custom frame arrived not as specced, what would you do?

[Arno]

I've received a a frame from a well established independent builder, which I'd rather not name. Before going ahead with the order, I had asked him to confirm by email the tube sizes, because a few numbers had been mentioned in previous conversations and those were 32mm seat and top tube and 40mm down tube (titanium). Incidentally those are also the tube sizes of the VN Yukon.

The frame that arrived has 45mm downtube, quite a bit more beefy than anticipated.
Not sure if I should still go ahead and use it to do a build or insist on a replacement. Am not too fussed about the extra weight, but wondering if the thing will become too stiff (am 72kg weight) or uncomfortable as a result. Difficult to test because it has not been build into a bike yet.


Any ideas?

Cheers,

Arno.

[Andrew Br]

I had a similar experience with a custom Ti frame from a well known English maker.
I wondered for a few days what to do but I realised that I would never be happy with how it was so I complained.
It helped that I had copies of the e-mails between the designer and me, so I could point out what I'd asked for and what they'd agreed to.
They took the frame back and altered it. The frame still isn't exactly as I'd wanted, or would like it to be, but it's near enough and it's a joy to ride so I'm fairly happy.

My advice: you should definitely discuss your misgivings with the builder. If they're serious about their work/reputation then they should be sympathetic and will want to make sure that you're happy. It'll help if you have copies of your communications with them.
Have an idea what you want them to do before you start the discussions; I probably wasn't firm enough on this so I've got something that's 95% what I want.

Good luck.

[Arno]

Thanks for sharing your experience CB.
What makes me hesitate is that my supplier is not a big business and would not stomach a loss on a frame as easily... didn't think about the possibility of altering a frame before you mentioned it.
The other aspect is that if the frame has extreme specs its a bit harder to re-sell in future (not saying the bike will be resold but nice to have the option).

[Sergeant Pluck]

Perhaps if you talk to the builder, he might have had a reason for the change, and may even convince you that it is better. As it may well be? The ride will depend on so many other factors, geometry, wall thickness, how the tubes are joined, that the change in diameter of the down tube may not be major influence.

I’d be much more interested in checking that the sizing and geometry is what was ordered, given that you’ve already seen a deviation from the spec.

[Andrew Br]

Thanks for sharing your experience CB.
What makes me hesitate is that my supplier is not a big business and would not stomach a loss on a frame as easily... didn't think about the possibility of altering a frame before you mentioned it.

I suppose that you have to consider what margin the supplier makes on a frame and the value that they put on their reputation.
Assuming that the supplier makes a margin of 50+%, as I imagine that they would, then one "wrong" frame in 10/20/30.......100 etc probably doesn't matter so much. They may also be able to get their manufacturer to accept some of the cost, particularly if the manufacturer has cocked up.
There is also the possibility that the supplier sell "your" frame as a "special/prototype/cancelled order" etc.

Ultimately it's up to you, but it's your money and you should have got what you asked for.
I know that I would have always resented my frame if I had not complained about it and I would never have enjoyed riding it.

FWIW, here are "before" and "after pictures of my bike:-


DSC_0084 by Chocolatebike1, on Flickr



11-06-09 Disc-braked Enigma road bike LHS by Chocolatebike1, on Flickr

The major change is the shorter head-tube but the seat-tube is also a bit shorter. In an ideal world, I'd have 2-3cm more stand-over height.
The bike now has a different fork and looks like this:-


12-03-24 Enigma on Monsal Tunnels route by Chocolatebike1, on Flickr

It's the best picture that I currently have. The mudguards don't look great but you've got to dig the Carradice.

[why1040]

As I understand it, the whole point of having a custom frame is that you get exactly what you want-and generally pay a premium for that service.  If you wanted something "almost there", you could have got an off-the-shelf frame.

If it were me, I'd go back to the retailer and explain the situation, if nothing else to make sure they've actually sent you the right frame.

If the supplier is so small that one frame is going to bankrupt them, then they have a responsibility to make darned sure that they provide the right thing BEFORE it goes out...it is not your responsibility to take something that isn't what you ordered and paid for to keep them afloat.

[Biggsy]

I think Sergeant Pluck makes a very good point that it's worth discussing it with the builder before deciding whether you want it or not.

A stiffer down tube than expected could make acceleration more efficient without necessarily spoiling comfort, for all I know.

[Jaded]

One thing to consider, if you are worried about the effect on the builder, is that his price will be made up of various factors:

the equipment needed to make the bike
The occupancy of the building, power, etc.
His skills
His time
The materials used in the bike frame.

TBH I'd say that his only real loss in the case of a scrappage is the latter, all the others have to be paid anyway or could be made up in a crisis by weekend working etc.

So i think his real loss on a scrapped frame would be lower than you'd imagine.

[Biggsy]

The builder's time and overheads weren't paid for if he refunds the customer's money, and working extra hours is a big deal.  But I wouldn't let that influence the decision.  The decision should be entirely based on how much you believe you will like the frame (after getting sufficient info and advice).

[wfbroddy]

...What makes me hesitate is that my supplier is not a big business.....

All the more reason to have a chat with the builder, my experience of most small businesses (granted not inthe bike trade) are they will bend over backwards to help out a genuinely disatisfied customer, where an honest mistake has been made. As opposed to a large company that can stall you

After all most small business have there reputation by word of mouth (Mount  ) and one cheesed of punter can lead to 10 other jobs going else where, give them the chance to make amends just don't take any flannel about it being better as you got more for your money unless there is truth in what they even if you need to verfify this with another source.

[henshaw11]

A stiffer down tube than expected could make acceleration more efficient without necessarily spoiling comfort, for all I know.

I think a stiff downtube is one of the features of some of the Paris-Roubaix orientated framessets (eg Specialized) which still need some compliance elsewhere I'd think, so it may not be a problem. A bit surprising to consciously change it without letting on, tho'.

One thing to consider, if you are worried about the effect on the builder, is that his price will be made up of various factors:

the equipment needed to make the bike
The occupancy of the building, power, etc.
His skills
His time
The materials used in the bike frame.

TBH I'd say that his only real loss in the case of a scrappage is the latter, all the others have to be paid anyway or could be made up in a crisis by weekend working etc.

So i think his real loss on a scrapped frame would be lower than you'd imagine.

I think that may not be the case for a very small company/one-man-band (other that the cost of equipment). The guy would have spent n days working for no return, so he's got to pay for all the above in addition to scrapping the frame (unless he can sell it on, possibly at a reduced price). Or put it another way, not only does he have commercial overheads to pay, but also to provide himself with some income

In the case of a large manufacturer - yes, the overheads are there already, but the scrappage on one frame is a relatively less significant sum.

However,  he *is* supposed to be providing what you asked for, so you shouldn't feel overly charitable about saving him a screw-up, if that's what it is. Best find out why first...

[Jaded]

The builder's time and overheads weren't paid for if he refunds the customer's money, and working extra hours is a big deal.  But I wouldn't let that influence the decision.  The decision should be entirely based on how much you believe you will like the frame (after getting sufficient info and advice).

They also aren't paid for if he has no orders. So unless he is busy 100% of the time already, including weekends and evenings, they are not relevant.

[Biggsy]

They also aren't paid for if he has no orders. So unless he is busy 100% of the time already, including weekends and evenings, they are not relevant.

A decent frame builder has a backlog of orders and doesn't regard Sundays and evenings as free time.  Time is money, unless you're doing it as a hobby.

[alexb]

Based on my very limited experience - I made one frame with Dave Yates - I think that the "comfort" in the ride seems to come from the forks, the rear end and the tryes and rims.
The stiffness seems to come from the main triangle.

If I was to buld the bike I have again, I'd have increased tube sizes in the main triangle and thinned down the for legs and seatstays.
My old Raleigh has noticeably thinner fork legs and seat stays and is much more compliant than my new frame.

I did a lot of research beforehand, but compromised the design because I wanted a particular style of dropout, which mandated thicker stays and fork legs. I decided against larger diameter frame tubes because I didn't like the look.

The bike is amazing to ride, but it is stiffer in the forks and stays and the chain rubs on the chainring when I get out of the saddle which suggests that the BB could have been stiffer, so a bigger downtube might have helped there.

As others have said, I'd phone the builder, ask why the bike has deviated from specification and see what they say.
The builder should have discussed this with you before changing the spec. He may have changed the spec as a result of forgetting, misunderstanding your spec, or as a result of an independent decision on his part (in which case he should have asked first).

From my perspective, I think a bigger down tube might end up being a blessing in disguise. I doubt you'd be able to tell any difference in ride quality between two bikes otherwise identical, but for the downtube diameter.

[Jaded]

They also aren't paid for if he has no orders. So unless he is busy 100% of the time already, including weekends and evenings, they are not relevant.

A decent frame builder has a backlog of orders and doesn't regard Sundays and evenings as free time.  Time is money, unless you're doing it as a hobby.

His real cash loss is still only the cost of the materials, however you look at it.

[Arno]

Thanks all for your thoughts. Two things explain the difference. When he confirmed the size by email, he responded 40mm but his notes were 42. He then sent the order to the factory who didn't have 42mm tubes in stock so decided of their own accord to use 45mm as they consider them 'almost equivalent'.

Arno.

[Biggsy]

From that explanation, I reckon you're entitled to reject the frame if you want, Arno, and get an alteration/replacement/refund for no extra charge.  Personally, first, I would consider any advantages of the 45mm tube, as well as the hassle factor of sending it back and further waiting.

His real cash loss is still only the cost of the materials, however you look at it.

There's cash cost for the overheads because after refunding there's reduced income to pay for it (because the number of orders in a life time is less than infinite).  The time cost is important as well - possibly more important (increases backlog or spoils personal time).

[Ian H]

With a Ti frame you have to ask where it's actually built.

[vorsprung]

What would you do?

I'd build it up and ride it and see if it is rotten as you are claiming
When it isn't I would be happy

[Regulator]

Thanks all for your thoughts. Two things explain the difference. When he confirmed the size by email, he responded 40mm but his notes were 42. He then sent the order to the factory who didn't have 42mm tubes in stock so decided of their own accord to use 45mm as they consider them 'almost equivalent'.

Arno.

So this frame builder didn't actually build the frame?

I'd reject on the basis that it wasn't as required and specified.  Otherwise they may try to talk/guilt trip you into keeping a frame that isn't suitable - and you'll always have that niggle in the back of your mind...

[Biggsy]

It's not crystal clear yet whether the factory built the frame or just supplied the tubes - although the term "used 45mm" rather than "supplied 45mm" implies they did build it.

[Arno]

It's not crystal clear yet whether the factory built the frame or just supplied the tubes - although the term "used 45mm" rather than "supplied 45mm" implies they did build it.

He's a builder and also acts as an intermediary for a company in Russia (and makes it very clear) and helps with getting the geometry right. Am not a specialist, but the welds look very smooth, and the end product looks really well made.

[Andrew Br]

If it's who I think it is, the quality of the bikes that he supplies is very good based on what I've seen and heard.
My GF has just been told that her new frame is ready and we're expecting it to arrive next week. Which is exciting.

[mike]

If it's who i think it is, mrs mike loves her new frame from the same place.  I'd phone him and have a chat about it, he seems to know what he's talking about re. bike design.

[alexb]

I have to say that I really can't quite understand why you haven't yet spoken to the builder.

Getting advice from random souls from an internet forum rather than talking to the builder directly really doesn't get you anywhere and of course we could happily wind you up to the point where you're furious about the whole affair, yet the builder is in all likelihood going to be very decent about everything.

It's in his interest to treat his customers well.

Yet customers offten slag off builders before talking to them (not saying this is the case here). If you are a regular on frame building forums then builders have to deal with this on a regular basis, when what they really want is for their customers to talk through any problems immediately.