Author Topic: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?  (Read 9136 times)

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« on: August 27, 2011, 12:03:59 am »
While ankles and knees grow back, there's now a pair of thumb-sized holes in one of my front-rollers. My custard creams got soggy.

I'm going to gaffer tape it for now, but any bright ideas would be welcome...
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...


YahudaMoon

  • John Diffley
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2011, 12:52:48 am »
Go and buy some Carradice  :)

Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2011, 01:03:16 am »
If we're heading down advice of that nature - my suggestion would be "claim on the insurance".

Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2011, 10:04:53 am »
Imho any repair is unlikely to last  :-\
If it was mw, judging by the amount of times there is a torrential downpour around here and I end up like a drowned rat I would stick a polythene liner bag in  :thumbsup:
Tbh I have had a panniers in the past that the only way to make them waterproof was using this method.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2011, 10:28:38 am »
Try your luck contacting ortleib  :)
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2011, 11:24:21 am »
While ankles and knees grow back, there's now a pair of thumb-sized holes in one of my front-rollers. My custard creams got soggy.

I'm going to gaffer tape it for now, but any bright ideas would be welcome...

For small holes one can use the "Universal" "E163" repair set:  http://www.bikeplus.co.uk/products.php?pid=665&detail=true
It has transparent patches.

For larger holes, it depends on the model you have. The Front-Roller Classic uses two different materials: the black nylon on the sides called "PS 490" and the front and back polyester material called "PD 620", so you may need a different patch set depending on where the hole is and how the repair kit is sold.
The "Plus" line is made of PU Cordura called "PS36C"

The  Ortlieb "E62" Repair Kit ought to contain enough large patches of different colours and materials to repair larger holes on most if not all Ortlieb panniers:

 http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b4s78p1160

Though sometimes you see repair kits for a specific material, or a specific colour. Eg. if you all ready have PU glue, you can buy individual sheets of PD 620 for the Front-Roller Classic here:
http://www.ortlieb.co.uk/index.php/patch-pd620.html

From what Ortlieb says, and from what I have heard, the patches are very durable and they adhere very strongly to the materials, making the pannier fully waterproof again. It is a permanent fix that ought to last until the pannier is retired.

--
Regards

Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2011, 11:36:55 am »
I mended a couple of holes in my front rollers by gluing on patches made from a old Petzl caving oversuit that was a similar PVC material.
Still waterproof 15 years later

(the holes were from protruding bolts on the front rack)

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2011, 02:45:11 pm »
Well the option of McGuyvering a solution should make Kim a bit less pissed off for a while - fingers crossed they'll be as successful as our washing machine door repair (http://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery/view_photo.php?full=1&set_albumName=random&id=IMG_2094) which is coming up to 3 years old now.


Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2011, 04:59:48 pm »
I have repaired my panniers (similar material to the Ortliebs) with Seam Sealant after a mouse got into one and ate my fig rolls.
Its a flexible glue you cane use to repair most materials and has worked well for the last 3 years, I used it to glue on a large tyre patch (the Park tyre boot).
Its best to get a small tube as it does slowly go off once open, great stuff for a number of other repairs I've done on Goretex and torn rucsacs too and even works on shoe soles.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/McNETT-SEAM-GRIP-SEALANT-ADHESIVE-TENTS-DRY-SUITS-28gr-/370532326518?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5645729c76

Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2011, 06:53:08 pm »
As others have said, they can be properly and permanently patched.  I'd suggest using the genuine matching Ortleib patches rather than buying and cutting up Carradice panniers for patches.   

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2011, 03:06:18 pm »
[lots of useful info]

From what Ortlieb says, and from what I have heard, the patches are very durable and they adhere very strongly to the materials, making the pannier fully waterproof again. It is a permanent fix that ought to last until the pannier is retired.

Thanks for all that, that makes things a lot easier.   :thumbsup:

The damage is to the PS490 side section (right at the very edge where it meets the PD620, to make a repair as difficult as possible.

There appear to be different repair kits for the different materials, though I get the impression that all but the E163 are depricated, and anything other than that and the E62 kit are hard to track down.  However, googling around reveals the existence of an E49 - that is a PS490-specific kit.

In the interests of doing as proper a job as possible (which I suspect will involve overlapping patches of the different materials on the inside), I have ordered both the E49 and E62 from burls.co.uk

Fingers crossed.


ETA: Just done the Wowbagger test (though using tap water, as expensive lactose-free milk was all we had to hand) and discovered another small hole in the PS490 on the underside of the pannier.  That one should be easily patchable, though.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2011, 09:32:44 pm »
It's not a proper Wowbagger test though, because I used someone else's pannier!  :P
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

fuzzy (retd.) AAGE

  • SWMBO's Toy Boy.
  • Apprentice Leathery Old Git
    • The Secret Cyclist blog
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 03:08:13 pm »
Well the option of McGuyvering a solution should make Kim a bit less pissed off for a while - fingers crossed they'll be as successful as our washing machine door repair (http://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery/view_photo.php?full=1&set_albumName=random&id=IMG_2094) which is coming up to 3 years old now.

A fecking ace repair but I fear for the chidlers. they'll have their eyes out on those bolts ;D
Quote from: tatanab
The mark of a true cyclist - prepared to try anything on offer

If it ain't bad for you it ain't worth doing

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 03:20:00 pm »
A fecking ace repair but I fear for the chidlers. they'll have their eyes out on those bolts ;D

Rest assured that in the event of either of us becoming pregnant, I'll take a dremel to them immediately.  I'm all about the health & safety, me.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2011, 03:33:57 pm »
A fecking ace repair but I fear for the chidlers. they'll have their eyes out on those bolts ;D

Rest assured that in the event of either of us becoming pregnant, I'll take a dremel to them immediately.  I'm all about the health & safety, me.

That's a tactic we never thought of when we were bringing up kids.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

RJ

  • Droll rat
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2011, 05:34:12 pm »
(Back on topic  ;)) ...

... one of my Bike Packers split a bottom seam from side to side a year or two ago (fair wear & tear).  I managed to blag some PVC tarpaulin material in a vaguely matching colour and bodged a new base, fixed to the outside of the old fabric with a combination of glue, rivets, small nuts & bolts and the plastic strip at the bottom/back of the pannier.

Ugly as sin, but effective. 

(I keep meaning to get pictures on to Skip Bike & Bodge It ...)

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2011, 02:06:26 pm »
Arrgh.  They've sent me a pair of E163s!

Reading the instructions, it looks like they'll do the job, but I don't really want a transparent patch over a pair of thumb-sized holes.  It'll look terrible!
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2011, 11:30:13 pm »
Okay, on the basis that it seemed like the best[1] way of doing this, I've invested in a number of individual patches as mentioned up thread.

Today, I applied them:

I patched the main holes (thumbnail-sized, in the PS490 side section) using a large piece of PD620 on both the inside and outside.  The inside patch overlaps the join between the pannier's two materials.

First I cleaned the area thoroughly with citrus-based degreaser stuff, to remove the gaffer tape residue from the temporary patch.  Then wiped it down with methanol to remove the degreaser.  After cutting patches to size (with nice rounded corners to avoid snagging), I applied the glue as per the E163 kit instructions: Copious amounts to both surfaces, and allow to dry for two minutes (which takes it to the tacky side of completely dry) before placing the patch.  Then apply pressure for a couple of hours (in this case by stacking dictionaries on top of it) while it dries.  As there was a large amount of missing material, I cunningly placed a piece of card inside the pannier while applying the outer patch, so it wouldn't glue to the opposite side.

This appears to have been entirely successful - the patches have bonded securely to the material, and unless something manages to snag an edge, I expect it to be as durable as the rest of the pannier.  Looks pretty awful though, as it's an obvious patch of PVC on the nylon area.

For the less serious cut on the bottom of the pannier (a centimetre long clean slit in the PS490), I used a single patch of PD350 on the outside.  This is the thinner PVC material used in the 'plus' version of the panniers, which is more flexible, and being less shiny, a marginally better cosmetic match for the PS490 nylon.  Given the location, I reckoned a more flexible material would be worthwhile, as it tends to be where the material folds when the pannier is packed flat.

This also bonded well, though I managed to cock up the application of glue to the nylon surface, leaving a ~5mm strip down one edge of the patch that didn't stick.  I have cleaned and re-applied glue to both surfaces (holding the edge of the patch back with fingernails for a couple of minutes while it dried), and I'll leave it under pressure overnight.  Fingers crossed it will be okay in the morning.


Initial impressions are that the adhesive in the E163 kit does what it says on the tin (that is: a generic waterproof seam sealant/adhesive effective for PS490, PD350, PD620 and various other materials commonly used by Ortlieb).  The patches supplied in the kit are small, transparent PVC material - if you're repairing a pannier with anything other than a small puncture, I'd strongly recommend a more substantial patch of matching material, but they're probably useful for tents, airbeds etc.

Obviously if you're patching PD620, I recommend a colour matched PD620 patch, but I reckon the PD350 is actually a better match for PS490 in terms of flexibility (and since Ortlieb make the newer panniers entirely from it, it should be fine for durability).  Unfortunately, patching woven nylon with PVC is going to look fairly awful cosmetically whichever material you use.  There's an argument in favour of the 'plus' versions of the panniers on this basis alone.

Don't skimp on the glue, and it's well worth sticking a second patch internally if the damage is non-trivial.


I'll take some photos and do a leak-test tomorrow.  And see how it performs in use on the Scottish camping trip at the weekend.



[1] "If you're using adhesives," said Kim, "you're probably doing it wrong."
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

gerwinium

  • Occasional smug folding bastard
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2011, 06:46:11 am »
I'll take some photos and do a leak-test tomorrow.  And see how it performs in use on the Scottish camping trip at the weekend.

Surely a camping trip in Scotland counts as a leak-test? Well done, hope you enjoyed the solvents :).

fuzzy (retd.) AAGE

  • SWMBO's Toy Boy.
  • Apprentice Leathery Old Git
    • The Secret Cyclist blog
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2011, 12:33:47 pm »
Kim,

There is a certain kudos to be gained from displaying the 'distressed' look that your panniers will now have.

The patches of differing colours and materials hint towards tales of miles done and battles won.
Quote from: tatanab
The mark of a true cyclist - prepared to try anything on offer

If it ain't bad for you it ain't worth doing

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2011, 01:06:29 pm »
Okay, the second patch is properly stuck down now.  Not leak-testing as I realise I need to pack for Scotland tonight, and I'm not sure it'll dry that quickly.

As promised, photos:

PD620 patch over major hole.  While it matches the PVC of the outer face of the pannier, it manages to pull off the 'gaffer tape' look surprisingly well  :-\



Internal PD620 patch.  Makes the whole thing rather stiff.  (Also note internal pockets in the 2011 Roller Classic panniers.)



PD350 patch over rip in bottom of pannier.  Excess glue will rub off with fingers.  As you can see, this maintains the flexibility of the surface, and doesn't look quite as gaffer-tapey.  I've used such a large patch because while the rip itself was small, there was significant abrasion to the surrounding area.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2011, 08:50:23 pm »
Well, it appears to have survived a weekend of Traditional Scottish Weather, cake-cramming, train abuse and being shat on by what I assume must have been a wild haggis, without any evidence of leaking.  The patches are still firmly attached.   :thumbsup:

The PD620 patch looks a lot better when the pannier has a nice even coating of road grime, actually.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2011, 06:55:06 pm »
That pannier's still going strong, as is the Topeak tri-bag which I not-quite-waterproofed by gluing a couple of spare PD620 patches back-to-back over the stupid mesh flap.  In the interests of economy, I bought a large tube of generic vinyl adhesive for a couple of quid, which seems to work as well as the stuff in the patch kit.

This evening, I applied a PD350 patch over a small tear in one of Altura Orkney panniers that I replaced[1] with the Back-Rollers.  The area I'm patching is a durable nylon, and not critical to the waterproofing of the pannier, but reinforcement will prevent further damage.  I don't forsee any problems.  Photos to come.


[1] It turned out that the Alturas would foul the cable arm of the rear disc brake on the Streetmachine at certain points in the suspension travel.  Fabricating a guard out of a spare spoke allowed the brake to operate freely, but wore a small hole in the pannier.  I switched to Ortliebs as they sit higher on the rack, and stay clear of the brake.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Crash damaged Ortlieb, suggestions?
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2012, 12:31:01 am »
Update:  Unfortunately, that pannier is leaking again.

Pressure-testing reveals that the patches are holding fine, but the extensive low-level abrasion to the PS490 side panel has developed several new small leaks.  I'm reluctant to add yet more patches, as it would get a bit silly.  I've retired that one from active service (keeping it in reserve for cannibalisation of fittings) and obtained a replacement.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...