PBP - preferred pace & group riding

[Exit Stage Left]

split from the Interview with Jennifer Wise thread to bring out the specific & useful info here


MV


I ride with Americans more than most on PBP, as I'm the same build as a lot of them.
The first 50 miles of the 90 hour group is like the London-Brighton bike ride, conducted at night. Many of the US contingent are triathletes or strong time-trial riders, so they do what I do, which is to ride up the outside of field in a compact group of about 5 riders. You have to be able sense when riders are going to pull out.
Actually doing the London-Brighton, and similar rides, is the best practice, setting off 2 hours into the event and forcing your way through the field is the best option. Semaine Federale is even better.
One important tip is the classic Phil Ligget and Paule Sherwen line. It's always safest in the first ten riders. Obviously with a group of 500 this is quite difficult, but from the off in the 90 hour group it is a good idea to make your way up to the lead vehicles which sit on the front for the first 25km.
Obviously I have the advantage that I can see over the heads of nearly everyone, so I get advance warning of hazards, tagging on behind someone like me is unnerving unless you have experience, as you have to be aware that I am not actually a domestique and will vary my pace without warning, get on Littlewheelsandbig's wheel, he's much steadier.

I'm the one with his head stuck up out of this group, so you have to take my views on group riding with that in mind, I can see hazards from up there.

[mattc]

That must be what people mean by "The Helicopter View".

[teethgrinder]

A lot of Brittish AUKs aren't all that good in a bunch either, so I don't think we can point the finger at America. AUK tends to recruit individuals from all backgrounds, whereas bunch riding is mostly learned in cycling clubs.
I remember on BMB in 1996. I was very good on a climb at judging where someone would change gear, slow down and get out of the saddle and where I would catch them, if I would. I could guess within a few meters just by watching them.
But on one climb, I watched an American ride past me and marked a spot on the road where he would slow down. He rode about 10-20 meters further before he slowed down, which surprised me. But he slowed down a lot more than I expected and got off to walk just as I caught him.
It turned out that he was from the desert plains and had never ridden in hills before. His nearest hills were 500 miles away. He just didn't know how to ride up hills.
Americans used to be the butt of jokes when I began riding PBP. I remember a lot of fat Americans at the start of 1995. They had a reputation for being soft and packing easily. But over the last few PBPs, they've become a lot better and seem to improve every year. Ultra distance cycling in the USA seems to be getting bigger every year. I see more fat Brits that I see fat Americans at the start of PBP nowadays.

[Andrew]

I must admit to not liking riding in groups... so this probably makes me poor at it! Having not come to this through cycling clubs, I have no idea even of how one is supposed to do it. So perhaps time to learn? Or maybe just sit off the back and try and stay out of trouble that way, regardless of what Sherwin and Ligget say!

[mattc]

I think if you're happy to sit at the back for the first few hours, it is quite possible to avoid big groups. Unless you are above the average fitness*, this won't cost you anything as most riders tend to ride too fast early on anyway!

Of course you also need to be happy with starting in the last group (which has the happy side-effect of not needing you to queue for hours). Or do the 84/80h starts.

Having said this, group riding is mainly about practice and being considerate of other riders, and it's a useful "Life Skill". It won't do any harm to go out on some local club rides, even if you don't find them to be really your thing. Ask the old grizzled guys what the etiquette is/are, they'll be thrilled to show off their knowledge!

*If you are fast, then the 80/84h starts also solve this problem (I presume  )

[MSeries]

I must admit to not liking riding in groups... so this probably makes me poor at it! Having not come to this through cycling clubs, I have no idea even of how one is supposed to do it. So perhaps time to learn? Or maybe just sit off the back and try and stay out of trouble that way, regardless of what Sherwin and Ligget say!

The front is the best place to be to stay out or trouble. Obviously the leading rider breaks the wind, second or third back is ideal as you get a free ride and if the lead rider is strong he'll keep a constant pace. That's the problem at the back, the bunch slows and speeds and as the change in speed moves back down the bunch each change is larger. At the end you may find yourself having to slow and accelerate much more than you'd like just to stay in contact. It's sometime stressful following a wheel, you have to concentrate if the speed is high  else you'll either drop off or run into the back of the rider in front and cause a crash. Then remember you are likely to have a rider beside you, maybe on each side too. You need to be predictable and able. It's definately something you can get good at if you practice. Notice the VC167 riders and JC at the front of Exits picture, those guys know what they are doing. I don't think the one dropping off the back is me, I don't think I was in that club  when the picture was taken.

And yes, there was some poor riding at 2007 PBP, IMO the Italians and American men were the worst, particularly on the hills. I was surprised how many experienced and fit super randoneurs faded on the small climbs.

[teethgrinder]

I think if you're happy to sit at the back for the first few hours, it is quite possible to avoid big groups. Unless you are above the average fitness*, this won't cost you anything as most riders tend to ride too fast early on anyway!

Of course you also need to be happy with starting in the last group (which has the happy side-effect of not needing you to queue for hours). Or do the 84/80h starts.

Having said this, group riding is mainly about practice and being considerate of other riders, and it's a useful "Life Skill". It won't do any harm to go out on some local club rides, even if you don't find them to be really your thing. Ask the old grizzled guys what the etiquette is/are, they'll be thrilled to show off their knowledge!

*If you are fast, then the 80/84h starts also solve this problem (I presume  )

I prefer to start at the back of PBP. Everyone gets all excited and pushes to the front, all keen to get going. Watch them after 700k, they're not in such a hurry then, unless they are the real fast riders.
Let them all rush off while you relax and set off at the last minute. I relax and enjoy the crowds for the first 20 or so miles. Unless you are ultra slow, you won't get left behind. Navigation is easy because there are hundreds in front of you to follow. They all spread out too as the very keen and some of the fast riders will attract wheelsuckers, who will all drop off after a while. While they are all ahead you are left with those that pace themselves. You just pick your way around slower riders and even a few crashed riders while staying well out of trouble.
It's not a race. And even if it was, nobody can maintain the pace set by some at the start of PBP for the entire distance. Not many can keep it going to the first control. 15mph riding speed with minimal daytime stops will allow for a very relaxed PBP with plenty of sleep. Starting a 750 mile ride at a pace faster than I can maintain in a 24 hour TT doesn't make sense to me.
On the bike I will hopefully be riding this year, i'll be aiming for 12.5mph average riding speed. any faster, then I'll relax even more and probably not even pedal on the downhills.
All that jockeying for position and staying in the first 5 riders is the stuff of road racing. In a group of 500, with some very fast cyclists, it's only worth bothering if you really are very fast. Certainly not for the likes of me. I like to catch them a few hundred miles later when they're too tired to fight back.

[Exit Stage Left]

What suits a light tider on fixed won't suit a heavy rider on gears. I'll always be slower than average uphill, slightly faster than average on the flat, and a lot faster than average downhill. So the ability to jump on the back of a passing group on the flat is useful and the confidence to pass riders downhill is invaluable, otherwise the extra potential energy I have stored pulling my mass uphill is wasted if I have to use the brakes downhill.
The danger with not being assertive in group riding is in slowing to the pace of riders you catch, the aim should always be to jump on the wheel of riders slightly faster than yourself as they pass. It is in doing this that very bright lights are a hindrance, because your presence will not be welcome.

[steveindenmark]

Teethgrinder   

Thank you for those tips on how to ride the PBP.

I am totally new to cycling at the age of 52 and have foolishly challenged myself to ride the SR and then the PBP this year on a recumbent that I realised at the weekend, wants to fight me back.

In my other life...and more successful one, I am a long distance motorcycle tourer.

Your idea on doing the PBP is similar to my touring thoughts and that is "Sure and steady".

It is just as well really because riding the 12 miles to work in -6 temp. and snow and at 5am almost gave me 3 heart attacks, I am sure.

I appreciate your words of wisdom and know who to come back to for more




Steve

[Wothill]

Nice bike!

I take it the large rock suspended from the seat is for stability when speeding around corners.  

Why does it looks as if you have two front derailleur posts?

Edit: Sorry just realised that one of them has a pedal attached!

[LEE]

I think if you're happy to sit at the back for the first few hours, it is quite possible to avoid big groups. Unless you are above the average fitness*, this won't cost you anything as most riders tend to ride too fast early on anyway!

Of course you also need to be happy with starting in the last group (which has the happy side-effect of not needing you to queue for hours). Or do the 84/80h starts.

Having said this, group riding is mainly about practice and being considerate of other riders, and it's a useful "Life Skill". It won't do any harm to go out on some local club rides, even if you don't find them to be really your thing. Ask the old grizzled guys what the etiquette is/are, they'll be thrilled to show off their knowledge!

*If you are fast, then the 80/84h starts also solve this problem (I presume   )

I prefer to start at the back of PBP. Everyone gets all excited and pushes to the front, all keen to get going. Watch them after 700k, they're not in such a hurry then, unless they are the real fast riders.
Let them all rush off while you relax and set off at the last minute. I relax and enjoy the crowds for the first 20 or so miles. Unless you are ultra slow, you won't get left behind. Navigation is easy because there are hundreds in front of you to follow. They all spread out too as the very keen and some of the fast riders will attract wheelsuckers, who will all drop off after a while. While they are all ahead you are left with those that pace themselves. You just pick your way around slower riders and even a few crashed riders while staying well out of trouble.
It's not a race. And even if it was, nobody can maintain the pace set by some at the start of PBP for the entire distance. Not many can keep it going to the first control. 15mph riding speed with minimal daytime stops will allow for a very relaxed PBP with plenty of sleep. Starting a 750 mile ride at a pace faster than I can maintain in a 24 hour TT doesn't make sense to me.
On the bike I will hopefully be riding this year, i'll be aiming for 12.5mph average riding speed. any faster, then I'll relax even more and probably not even pedal on the downhills.
All that jockeying for position and staying in the first 5 riders is the stuff of road racing. In a group of 500, with some very fast cyclists, it's only worth bothering if you really are very fast. Certainly not for the likes of me. I like to catch them a few hundred miles later when they're too tired to fight back.

Useful advice TG.  I'll be on a 90h start and therefore riding into the night after a couple of hours.  Group riding requires concentration in daylight and double that in the dark.  I certainly don't mind being last away if it means reduced queueing at controls and less concentration required through the night.  I just wasn't sure a late start would result in smaller queues at controls (or whether I would find 6000 riders queueing)

There is certainly a danger of going too fast at the start, I always tend to do exactly that on every Audax.  It doesn't matter so much on a 200 if you start suffering for the quick start at 180km, it certainly would if I still had 1000km to go.

[frankly frankie]

Respectfully disagree.  "Go as fast as you can, for as long as you can" works just as well on PBP as it does on any other event.  If not better.

[Exit Stage Left]

It might be worth knowing that Teethgrinder is a regular participant in 24 Hour Time Trials, where he has ridden steadily at an average speed of 30kph for those 24 hours, without support. So when he says he rides steadily and catches those who started fast, there is a reason.
If you start early in the 90 hour group there are 4,000 behind you. A lot of those will pass you at a speed at which you can get on their wheel easily. That will save you 30% of your energy.
If you can't stay with them up the hills, you can climb at your own pace and pick up another group on the other side of the hill. The best terrain for this is on the first night. It is not unknown for riders to do their fastest ever 200 on the first night of PBP through carefully planned wheelsucking. TG has no real need for such tactics.

[mattc]

OTOH, if you start last, you can still draft a lot of riders, and the 84h bunch catches you up even sooner. They're a much more disciplined group to ride with!

[Exit Stage Left]

OTOH, if you start last, you can still draft a lot of riders, and the 84h bunch catches you up even sooner. They're a much more disciplined group to ride with!

How did that work out for you then?

[mattc]

OTOH, if you start last, you can still draft a lot of riders, and the 84h bunch catches you up even sooner. They're a much more disciplined group to ride with!

How did that work out for you then?

Funnily enough I had an attack of principles on the Foug-Tint leg; it was very flat and lots of fast groups came past. I even stopped and took a passable photo of one lot.

They would probably have dragged me a fair way down the road to Loudeac if I had adopted this strategy (at which point I would have crahsed out for  about 400 winks on the verge). Instead I slept at Tint, then lost an hour helping an exhausted rider  on the leg to Loudeac. Hindsight's a wonderful thing!

The other Brit-at-the-back with me got homologated OK, despite starting even slower. </anecdata>

_{(I do trust your tactics really old chap)}

[zigzag]

i'll go fast for the first 4-500k to build the time buffer, burn out, then take it easy and enjoy the rest of the ride. not sure if i want to learn pacing myself - what's the advantage?

[LEE]

Respectfully disagree.  "Go as fast as you can, for as long as you can" works just as well on PBP as it does on any other event.  If not better.

It doesn't work for me on any Audax.  I always need to pace myself.  I always save my sprints for the final 10km rather than the first 10km.

[LEE]

i'll go fast for the first 4-500k to build the time buffer, burn out, then take it easy and enjoy the rest of the ride. not sure if i want to learn pacing myself - what's the advantage?

Well I suppose the advantage is that you don't burn out.  I expect most top athletes pace themselves, whether that's understanding how they feel at any moment, and using experience to adjust their effort, or a team of doctors wirelessly monitoring heart-rate and relaying information back to the athlete.  I doubt many endurance races are won by going as fast as you possibly can until "burn-out" and then taking it easy for the rest of it.

I appreciate all advice but I know that, on a 4 day endurance event (not a race), it's best to keep well inside fat-burning heart-rates.  For a cyclist of my ability it's about making it to the finish and not setting a PB.

[Ivo]

If you start early in the 90 hour group there are 4,000 behind you. A lot of those will pass you at a speed at which you can get on their wheel easily. That will save you 30% of your energy.
If you can't stay with them up the hills, you can climb at your own pace and pick up another group on the other side of the hill. The best terrain for this is on the first night. It is not unknown for riders to do their fastest ever 200 on the first night of PBP through carefully planned wheelsucking. TG has no real need for such tactics.

That exactly was my problem 4 years ago. Many riders of my speed opted to shelter for the rain in Mortagne. So hardly any wheels to suck from Mortagne onwards. That greatly reduced my speed and gave me far too litle time buffer for the remainder of the ride. I'm also of the climb slow and catch up downhill group.

[zigzag]

I doubt many endurance races are won by going as fast as you possibly can until "burn-out" and then taking it easy for the rest of it.

i'm not talking about crazy-fast pace, where you burn out in few minutes. i would aim for 27kph average (or 30kph if drafting faster groups) for the first few hundred km, then slow down to 22-23kph average for the rest of the ride.

[Exit Stage Left]

One bad thing that can happen to you if you aren't assertive in a group is to slow to the speed of riders that you catch, who then slow to the speed of riders they catch. You can then get boxed in by the faster moving riders on the outside.
One way to avoid that problem is to underdress, so you have to put a certain amount of effort in to stay warm. I got the impression that a lot of the riders from hot areas didn't appreciate the way in which rain gear and thermal gear could still make them overheat in cold conditions.

[Panoramix]

I doubt many endurance races are won by going as fast as you possibly can until "burn-out" and then taking it easy for the rest of it.

i'm not talking about crazy-fast pace, where you burn out in few minutes. i would aim for 27kph average (or 30kph if drafting faster groups) for the first few hundred km, then slow down to 22-23kph average for the rest of the ride.

I did this for LEL and it worked out well as I wasn't pressed for time in the bad weather and managed to sleep every night.

[border-rider]

again, the Sheila Simpson advice seems to have stood the test of time: race to Brest and tour home.  

The time allowances are more relaxed for the second 600, and if you're at the turn point with a decent buffer you can relax, sleep, drink & squander a few hours here & there.  In 2003 I got to Brest in about 20 hours less than it took me to get back

As ESL says, I really would use the presence of 4-5,000 riders on the first night to get some distance between you and Paris.  No matter how much you pace yourself for the first 400 k, you're going to be knackered at some point before the 90 hours is up and need a decent rest.  There's a lot to be said for riding a bit faster and resting longer rather than grinding along close to the time limits.  It's a more brutal ride in terms of time limits than LEL, though I think it's physically a lot easier.

[teethgrinder]

There is certainly a danger of going too fast at the start, I always tend to do exactly that on every Audax.  It doesn't matter so much on a 200 if you start suffering for the quick start at 180km, it certainly would if I still had 1000km to go.

That really is the hardest thing about PBP (well, you know what I mean ) Not starting too fast. All those crowds, motorbike out riders and people getting excited and rushing. It takes some doing not to get caught up in it all, forget how far you have to go and just get caught up in the madness, ending up trying a lot harder than you normally would do at the start of an easy 200. A lot of people do their fastest 200 on the first 200k of PBP. But a lot of that is to do with the relatively easy terrain, easy navigation and lack of official stops, so even at a steady pace you shouldn't be too far off your fastest 200.