Author Topic: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF  (Read 7817 times)

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« on: February 07, 2011, 02:31:32 pm »
Split out form the £10 event registration fee thread

£10 registration fee per event for organisers

MV





while on the subject of Brevet cards; what is the official line on re-using them? I recycle unused ones the next year by sticking new innards for the next event; I bin any DNF / incomplete ones (which I get many of; a lot of riders are just having a day out and don't particularly want it validated although I do try to encourage them to do so as it's more riders in the results and pennies for AUK). But everyone ends up with a paid for official AUK card.

Good point Zoom, like you I bin the DNFs and incompletes.

I was encouraged by an AUK comittee member to re-cycle any DNSs by sticking-in a photo-copy of a suitable event.AUK have already been paid for the card, and in effect would be getting an extra validation.

I always get late entries, and if I've not enough cards, this is what the last of the late ones usually get.

I think that's a fair enough approach, and quite common (I do it myself if I need more for EOLs). As you say, you paid for the card originally and you pay for the validation when it's used. So you're not depriving AUK of anything by doing that.

Which is exactly the same logic I applied to 'reusing' a perm brevet card following a DNF.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2011, 03:20:49 pm »
Which is exactly the same logic I applied to 'reusing' a perm brevet card following a DNF.

We've been all round that point before, DNS =/= DNF.  Please leave that discussion in another thread.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Martin

Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2011, 03:21:15 pm »
while on the subject of Brevet cards; what is the official line on re-using them? I recycle unused ones the next year by sticking new innards for the next event; I bin any DNF / incomplete ones (which I get many of; a lot of riders are just having a day out and don't particularly want it validated although I do try to encourage them to do so as it's more riders in the results and pennies for AUK). But everyone ends up with a paid for official AUK card.

Good point Zoom, like you I bin the DNFs and incompletes.

I was encouraged by an AUK comittee member to re-cycle any DNSs by sticking-in a photo-copy of a suitable event.AUK have already been paid for the card, and in effect would be getting an extra validation.

I always get late entries, and if I've not enough cards, this is what the last of the late ones usually get.

actually my early entrants get mine  :-[ it enables me to be ahead of myself so I'm labelling less cards in the frenetic few days before Pam's arrive.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2011, 07:50:52 pm »
Which is exactly the same logic I applied to 'reusing' a perm brevet card following a DNF.

We've been all round that point before, DNS =/= DNF.  Please leave that discussion in another thread.

At the end of the day, it's a piece of card used to validate a ride. In the case of a DNS it belongs to the Org, in the case of a Perm DNF it belongs to the rider who has also paid for ride validation. In each case 're-using' it saves cost and hassle for riders, organisers and AUK and for exactly the same reasons. That's it, really. What's not to like?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2011, 07:56:19 pm »
If you want to keep rehashing arguments, just look at what was written in the previous thread. The arguments haven't changed on either side.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2011, 08:04:41 pm »
If you want to keep rehashing arguments, just look at what was written in the previous thread. The arguments haven't changed on either side.

You're missing the simple point that was being made. Regardless of the fact that a DNS != DNF, the justification given for an organiser reusing cards is:-

As you say, you paid for the card originally and you pay for the validation when it's used. So you're not depriving AUK of anything by doing that.

Which applies equally to a rider reusing a card from a DNF. They aren't depriving AUK of anything by doing so.

There may be other reasons why riders should not be allowed to reuse cards from DNFs, but the above can't be one of them.

(Happy to rehash old arguments, it's a tad quiet round here right now...)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2011, 08:19:07 pm »
You may be happy to rehash arguments, I'm not. Have fun!
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Billy Weir

Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2011, 08:23:24 pm »
This thread isn't about the reuse of cards.  It is very naughty of you to go down that line of argument as it is irrelevant to the £10 registration fee.  Have a Stewie...


border-rider

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2011, 08:30:19 pm »
This thread isn't about the reuse of cards. 

It is now.

Enjoy.

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2011, 08:41:50 pm »
This thread is irrelevant for the cutting edge of Audax Tech that is the DIY by GPS event. There never is a "card". Nothing physical exists, unless there is a mysterious paper-based sequence of handshakes amongst organisers and validators downstream of us consumers.

I was a Guilty Party when it came to reusing a DNF'd DIY entry. This was mostly down to ignorance born out of a lack of precision of what it was I'd actually paid for. So:

1. If my £2.50 buys a "Validation" - then I can reuse it if I DNF/DNS.
2. If my £2.50 buys a "Route check" from an Org - then I can't reuse it.
3. If my £2.50 encapsulates all elements of the ride - then again, it's an immutable and atomic thing - and I cannot reuse it after a DNF/DNS - it's spent.

All we need is clarification on what your money buys you - in the absence of a "card".

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2011, 08:47:35 pm »
2. If my £2.50 buys a "Route check" from an Org - then I can't reuse it.

What about for exactly the same route (that won't need a route check)? (i.e. like a Perm)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2011, 08:49:11 pm »
2. If my £2.50 buys a "Route check" from an Org - then I can't reuse it.

What about for exactly the same route (that won't need a route check)? (i.e. like a Perm)

Then 1 applies. Prior knowledge by the Organiser of previous rides is of course, a prerequisite.

border-rider

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2011, 08:54:31 pm »
This thread is irrelevant for the cutting edge of Audax Tech that is the DIY by GPS event. There never is a "card".

But you do have to tell the relevant organiser that you're attempting it that day, do you not ?

edit: I'm not sure it's about what your money buys you; I see it as about setting out to do a ride and either succeeding or not.  The money & stuff just looks after the admin in a non-specific way.

Billy Weir

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2011, 09:00:54 pm »
The brevet card is a red herring.

You are paying to enter the ride, to do it and, if successful to have it validated.  The brevet card is the vehicle for proving you did the ride.

If you DNF then you have done the ride and failed.  I don't see why, in those circumstances, it would be considered reasonble to re-enter without paying the necessary fee.

I feel that organisers not asking for a new entry in those circumstances are not living up to their part of the bargain as "gatekeepers" of what it means for a randonneur to do an audax event successfully.  Failure has to have a consequence.

AndyH

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2011, 09:15:59 pm »
I see it as about setting out to do a ride and either succeeding or not.

You are paying to enter the ride, to do it and, if successful to have it validated.  The brevet card is the vehicle for proving you did the ride.

If you DNF then you have done the ride and failed.

+1

I'm told that one perm organiser won't accept entries without a date, and once nominated the date has to be stuck to.

Martin

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2011, 09:25:40 pm »
I'm told that one perm organiser won't accept entries without a date, and once nominated the date has to be stuck to.

and me makes 2;

this is a completely different argument to re-using calendar brevets. They are bit of paper (cost 35p) which are only of any use on the calendar event and can thus be recycled the next year if not required (unless I hear otherwise). The rider has to pay for it again if they do the ride next year via another entry fee (and sometimes it's already got their name on!)

a perm brevet card is paper proof of a whole process that starts when you send the perm organiser an entry and pay the entry fee and ends when you finish (or not) the perm and get the card back a couple of weeks later.

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2011, 09:43:05 pm »
what''s the question being asked in this thread ?

Martin

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2011, 09:46:03 pm »
what''s the question being asked in this thread ?

why can't somebody enter a perm and re-use the card if they DNF?

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2011, 09:49:10 pm »
This thread is irrelevant for the cutting edge of Audax Tech that is the DIY by GPS event. There never is a "card".

But you do have to tell the relevant organiser that you're attempting it that day, do you not ?

Yes. There is an online electronic form that I can use to enter the ride. It requires a date. No problem as far as I'm concerned. But this entry is utilising one of a batch of entries I previously paid the Organiser for. But what is it I bought? Entries, or validations? If I originally bought a batch of "validations", then I might feel I'm entitled to reuse the validation if I DNF/DNS.

Like I say - all is needed is clarification into what one is buying when one buys a batch of "Electronic Brevets".

--
NB: Standard disclaimer: The monetary amounts at stake are puny. I don't actually care what system is used. I just need to know what system is being used.

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2011, 09:52:21 pm »
what''s the question being asked in this thread ?

why can't somebody enter a perm and re-use the card if they DNF?

can't they ?

has it been answered yet ? Is there an answer ? Surely one of the AUK committee with know.

border-rider

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2011, 09:55:32 pm »
Is the parallel not with a calendar event, where you pay for entry and the cost covers all ? If you DNS you can't ride it again the next year without re-entering.

same with a perm: you enter & pay the fee (accepting that for DIYs these are usually not simultaneous) and if you DNS youi have to enter again and pay/use up another fee.

I'm not sure where the idea that you are "buying validations alone" comes from...

3peaker

  • RRTY Mad 31 up
Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2011, 09:59:01 pm »
From Audax Website: “Permanent rides are more flexible than calendared events. Most can be ridden at any time and many organisers will not insist that you commit yourself to a particular date in advance. Most organisers provide you with a route sheet and many offer advice as to possible places to obtain your proof of passage in designated towns or villages.”

As a Perm Organiser, the Entry entitles the rider for any support I can provide to ensure a successful ride.  At the end of the day the rider will receive his Validated card.  As long as I can trace the ride the rider has entered (and I will support a change of route if I have emailed him another Routesheet).  Many riders collect PoPs as they ride without touching the Card, so if they DNF, they still have an untouched Card.  I have many SAEs for outstanding cards, not returned after riders change their plans. Where there is a long gap between Entry and riding, I would advise riders to email for an up-to-date routesheet, as I am improving them every time I do a re-ride, adding gps-obtained inter-instruction distances and can even provide .tcx track data.  I will not demand a second Entry fee; that surely is an agreement between Rider and individual Organiser. I buy blank Brevet Cards and provide the Card with a Routesheet.  I appreciate email advice on intent to ride and will support any rider.

Many riders enter with undeclared date to ride, as they are a useful hedge for a good weather day or they have not made final plans.  To insist on an entry date on each entry form is not very encouraging, if we want to promote Audax riding. Different Rules may apply if extending a Calendar ride. For Permanent also read Flexibility. I have the ultimate advantage of riding any of mine as I see a weather and date window.  It seems selfish if I change the Rules of Engagement for others.

Of course a Calendar event has a different protocol as it is date fixed and Controls are only available during the 'Open Window'.  There are occasionally exceptions where events may be cancelled or declared (weather)-unsafe and a (limited time window) Perm ride offered in lieu.
SteveP

Promoting : Cheltenham Flyer 200, Cider with Rosie 150, Character Coln 100 21 Mar 20. (Suspended 16 Mar 20 on AUK advice)

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2011, 09:59:27 pm »
Is the parallel not with a calendar event, where you pay for entry and the cost covers all ? If you DNS you can't ride it again the next year without re-entering.

No. In a calendar event, you are paying for stuff you don't get on a perm - eg: Village Hall hire, WI Cake Miesters, brevet stamper's expenses.

I'm not sure where the idea that you are "buying validations alone" comes from...

Me neither. I guess it was something my head invented in the absence of AUK clarification of The Rools.

Martin

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2011, 10:03:09 pm »
the perm rules clearly state that you should fill in the details on the card when you start.

On the day, write the date in your brevet card and find a suitable start control for your ride

No way of course that the organiser can check this happens but if you DNF you have used up that card (or "validation" as I now call my e-brevets as there is no brevet)

To insist on an entry date on each entry form is not very encouraging, if we want to promote Audax riding

I agree; and on my DIY's advise riders to do an online entry (having pre-agreed the distance) as close to the actual ride as they like to encourage them to choose a good day for the ride and defer if need be; just let me know.

we are a cycling club not a monastery, why go out in the pissing rain if it's going to be sunny tomorrow?

also to put it in context I've never had a DNF since I've been doing DIY's; it's not a decision riders generally take lightly, I assume it would be due to a mechanical or injury/ illness

Billy Weir

Re: Reusing a perm brevet card after a DNF
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2011, 10:10:34 pm »
My guidance for entrants to my permanents is:

1. Enjoy the ride.  I've put them on for you to enjoy
2. If you want your ride to be validated and registered by Audax UK:
a) Tell me when you are going to ride. Even if the night before
b) Complete the brevet card from beginning to end
c) Send it back to me
3. Tell me if your plans change before the day of the event.  Your entry will be treated as still open
4. If in doubt, shout.

This is my interpretation.  If a club official tells me it is misguided then I'm happy to amend it - after all, I am doing what I can to facilitate rides under the auspices of Audax UK.