Author Topic: Tubeless for Dummies  (Read 37507 times)

Morat

  • I tried to HTFU but something went ping :(
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #525 on: February 08, 2017, 04:39:00 pm »
I'm still not sure of the difference between UST and Tubeless Ready. Is it possible to run Tubeless Ready rims without lashings of rim tape? Do none/some/all have spokes exposed on the tyre side of the rim?
Tandem Stoker, CX bike abuser (slicks and tarmac) and owner of a sadly neglected MTB.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #526 on: February 08, 2017, 05:23:32 pm »
I'm still not sure of the difference between UST and Tubeless Ready. Is it possible to run Tubeless Ready rims without lashings of rim tape? Do none/some/all have spokes exposed on the tyre side of the rim?

UST (Universal Standard Tubeless) is a well defined industry standard. UST rims have no spoke holes on the tyre side. 'Tubeless ready' is a marketing term that can mean pretty much whatever the manufacturer wants it to mean. Tubeless ready rims generally require tape.

This is something I've been wondering about myself since I'm looking to buy a tubeless rim for a wheel build I'm contemplating.

One corollary question I have is: how the feck do you get the nipples into UST rims? Are these the ones that require you to fit the nipple in an insert that you screw into the rim? If so, how do you calculate spoke length for a UST wheel?

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #527 on: February 08, 2017, 05:36:55 pm »
you fit some test spokes of known length (opposite one another), measure the gap and then calculate the ERD from that.

The inserts (which are sometimes nipples rather than nipple carriers, or can be spoke carriers if the nipples are at the hub end) are all highly susceptible to seizure in our lovely climate.

cheers

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #528 on: February 08, 2017, 06:05:52 pm »
you fit some test spokes of known length (opposite one another), measure the gap and then calculate the ERD from that.

Seems pretty obvious now you mention it.

Quote
The inserts (which are sometimes nipples rather than nipple carriers, or can be spoke carriers if the nipples are at the hub end) are all highly susceptible to seizure in our lovely climate.

Hmmm. Might just stick to a 'tubeless ready' rim then.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #529 on: February 08, 2017, 08:59:16 pm »
you fit some test spokes of known length (opposite one another), measure the gap and then calculate the ERD from that.

Seems pretty obvious now you mention it.

Quote
The inserts (which are sometimes nipples rather than nipple carriers, or can be spoke carriers if the nipples are at the hub end) are all highly susceptible to seizure in our lovely climate.

Hmmm. Might just stick to a 'tubeless ready' rim then.


They work.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #530 on: February 08, 2017, 09:21:59 pm »
Am I correct in summarising that:
Optimal is tubeless tyres and rim, best/essential for higher pressures Yes
Rims can be adapted to tubeless with stans tape, depending on the rim you will hold higher pressuresNo, whether a rim works for tubeless depends on the shape of the channel and the height of the sides. You need a channel with shelves for the bead to sit on, rather than one that slopes gently up to the rim wall - compare profiles of Kinlin 22T and H Plus Son Archetype (below). All these rims need tape. I don't really like Stans and have started using a polyester tape that is similar to the caffelatex tape, but cheaper. The tape seals the holes, but can be used with tubes as well of course. Some rims have a suitable shape, but don't claim to be tubeless ready - you may find bead channel dimensions are not optimal for example. Others don't claim to be tubeless, look the wrong shape but people still do it (archetype is the classic), which I wouldn't.
Tyres can be adapted to tubeless with stans sealant, but you need to run low pressures Sometimes, at your own risk. There is widespread variation in experience. I've done Vittoria Voyager Hypers, based on this link https://whosatthewheel.com/2015/08/10/ghetto-tubeless-conversions/, but one blew off at 80psi when wet with detergent. I run them at 50 to 60 on the road, but it's all a bit of a careful experiment. The issue for road tubeless is that the bead isn't as strong and is stretchier, hence the risk of the tyre dismounting itself.
You can adapt both rims and tyres Never tried, but I presume you could

The further you go down the list the lower your psi and the greater the risk. Yes and, definitely, yes!

Note, you will always need sealant. This is a topic for discussion in an of itself...

Some rim profiles - archetype is not tubeless compatible




Some more - you can work it out



finally, DT  Swiss rr511 has a lovely profile




Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #531 on: February 08, 2017, 09:35:21 pm »
Can anyone comment from experience on whether or not rim tape (Stan's in my case) should be replaced when replacing a tyre? I'm finding my tyres are lasting for about 10,000km or so and have only replaced front and rear once each and I've simply left the tape I'd originally fitted in place. Is this normal practise, or should it be renewed with a new tyre? Certainly, I've had no issues so far but perhaps I've just been lucky?
Eddington number(km): 101

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #532 on: February 08, 2017, 10:31:47 pm »
Can anyone comment from experience on whether or not rim tape (Stan's in my case) should be replaced when replacing a tyre? I'm finding my tyres are lasting for about 10,000km or so and have only replaced front and rear once each and I've simply left the tape I'd originally fitted in place. Is this normal practise, or should it be renewed with a new tyre? Certainly, I've had no issues so far but perhaps I've just been lucky?

I would only replace if it got dislodged or otherwise leaked

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #533 on: February 08, 2017, 10:43:06 pm »
I would only replace if it got dislodged or otherwise leaked

Good, that was my thinking, and I'm taking the same approach with the valves. Thanks.
Eddington number(km): 101

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #534 on: February 08, 2017, 10:48:15 pm »
Tubeless tape is ridiculously expensive. Anybody know of a decent alternative?

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #535 on: February 08, 2017, 10:57:15 pm »
Gorilla tape.

Big roll was six quid I think - cut to width on the roll.

(I picked it up because I happened to spot it on the shelf in a builder's merchant, about three days after I'd read that the rim tape supplied by one of the tubeless rim manufacturers was custom-cut Gorilla tape. A couple of layers seem to work just fine.)

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #536 on: February 08, 2017, 11:06:26 pm »
I'm about to try 3M 8992 - I've got 3 rolls 25mm wide, but will cut one down to 20mm. It's like the caffelatex tape. Turns out I can get cut to size when I order, so I may do that next time. I'll report back next week.

If you like Stans, then Tesa 4289 is widely available on the evil auction site for a tenner for 66m.

Mike

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #537 on: February 09, 2017, 07:09:36 am »
Thanks everyone

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #538 on: February 13, 2017, 01:42:31 pm »

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #539 on: February 17, 2017, 10:55:38 am »
Some rim profiles...

If anyone's interested, here's another - Stan's Grail, which I have just bought for the disc brake/dynamo wheel I'm about to build:




A propos of which, I'm not planning to use it tubeless initially, but bearing in mind that I will probably switch to tubeless sooner or later, would it be worth using tubeless tape rather than conventional rim tape? Or will that cause problems in use with tubes?

Karla

  • car(e) free
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #540 on: February 17, 2017, 11:00:28 am »
This might be of interest to some

https://whosatthewheel.com/2015/08/10/ghetto-tubeless-conversions/

Last year I gave emergency couch space to a rather bloodied friend who had tried that for crit racing.  The only thing that surprised me when his tyre rolled off on the last hairpin, was that it had stayed on for all the previous laps.
Someone on here once gave me a pompino for free

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #541 on: February 17, 2017, 11:07:35 am »
A propos of which, I'm not planning to use it tubeless initially, but bearing in mind that I will probably switch to tubeless sooner or later, would it be worth using tubeless tape rather than conventional rim tape? Or will that cause problems in use with tubes?

Doesn't cause problems with tubes - but I've found it's easy to damage the tape with tyre levers when fitting particularly tight (non-tubeless) tyres.  Thick conventional rim tapes like Velox can make it difficult to fit tyres to tubeless-ready rims as it fills the well in the centre.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #542 on: February 17, 2017, 11:33:44 am »
Doesn't cause problems with tubes - but I've found it's easy to damage the tape with tyre levers when fitting particularly tight (non-tubeless) tyres.  Thick conventional rim tapes like Velox can make it difficult to fit tyres to tubeless-ready rims as it fills the well in the centre.

Hmmm. Thanks for the info. So, potential problems either way... Maybe it will be best to just bite the bullet and go tubeless.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #543 on: February 17, 2017, 12:51:57 pm »
This might be of interest to some

https://whosatthewheel.com/2015/08/10/ghetto-tubeless-conversions/

Last year I gave emergency couch space to a rather bloodied friend who had tried that for crit racing.  The only thing that surprised me when his tyre rolled off on the last hairpin, was that it had stayed on for all the previous laps.

I wouldn't attempt it either, personally, but then I'm not as penny-pinching as some  ;)

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #544 on: February 17, 2017, 12:58:37 pm »
Hmmm. Thanks for the info. So, potential problems either way... Maybe it will be best to just bite the bullet and go tubeless.

Why the implied reticence?
Eddington number(km): 101

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #545 on: February 17, 2017, 04:04:56 pm »
Why the implied reticence?

Purely the cost of tubeless tyres. Don't really fancy the ghetto conversion of the current tyres (Marathon Supremes). Will probably make the switch next time the tyres need replacing.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #546 on: February 17, 2017, 04:13:25 pm »
This might be of interest to some

https://whosatthewheel.com/2015/08/10/ghetto-tubeless-conversions/

Last year I gave emergency couch space to a rather bloodied friend who had tried that for crit racing.  The only thing that surprised me when his tyre rolled off on the last hairpin, was that it had stayed on for all the previous laps.

I wouldn't attempt it either, personally, but then I'm not as penny-pinching as some  ;)


Agree with Flatus on that. I wouldn't consider a ghetto conversion for racing, hard cornering or narrow tyres that will get used at high pressure. I am very cautious even with wide low pressure tyres, and they'll get swapped out in due course.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #547 on: February 17, 2017, 04:33:06 pm »
Why the implied reticence?

Purely the cost of tubeless tyres. Don't really fancy the ghetto conversion of the current tyres (Marathon Supremes). Will probably make the switch next time the tyres need replacing.

If you shop around...

Wiggle did Hutchinson Sector 32 for £28. (Ideal winter tyre)

I got some Schwalbe Pro Ones from France for not much a while back.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #548 on: February 17, 2017, 06:24:30 pm »
Doesn't cause problems with tubes - but I've found it's easy to damage the tape with tyre levers when fitting particularly tight (non-tubeless) tyres.  Thick conventional rim tapes like Velox can make it difficult to fit tyres to tubeless-ready rims as it fills the well in the centre.

Hmmm. Thanks for the info. So, potential problems either way... Maybe it will be best to just bite the bullet and go tubeless.

it takes about double the time to mount non-tubeless tyres on tubeless rims; ok ir you are at home, but if you have a puncture while your club mates are waiting in the cold while you faff..
plus you really need a very good full size pump or co2 cartridge for the tyre bead to pop onto the rim "shelf", so be prepared.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #549 on: February 20, 2017, 05:00:03 pm »
Wiggle did Hutchinson Sector 32 for £28. (Ideal winter tyre)

When you put it like that...

Ah, what the heck, it's only money!