Author Topic: Cold Setting  (Read 6270 times)

chris

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Cold Setting
« on: October 06, 2008, 02:23:16 pm »
I have just got back from Gandalfs, having collected the Dawes Super Galaxy frame that was seeking a new home. Having had a good look at the frame, it is in good nick apart from some superficial damage to the paint work. The plan is to make it into a tourer/audax bike for yellow-ceitidh. I think that it deserves a nice new set of wheels, probably some Chrinas or Sputniks from Spa. It is currently sporting a 126mm OLN measurement and I would like to fit it with a hub capable of taking an 8/9 speed cassette.

I have a few questions -

  • My preferred hubs are Shimano MTB (Deore/LX or XT) which are 135m. Would it be better using a Tiagra/105 hub and only spreading the frame to 130mm OLN or will it spread to 135mm without damage?

  • Is Sheldons way of cold setting using a length of 4x2 timber the best way to go about it?

  • Do I need to spread each side of the frame the same amount?



Che

Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2008, 02:36:17 pm »
-> Dunno. What's the case for MTB hubs?
-> I've heard good things about the method, and had intended to try it myself once.
-> Yes, you must. Which is why Sheldon's piece-of-string truing technique is the way to go.

Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2008, 02:39:58 pm »
However you do it, 531 should be cold-set rather than heated to bend.

chris

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2008, 02:45:05 pm »
-> Dunno. What's the case for MTB hubs?

Thanks for that Che and Ian.

All of our other bikes have MTB hubs. I've nothing against road hubs, it just makes swapping wheels between bikes easier.

Biggsy

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2008, 03:24:35 pm »
135mm wouldn't be too much, though ideally the dropouts and hanger should be re-aligned as well.  This re-alignment would hardly (or not at all) be necessary if just springing* or spreading to 130mm.

132.5mm would be a good compromise and would enable the frame to take both 130 and 135mm hubs.

Each side of the frame should be spread by the same amount.  The timber method is probably the best DIY one in terms of controlling the amount each side is spread.  The threaded rod* method is the easiest, though it's possible that one side would spread more than the other.  Corrections could be made afterwards by switching to the timber method.

* Forcing the stays apart by hand each time the wheel is fitted, rather than permanently setting.

** Threaded rod through dropouts with washers and nuts on the inside.  Turn a nut to spread the frame.  Keep stopping to measure the OLN with the rod removed.
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toekneep

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2008, 03:37:03 pm »
I've never done a cold set but I have considered it and wondered if a simple car jack would do the trick. Assuming you could locate it securely of course, would it not ensure that the frame was spread evenly? Just a thought, usual disclaimers etc.

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2008, 04:04:52 pm »
You can't be sure the frame will be spread evenly with any method that pushes both sides at the same time, because one side of the frame might be more pliable than the other.

That said, I did my Raleigh Royal with a threaded rod, didn't bother mesuring to check symmetry afterwards, and it rides OK.

You might want to take more care with a more precious frame.  But if it's one that doesn't owe you anything, just have a go!
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toekneep

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2008, 04:06:38 pm »
You can't be sure the frame will be spread evenly with any method that pushes both sides at the same time, because one side of the frame might be more pliable than the other.

That said, I did my Raleigh Royal with a threaded rod, didn't bother mesuring to check symmetry afterwards, and it rides OK.

You might want to take more care with a more precious frame.  But if it's one that doesn't owe you anything, just have a go!
Ah, now that you have said that I can see that the threaded rod is probably easier to control.

Biggsy

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2008, 04:14:06 pm »
Threaded rod is good for precisely controlling the total amount of spread (as you can do it by very small amounts at a time), but you don't have control over which side is being spread the most.  You just have to hope both sides are spreading evenly, or be prepared to do a correction afterwards with another method.

It makes no difference which nut you turn because both just increase the length of rod between the dropouts.
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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2008, 04:17:04 pm »
I cold set Bikenerd's old frame to 120mm (from 126) and I also took the old Orbit from 126mm to 130mm.  Both were specifically checked for tracking by professional framebuilders at their next respray, and both were spot on.

It's just a case of putting the frame on its side (carpet/lawn) and pulling up/pushing down on the dropout while your foot is on the seat tube.  The thicker the stays, the more of a gorilla you need to be.  Keep checking with a piece of string run round the head tube and dropouts - you have to get the distance between the string and the seat tube within 1mm on either side.  Never hold one side while pushing/pulling the other - always move them independently.

Then check the dropouts for parallel using a long straight edge - it should be in the same plane as the top and down tubes.  If not, adjustment involves a big adjustable spanner used gingerly.  With small changes in OLD you can (and probably should) ignore the last step, unless you're using a hub gear when parallel dropouts are quite important for correct function.

Never tell me the odds.

robgul

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2008, 04:19:15 pm »
Have a look at  www.beewee.org.uk  and the "Briefings" for some thoughts on cold-setting frames.

I have tried the "Sheldon's Lumber" method and it was a bit hit and miss - the threaded rod, with a string to assess alignment, is comfortable IMHO

My (best) Galaxy Tourer has a Deore rear hub but with some cone/spacer reduction to reduce the width a gnat's ... still copes with an 8 speed cassette (I actually use a 7 speed with a spacer)

Rob

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2008, 04:19:33 pm »
By the way, the amount the stays have to be pushed apart to get any permanent spread at all is alarming to look at.  The frame springs back a lot.

You'll be thinking: "Oh my gosh, this can't be right!!"
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Zoidburg

Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2008, 05:43:44 pm »
I wouldnt go from a 126 to a 135

Tried it before and its a rather dodgy procedure which stresses even a steel chain stay beyond what I consider sensible

chris

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2008, 08:31:42 pm »
We're back from the garage. Katie stripped the bike down to a bare frame then I set about setting the frame. We now have a 133mm OLN. The studding method did not work, even winding it out to 160mm only changed the OLN from 126 to 127 mm. In the end I resorted to Mr Browns lumber method and it worked a treat. I noticed some flaked paint around the dimple in the right chain stay about 3inches from the bottom bracket so I scraped the paint back to bare metal and there is no sign of any damage to the metal, so I think that we got away with it.

Biggsy

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2008, 09:13:13 pm »
The studding method does work if you wind it out enough.  You can go beyond 160mm.  I did warn that it looks an alarming amount.

You will now need to measure carefully to check that you've done a symmetrical job.
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chris

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2008, 09:20:00 pm »
I used the string method and it came out symmetrical (well within 0.5mm). I also bent the drop outs in using big adjustable spanner so that the faces are parallel.

Thanks for all the advice.

Biggsy

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2008, 09:21:00 pm »
All sounds good.  Wel done, and good luck with the bike.
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Gandalf

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2008, 06:37:35 am »
That was quick work, Chapeau!

Charlotte

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2009, 10:09:38 am »
Going to have a crack at the precision method this afternoon.

If I buy myself a length of threaded rod and a handful of nuts and washers, what diameter rod should I go for?  8mm?
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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2009, 10:16:42 am »
Are you opening or closing the gap?  If the rod's going to be in compression, the bigger the better.  M10 should fit in the dropouts.

Charlotte

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2009, 10:23:25 am »
Opening the gap, so compression.  I suppose I need to know what the axle size is for a standard Shimano hub.
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robgul

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2009, 01:54:44 pm »
Going to have a crack at the precision method this afternoon.

If I buy myself a length of threaded rod and a handful of nuts and washers, what diameter rod should I go for?  8mm?

M8 is the stuff you'll need .... I actually have a "tool" made for the job in my workshop - about a foot of M8 studding with, from one end ... an aero nut to keep the rough end tidy, 1 large M8 "repair washer" (it's actually 2 glued together for a thicker washer), 2 regular M8 nuts, another double washer and aero nut on the other end.   I use the thing with a peculiar "open ended ratchet spanner" that I have to speed up the winding process.

You can of course simply lay the frame on the floor, put your foot on the dropout on the floor and pull on the other side of the frame dropout !!

Good luck!

Rob

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2009, 07:08:20 pm »
If you are going from 126mm to 130mm you won't have to do a "cold set", which is actually a permanent bend in teh steel. You are only going for 2mm per side and you can ease that apart every time you put the wheel in.

That's what I did with my Mercian, going from 120mm to 126mm. Saves a lot of worry and the wheel goes in easily.
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border-rider

Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2009, 07:10:53 pm »
Agreed, and it has the advantage that if someone nicks your q/r skewer outside a cafe you can ride to the bikeshop (carefully) to buy another :)

[Gargrave --> Settle, since you ask.]

Charlotte

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Re: Cold Setting
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2009, 03:35:15 pm »
Perhaps unwisely, I'm going up to 135mm so I can use a Deore hub.  Although actually, I'll settle for 132.5mm in case I want to go back to a road specific hub.

I've got my 8mm rod, I've got my washers and my extra long nuts and I've tried to wind it open. 

Sheesh - it's already gone out to 170mm and still sprung back to not much more than a mil or two wider than it was.  I'm worried about doing it some serious damage.  Also, I'm worried that with the non-parrallel nature of the dropouts when it's spread this wide, the whole tool is going to cave in, fly out or otherwise find a way of doing me some serious damage.  When I was winding it back in again after the last go, it was a bit of luck that Hummers turned up at the SEEKRIT BUNKER because it half slipped out and I couldn't get it back without someone just muscling the chainstays apart for me.

So how far should I take it?  180mm?  190?  And what things should I be looking for to tell me to stop?
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