidence) neither the validators or riders would wear it.

But such factors are irrelevant for GPS DIY perms for which validation is largely an automated process wherein the only manual component is for the validator to confirm that yes the track does goe thru the controls, and that can be acheived simply by glancing at a map of the GPX showing track and controls, as supported by most every mapping app/website available (and even that down the line will be automated; it's only a matter of time).

As for magic numbers, four per hundred km sounds fine, except the Tour of The Hills 110km calendar event for example has about 10. Was not the fact that DIY GPS can support additional controls necessary for wilder/hilly routes one of the major arguements put forward for their acceptence?

So there are no magic principles and magic numbers are arbitrary, introducing as many problems as they solve.

As noted above GPS DIY riders who specify controls without due consideration are only making problems for themselves but thats their problem. That definately seems like a 'pragmatic principle' which should be documented in the guidelines provided.

I don't believe the approach described above is inconsistent with current practice, or to put it another way, to reject this approach will require more regulation, not less.

Let's solve the larger problem.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #182 on: 19 July, 2011, 04:23:22 pm »

I think I have my best one so far, 31 controls on a 400  ::-) ;D
Rich

I presume you have returned it saying it's not up to scratch.
Surely this is the answer; just applying some common sense/enlightenment where appropriate? Please, please, no more rules!

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #183 on: 19 July, 2011, 04:39:59 pm »

I think I have my best one so far, 31 controls on a 400  ::-) ;D
Rich

I presume you have returned it saying it's not up to scratch.
Surely this is the answer; just applying some common sense/enlightenment where appropriate? Please, please, no more rules!

My point above is that rather than put orgs in a position where they must police the system, reject apps, apply common sense, frame additional rules and guidelines, whatever, we have it in our gift to render the whole issue null and void such that if a rider *for whatever reason* decides they need to define a GPS DIY route with 101 controls then they are quite welcome to; the only person impacted is themselves.

RichForrest

  • T'is I, Silverback.
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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #184 on: 20 July, 2011, 12:25:39 am »
They are not the only person impacted, I have to try and find some places on google before entering them to check the distance.
Cafe X at soinsos garden center is not in any mapping software. If I have to look for half of the controls first it can take a while to do. Add this to the amount of entries received and it will take a day to go through them if you don't answer emails every day.
If the riders put in the grid ref for the more obscure ones it does help, but you still have to type the places/ref's in.
Then you get grid ref's without letters  ;D

All good fun  8)

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #185 on: 20 July, 2011, 01:08:59 am »
The point is that moving to a model where the rider submits a GPX with tracks and waypoints marking controls for uploading into AUK systems for archiving/validation means that the onerous tasks/problems/issues you describe would simply disappear.

Oaky

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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #186 on: 20 July, 2011, 03:34:45 am »
I think I have my best one so far, 31 controls on a 400  ::-) ;D
The trouble is riders try to get the route to follow the exact roads they want to ride.

Maybe if we impose a minimum stationary time at controls for GPS validated rides  ;D... 3 to 5 mins would mean that the 31 controls would cost the rider in question 1.5 -- 2.5 hours... roughly equivalent t the ~50+km overdistance that is often needed on a non-GPS DIY 400 if you don't want to add a load of extra controls into it IME.

In any case that isn't as easy on a non-GPS DIY since you'd often need somewhere in the middle of Norfolknowhere that had ATMs/open shops/garages etc. to have the same luxury of shortening your route and still having it certified.
You are in a maze of twisty flat droves, all alike.

85.4 miles from Marsh Gibbon

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arabella

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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #187 on: 20 July, 2011, 11:36:17 am »
They are not the only person impacted, I have to try and find some places on google before entering them to check the distance.
Cafe X at soinsos garden center is not in any mapping software. If I have to look for half of the controls first it can take a while to do. Add this to the amount of entries received and it will take a day to go through them if you don't answer emails every day.
If the riders put in the grid ref for the more obscure ones it does help, but you still have to type the places/ref's in.
Then you get grid ref's without letters  ;D

All good fun  8)
There used to be some criterion for a DIY control to be acceptable "must appear on xxxx" (but I forgot xxxx)  I doubt this was ever repealed.
Suspect the problem is that GPX means you can have a corner at random X in the middle of nowhere.

Googlemaps gives you the option of emailing/copying the url of your route - would that work in this case?
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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #188 on: 20 July, 2011, 11:50:30 am »
The point is that moving to a model where the rider submits a GPX with tracks and waypoints marking controls for uploading into AUK systems for archiving/validation means that the onerous tasks/problems/issues you describe would simply disappear.

What we have to check is the shortest distance between controls. Loadsa controls makes that much more tedious, and, as has been said, ain't really in the spirit of audax riding.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #189 on: 20 July, 2011, 12:04:36 pm »
Per control pricing? £3 gets you 2 intermediate controls per 100km validated (start and finish thown in for free and that's CMOT :thumbsup:), Every extra control adds £1 onto the cost.

A 300km with 6 intermediate controls = £3
A 300km with 8 intermediate controls = £5
A 400km with 31 intermediate controls = £26

That should soon sort the problem out. And would be easy to build into the submission form.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #190 on: 20 July, 2011, 12:10:32 pm »
Per control pricing? £3 gets you 2 intermediate controls per 100km validated (start and finish thown in for free and that's CMOT :thumbsup:), Every extra control adds £1 onto the cost.

A 300km with 6 intermediate controls = £3
A 300km with 8 intermediate controls = £5
A 400km with 31 intermediate controls = £26

That should soon sort the problem out. And would be easy to build into the submission form.

It doesn't reduce the workload - We're volunteers  with other stuff to do, and it doesn't deal with this:-
...ain't really in the spirit of audax riding.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #191 on: 20 July, 2011, 12:14:06 pm »
I was thinking more of it putting people off from sending in silly amounts of control points rather than making the orgs extra money. Once someone sees it's going to cost them £20 they'll probably think about reducing the number of points.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #192 on: 20 July, 2011, 12:15:32 pm »
I was thinking more of it putting people off from sending in silly amounts of control points rather than making the orgs extra money. Once someone sees it's going to cost them £20 they'll probably think about reducing the number of points.

Cyclists are notoriously tight.

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #193 on: 20 July, 2011, 12:19:53 pm »
That's what it relies on.

RichForrest

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Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #194 on: 29 July, 2011, 12:58:20 am »
I had another one today which first thought was how many controls, 41!!!
Looking at it properly though, it all adds up to 3336km.
That's how it should be done  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #195 on: 29 July, 2011, 06:16:54 pm »
What we have to check is the shortest distance between controls. Loadsa controls makes that much more tedious

Would it be helpful if a .AXE (Autoroute) file of the proposed route (specifically with the controls in as "stops") was sent to the DIY Org? Then the task of checking the shortest route would be very much easier.

I realise this can't be mandated because not everyone has Microsoft Autoroute, but if it makes it easier for the route checker then I'm happy to e-mail an Autoroute file.
You're only as successful as your last 1200...

RichForrest

  • T'is I, Silverback.
    • Ramblings of a silverback cyclist
Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #196 on: 29 July, 2011, 06:30:00 pm »
If your org has autoroute that is compatible, you can send him a file with the controls in. I do the same with Martin and entries can be sent just before you ride knowing that they are ok for distance
Send your org an axe file and I'll check if it opens ok ;D

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #197 on: 29 July, 2011, 06:33:20 pm »
I had another one today which first thought was how many controls, 41!!!
Looking at it properly though, it all adds up to 3336km.
That's how it should be done  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Marcus?

 ;D :thumbsup:

Martin

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #198 on: 29 July, 2011, 10:22:53 pm »
if anyone has any unwanted Andy Uttley's (or mine) DIY cards and wants to go GPS I'll happily exchange them; as soon as I get a new stock in they are gone, is there a big event on this year?

marcus

Re: A DIY organiser's plea
« Reply #199 on: 30 July, 2011, 10:39:43 am »
I had another one today which first thought was how many controls, 41!!!
Looking at it properly though, it all adds up to 3336km.
That's how it should be done  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Marcus?

 ;D :thumbsup:

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