Author Topic: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.  (Read 20966 times)

Rhys W

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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #100 on: 06 February, 2012, 03:55:49 pm »

pdm

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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #101 on: 06 February, 2012, 04:45:46 pm »
So the conclusion of the report seems to be:

Meat contamination was deemed pretty unlikely.
Transfusion contamination was deemed unlikely (although there may have been evidence for transfusions having taken place, this is not what the case was about and so ignored).
The likely cause for the failed test was deemed "supplement contamination" (though no-one seems to know what "supplements" they were or if they were legal/illegal).

Still, "on the balance of probabilities", Contador's defense fails so he is classified guilty.

Bit  of a dog's dinner, really!  :P

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simonp

Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #102 on: 06 February, 2012, 09:06:58 pm »
No, it’s really simple. They don’t have to prove anything. He has to prove that it was inadvertent. I think the most likely cause in reality, rather than on a strict legal basis, is autologous blood doping and he’d used clen in his training and not allowed sufficient time for it to clear his system.

It matters not, since the principle is of strict liability, and he was unable to provide any evidence of any other source. The beef theory was pretty desperate, IMO.

Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #103 on: 06 February, 2012, 11:03:46 pm »
No, it’s really simple. They don’t have to prove anything. He has to prove that it was inadvertent. I think the most likely cause in reality, rather than on a strict legal basis, is autologous blood doping and he’d used clen in his training and not allowed sufficient time for it to clear his system.

It matters not, since the principle is of strict liability, and he was unable to provide any evidence of any other source. The beef theory was pretty desperate, IMO.

You have to remember that sport doping cases are the only ones in the civilised universe where you're guilty until proved innocent.

Not to say that Beefeater Bertie isn't a slimeball, but I thought that anyway.
The journey is always more important than the destination

simonp

Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #104 on: 06 February, 2012, 11:21:57 pm »
First of all it's not a criminal charge, so the standard of proof you suggest doesn't apply. However the offence was testing positive for a banned substance, and this wasn't challenged.

It would be akin to someone who failed a breath test making unsubstantiated claims that their drink was spiked.

Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #105 on: 07 February, 2012, 08:45:33 am »
It gets better - Saxo Bank might lose their ProTour licence.  That might make the sponsors think a bit more about the financial risk involved in backing dodgy teams and riders.

Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #106 on: 07 February, 2012, 10:04:07 am »
Like HTC, you mean?

This isn't a good thing, surely.

Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #107 on: 07 February, 2012, 10:20:56 am »
Like HTC, you mean?

This isn't a good thing, surely.

Perhaps not in the short term, but it must be in the long term interests of the sport.  Cycling has been tainted by doping to the extent of being a laughing stock for far too long.

Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #108 on: 07 February, 2012, 10:29:07 am »
The point I'm making is that HTC couldn't get a sponsor.  They were generally thought to be clean.

Of course, there are only positives in cycling because they are tested. Other sports don't have the same scrutiny. The laughers probably don't take this into account.

In general terms, I'd agree with you, but I see this case as a legacy of the Armstrong years, but of course you can't clean up the past.

David Martin

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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #109 on: 07 February, 2012, 01:43:04 pm »
The ruling is essentially the same as the Alain Baxter case - guilty but unintentional. However, under the strict accountability rules, intent does not matter.

It would be like taking a bike that weighed to little onto a mountain stage. Not necessarily intentional but outwith the rules.

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Rhys W

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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #110 on: 07 February, 2012, 02:17:27 pm »
Well, not quite. Alain Baxter eventually gave a reason (Vick's inhaler containing methamphetamine) which was accepted and easily proven.

Contador has protested his innocence all along and blamed a highly unlikely explanation which is impossible to prove and that the UCI don't accept.

David Martin

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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #111 on: 07 February, 2012, 02:19:41 pm »
Similar in that it was a technical breach of the rules by having a banned substance that would at the time have had little or no benefit.

My scientific trianing tells me that we cannot know the source of the clenbuterol with any reasonable certainty. My gut tells me he misjudged an out of season autologous blood doping after using clen.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Seineseeker

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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #112 on: 07 February, 2012, 07:25:34 pm »
Also not quite the same as Alain Baxter in that there seems to be a case for saying Baxter wasn't a systematic doper (not that I know much about the Baxter case, he was the skier right?). Contador on other hand.....

Rhys W

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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #113 on: 07 February, 2012, 08:49:56 pm »
There's a programme on Eurosport at 9:45 tonight, Contador's Press Conference - should be worth a watch.

Delgado and Indurain have been very vocal in protesting Contador's innocence, interestingly.

Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #114 on: 07 February, 2012, 10:51:32 pm »
My gut tells me he misjudged an out of season autologous blood doping after using clen.
And no doubt UCI/WADA felt exactly the same and that is why the samples were tested in the way they were tested and the reason why the case has been pursued.  The role of plasticisers is also interesting as surely they get a feel for how much is normally present by drinking from plastic bottles or storing something in plastic containers.  Equally, they would get a feel for such levels following transfusions etc.  From other reports:

WADA's argument was that Contador had undertaken a blood transfusion of red blood cells on July 20, 2010 and then "in order to mask the use of such a transfusion... the next day injected plasma (to hide the variation of haemoglobin values)...into his system."  CAS said "According to the appellants, it is the transfusion of plasma... which would have contaminated the sample with clenbuterol, resulting in the adverse analytical findings."

While he certainly made a remarkable comeback after his horrendous accident many years ago, some have questioned his performances and perhaps they were not expecting the level of testing that was undertaken in terms of the relatively very minute detection capability.  I say ‘they’ as if the transfusion argument is true, then one assumes he did not do this himself.

Delgado and Indurain have been very vocal in protesting Contador's innocence, interestingly.

Ah yes, Indurain suddenly developed asthma as I recall, hence the reason why a banned substance was found in his body that was blamed on the sanctioned treatment for asthma.

I really do think they were clutching at straws with the steak explanation and a lot of people found that so unbelievable.  Why some believe that someone cannot convince themselves they are innocent of any wrongdoing is equally unbelievable.  I even think there is a medical term to describe such behaviour.

Seineseeker

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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #115 on: 08 February, 2012, 02:11:35 am »
I note a significant change in the attitude of everyone. In the past (Armstrong, Hamilton, Landis etc.) these threads used to be populated by arguments in favour of the rider, no matter how outlandish or not their defence was. Times have changed it seems. There seems to be a majority believing Contador was doping and want to throw out his last gasp defence idea.

I think it's a good thing ultimately that the public, especially the cycling public no longer believes the sport is clean (even it is probably better than it was), they know it isn't and really want something done about it.



Rhys W

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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #117 on: 08 February, 2012, 09:23:21 am »
That's just a technicality, they'll sign him back on August 2.

Pingu

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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #118 on: 08 February, 2012, 03:49:54 pm »
I note a significant change in the attitude of everyone. In the past (Armstrong, Hamilton, Landis etc.) these threads used to be populated by arguments in favour of the rider, no matter how outlandish or not their defence was. Times have changed it seems. There seems to be a majority believing Contador was doping and want to throw out his last gasp defence idea.

I think it's a good thing ultimately that the public, especially the cycling public no longer believes the sport is clean (even it is probably better than it was), they know it isn't and really want something done about it.

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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #119 on: 09 February, 2012, 08:21:40 am »
Well, not quite. Alain Baxter eventually gave a reason (Vick's inhaler containing methamphetamine) which was accepted and easily proven.

Contador has protested his innocence all along and blamed a highly unlikely explanation which is impossible to prove and that the UCI don't accept.

I thought it was pseudoephedrine in the US version?
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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #120 on: 09 February, 2012, 09:20:41 am »
The nail in Contador's coffin was the intervention by the Spanish PM.

Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #121 on: 09 February, 2012, 11:14:42 am »
Well, not quite. Alain Baxter eventually gave a reason (Vick's inhaler containing methamphetamine) which was accepted and easily proven.

Contador has protested his innocence all along and blamed a highly unlikely explanation which is impossible to prove and that the UCI don't accept.

I thought it was pseudoephedrine in the US version?

That's what I thought, but the Wiki article states that it was methamphetamine, albeit an inactive isomer of the compound. At the appeal, Vicks and other expert witnesses testified that you'd have to take "a bucketful" of the compound to see any performance-enhancing effect at all, but Dr. Don Catlin maintained that the banned list did not specify isomers, so strict liability still applied.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Baxter#Medal_controversy
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fuzzy

Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #122 on: 09 February, 2012, 12:06:51 pm »
The point I'm making is that HTC couldn't get a sponsor.  They were generally thought to be clean.

Of course, there are only positives in cycling because they are tested. Other sports don't have the same scrutiny. The laughers probably don't take this into account.

Exactly. Who here is aware of this story about the footballer Mark Marshall?. I know it because he is ex Swindon Town but I bet few outside of the club he is with have a clue.

Rhys W

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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #123 on: 09 February, 2012, 12:15:04 pm »
That's what I thought, but the Wiki article states that it was methamphetamine, albeit an inactive isomer of the compound.

I also thought it was pseudoephedrine, but thought I should check my facts before posting!

I was under the impression that Sudafed got its name from "pseudo-ephed" and the UK version contained it anyway. Next time I get a cold I'll check the packet, just in case I've entered a local "10" the following week.

Mr Larrington

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Re: Contador to receive one year ban, probably.
« Reply #124 on: 09 February, 2012, 12:55:32 pm »
According to the Beeb, Jan Ullrich has just received a two-year ban (which won't bother him) and been stripped of his third place in the 2005 Tour
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