Author Topic: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong  (Read 11388 times)

Clandy

'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« on: February 15, 2011, 08:50:53 pm »
IMO. Their way will lead to cyclists being banned from Britain's roads.

http://road.cc/content/blog/31007-cycling-embassy-great-britain-–-ambassador-responds

Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2011, 08:58:50 pm »
Linky no worky :(

Clandy

Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2011, 09:03:02 pm »

Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2011, 09:07:05 pm »
I got through the first four paragraphs before I got bored.

They are an irrelevance.

mAsTa RiDaH

Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2011, 09:12:41 pm »
I got through the first four paragraphs before I got bored.

They are an irrelevance.

+1

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2011, 09:17:25 pm »
They could be very relevant. But I couldn't tell because although I read the whole article, at no point did it make quite clear what they are campaigning for other than some sort of national standard and, I think, "looking across the North Sea".
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

Clandy

Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2011, 09:39:18 pm »
Unfortunately I think they could be very relevant. The UK Gov has a habit of 'listening' to 'organisations', and the CEGB have policies which play right into Hoverboard Hammond's hands.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2011, 10:10:17 pm »
Care to elaborate? What actually are their policies?
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

Clandy

Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2011, 10:20:40 pm »
Care to elaborate? What actually are their policies?

I think Carlton Reid says it much better than I could in his reply below the article.

Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2011, 10:24:06 pm »
I got through the first four paragraphs before I got bored.

They are an irrelevance.

I persevered, the comments are interesting.

The CTC are old fashioned, the LCC are tedious, uninformed and irrelevant, we need someone better and more active than both. As was said, drivers, gardeners and anglers all have more than one lobby group.

Clandy

Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2011, 10:27:36 pm »
I got through the first four paragraphs before I got bored.

They are an irrelevance.

I persevered, the comments are interesting.

The CTC are old fashioned, the LCC are tedious, uninformed and irrelevant, we need someone better and more active than both. As was said, drivers, gardeners and anglers all have more than one lobby group.

This is true, but the abundance of motorist's groups will not result in a government saying 'Ok, that's it, you are no longer permitted to use the roads'.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2011, 10:59:53 pm »
Care to elaborate? What actually are their policies?

I think Carlton Reid says it much better than I could in his reply below the article.
Kind of. I hadn't read the comments as they're so often nutcase, but I went back and read his. It is of course about why the Embassy's ideas are misguided at best.
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2011, 11:00:08 pm »
The Netherlands get quoted often in these dedicated-infrastructure-vs-road debates. We should be emulating the Netherlands or implementing Dutch standards, Holland has a much higher rate of bike usage, etc. Well, it's good to look at what is done in other places as often they've had ideas that haven't occurred to you here. Things can be done really differently. But it's blinkered to constantly look at one place and claim it is the best, therefore we should be copying the way things are done there. What is best in Place A may not be best in Place B, for a whole variety of reasons (land use , topography, weather, clothes, money, attitudes to central and local government and personal spending, popular and technical influence on planning decisions, etc). There is no One True Way and no One Best Place. We should be looking at a far wider range of places for inspiration, not least at their attitudes rather than simply their hardware.
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

Clandy

Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2011, 11:05:07 pm »
The Netherlands get quoted often in these dedicated-infrastructure-vs-road debates. We should be emulating the Netherlands or implementing Dutch standards, Holland has a much higher rate of bike usage, etc. Well, it's good to look at what is done in other places as often they've had ideas that haven't occurred to you here. Things can be done really differently. But it's blinkered to constantly look at one place and claim it is the best, therefore we should be copying the way things are done there. What is best in Place A may not be best in Place B, for a whole variety of reasons (land use , topography, weather, clothes, money, attitudes to central and local government and personal spending, popular and technical influence on planning decisions, etc). There is no One True Way and no One Best Place. We should be looking at a far wider range of places for inspiration, not least at their attitudes rather than simply their hardware.

I've never understood why the Netherlands is held up as a 'good' example. To my eye their system is restrictive and discriminatory. I think Copenhagen is a much better example of integrated transport.

mattc

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Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2011, 11:09:13 pm »
The CTC are old fashioned,
So are bicycles (and roads for that matter). Some things are timeless :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2011, 11:14:45 pm »
The Netherlands get quoted often in these dedicated-infrastructure-vs-road debates. We should be emulating the Netherlands or implementing Dutch standards, Holland has a much higher rate of bike usage, etc. Well, it's good to look at what is done in other places as often they've had ideas that haven't occurred to you here. Things can be done really differently. But it's blinkered to constantly look at one place and claim it is the best, therefore we should be copying the way things are done there. What is best in Place A may not be best in Place B, for a whole variety of reasons (land use , topography, weather, clothes, money, attitudes to central and local government and personal spending, popular and technical influence on planning decisions, etc). There is no One True Way and no One Best Place. We should be looking at a far wider range of places for inspiration, not least at their attitudes rather than simply their hardware.

I've never understood why the Netherlands is held up as a 'good' example. To my eye their system is restrictive and discriminatory. I think Copenhagen is a much better example of integrated transport.
Possibly. I've never been to Copenhagen so don't know what it's like. But I note that one is a city and one a country. Similarly, what works in London might work well in other UK cities but might not. The Boris Hirers seem to be a big success, whereas Bristol's similar bikes have literally disappeared.
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2011, 11:23:22 pm »
The Netherlands get quoted often in these dedicated-infrastructure-vs-road debates. We should be emulating the Netherlands or implementing Dutch standards, Holland has a much higher rate of bike usage, etc. Well, it's good to look at what is done in other places as often they've had ideas that haven't occurred to you here. Things can be done really differently. But it's blinkered to constantly look at one place and claim it is the best, therefore we should be copying the way things are done there. What is best in Place A may not be best in Place B, for a whole variety of reasons (land use , topography, weather, clothes, money, attitudes to central and local government and personal spending, popular and technical influence on planning decisions, etc). There is no One True Way and no One Best Place. We should be looking at a far wider range of places for inspiration, not least at their attitudes rather than simply their hardware.

I've never understood why the Netherlands is held up as a 'good' example. To my eye their system is restrictive and discriminatory. I think Copenhagen is a much better example of integrated transport.
Possibly. I've never been to Copenhagen so don't know what it's like. But I note that one is a city and one a country. Similarly, what works in London might work well in other UK cities but might not. The Boris Hirers seem to be a big success, whereas Bristol's similar bikes have literally disappeared.

You cycle in Poland, which in my experience is second only to East London for psycho drivers.

Everywhere I've cycled in Europe is better than London, with the exception of Poland. I'm like the man in the orthopaedic shoes and stand to be corrected, but the levels of drunkenness and aggression around Krakow is mental.

Berlin- marvellous.

Prague- wonderful.

Netherlands, bliss, so wonderful that I'd give way confusingly so cars would wave me on.

France and Italy and Spain- middle aged men pack the roads at weekends on bikes.

All my opinions are subjective, never commuted steadily in Krakow but IMO Polish drivers are crazy ape bonkers.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Dormant but requires tea
Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2011, 11:29:58 pm »
Yes, Polish drivers are "crazy ape bonkers" but somehow they only express that to other drivers and - most of all - to pedestrians. At least, that's my experience. It may well be different in Kraków, I've only ever visited for the occasional day. My experience of Poland is mainly smaller towns, villages and countryside, though also Lublin (population about 350,000) and Warsaw. Perhaps if I lived in Kraków or even had spent longer in Warsaw I wouldn't say they were good around cyclists, but as it is, I really do find Polish drivers to be surprisingly cautious and respectful towards bikes. And I have no explanation for this behaviour.
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2011, 11:51:04 pm »
Yes, Polish drivers are "crazy ape bonkers" but somehow they only express that to other drivers and - most of all - to pedestrians. At least, that's my experience. It may well be different in Kraków, I've only ever visited for the occasional day. My experience of Poland is mainly smaller towns, villages and countryside, though also Lublin (population about 350,000) and Warsaw. Perhaps if I lived in Kraków or even had spent longer in Warsaw I wouldn't say they were good around cyclists, but as it is, I really do find Polish drivers to be surprisingly cautious and respectful towards bikes. And I have no explanation for this behaviour.

Fair enough, I haven't really been there long enough for a reasoned opinion, only a dozen times in the last year.

 Someone should start a thread on the best continental city to cycle in.

I'd say Amsterdam and Berlin, never been to Copenhagen.

Clandy

Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2011, 08:42:19 am »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ibCcp0Y3OB0&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/ibCcp0Y3OB0&rel=1</a>

vorsprung

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Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2011, 09:48:35 am »
I dunno that these embassy people have got it "VERY wrong"

If they want to copy the Dutch model then the key thing is the change in attitudes and road prioirities.  

Cycling in the UK could be like cycling in Holland pretty quick without essentially altering the UK infrastructure if there were different road traffic rules and if the drivers stuck to them

However, such a change is just as difficult as forcing local councils to stick to planning best practice

The reason I think the CTC approach of keeping cyclists on the roads is right is that peak oil is coming.  The petrol will run out, electric cars will take up a lot of the slack but TBH there will be a lot more cycling.  

As we've seen recently the congestion charge and the increase in petrol prices is driving a mini boom in cycling.  Economic factors will get people cycling more over the next 20 years.

I look forward to the M5 being shut to motor traffic and converted to a 8 lane cycle path  ;D
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Alouicious

Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2011, 09:50:36 am »
There is no need for segregated cycle lanes if ( and it’s a big IF ) all roadusers, cyclists and motorists alike, all obey the highway code.
The reason why cycle lanes are necessary is because most motorized road traffic do not obey the highway code.
The presence of a cycle lane gives motorized traffic a given excuse to scare cyclists into it.

On most roads, cyclists have fourteen feet of tarmac to utilize, and they are at liberty to use whatever bit of it provides them the safest passage.
Motorised traffic to the rear can wait until the cyclist is in a position where it is safe to pass.

But ( and it’s a big BUT ) motorists don't like waiting. They would prefer if the cyclists were not there.

As far as I'm concerned, when I'm riding my bike, the lane is MINE...
End of.

Jaded

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Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2011, 09:53:05 am »
The reason I think the CTC approach of keeping cyclists on the roads is right is that peak oil is coming.  The petrol will run out, electric cars will take up a lot of the slack but TBH there will be a lot more cycling.  

As we've seen recently the congestion charge and the increase in petrol prices is driving a mini boom in cycling.  Economic factors will get people cycling more over the next 20 years.

I look forward to the M5 being shut to motor traffic and converted to a 8 lane cycle path  ;D


I agree with all this except the end part - nice though it would be - sadly we won't be putting money into motorways if there are no cars to run on them, and they will break up with weeds, cracks etc very quickly.
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vorsprung

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Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2011, 10:01:33 am »

I look forward to the M5 being shut to motor traffic and converted to a 8 lane cycle path  ;D


I agree with all this except the end part - nice though it would be - sadly we won't be putting money into motorways if there are no cars to run on them, and they will break up with weeds, cracks etc very quickly.

I was being slightly tongue in cheek.

One of the things I think will be interesting when cars travel a significant amount less on the roads is that they will fill up with debris.  At the moment cars sweep the cruft off the road.  If there were no cars we'd have to have a system to sweep the roads on a regular basis.  Maybe on very busy roads the cyclist could perform this function?  But I think as bikes are not as heavy it wouldn't work like that
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Jaded

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Re: 'Cycling Embassy of Great Britain' have it VERY wrong
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2011, 10:05:59 am »
I was being slightly tongue in cheek.

Yes.


I was avoiding smilies on account of the upcoming third anniversary of the Great Smiley Disaster.  ;D
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.