Author Topic: Considering the dark side  (Read 5022 times)

Considering the dark side
« on: 04 June, 2014, 11:12:40 pm »
My wife has been advised by doctor not to ride an upright bike anymore :(
So we are considering the dark side  :)
I've always wanted to try the dark side, and could if I like it consider some Audaxs.
So we probably looking for something which is novice friendly, comfortable and reasonably efficient for longer rides with hills.

My understanding is that most bent bikes/trikes are one size fits all, but can require lengthening/shortening chain.
Is it possible to set a recumbent bike or trike so that it can easily be used by 2 riders of differing leg lengths. I.e. can you use some sort of chain tensioning device?

2nd question is the relative merits of trike or low, mid or high bike. Apologies if this ha been discussed before.

RichForrest

  • T'is I, Silverback.
    • Ramblings of a silverback cyclist
Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #1 on: 05 June, 2014, 12:14:52 am »
1st sorry to here you good lady can't ride anymore.
2nd welcome to the dark side  8)

My wife has been advised by doctor not to ride an upright bike anymore :(
So we are considering the dark side  :)
I've always wanted to try the dark side, and could if I like it consider some Audaxs.
Been there  :)

So we probably looking for something which is novice friendly, comfortable and reasonably efficient for longer rides with hills.
My understanding is that most bent bikes/trikes are one size fits all, but can require lengthening/shortening chain.
Is it possible to set a recumbent bike or trike so that it can easily be used by 2 riders of differing leg lengths. I.e. can you use some sort of chain tensioning device?
Yes trikes can be set up with a crude chain tensioner (Kevin at D-Tek has one on the one he gets riders to try out on).

2nd question is the relative merits of trike or low, mid or high bike. Apologies if this ha been discussed before.
All a personal preference, and what you feel safe on.

The best way to go would be to contact Kevin 01353 648177 and arrange a day over at his trying loads and seeing what suits you best.
Some say he can be a pain to get hold of at times. But I've never had any trouble myself  ;D

Rich

Kim

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Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #2 on: 05 June, 2014, 01:06:13 am »
So we probably looking for something which is novice friendly, comfortable and reasonably efficient for longer rides with hills.

You may find the first and third relatively hard to resolve.  They're all fantastically comfortable compared to upwrongs, but you may have a (possibly medically dictated?) preference for a certain type of seat and steering arrangements.  Under-seat steering is probably the best for least stress on the hands/arms. 

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My understanding is that most bent bikes/trikes are one size fits all, but can require lengthening/shortening chain.

Mostly.  If you're particularly big or small, there are certain models that just aren't going to work.  High bikes may be limited to the small wheel versions if you've got short legs, for example.  ICE do a wider, reinforced version of one of their trikes for larger riders, and so on.

Hardshell seats are quite size-specific (though some have a limited amount of adjustment, and you can muck about with foam to get a perfect fit).  Mesh seats are more vague (but do tend to ventilate better), but more adjustable.

Quote
Is it possible to set a recumbent bike or trike so that it can easily be used by 2 riders of differing leg lengths. I.e. can you use some sort of chain tensioning device?

Chain tensioners for boom adjustment are available from a couple of manufacturers (certainly ICE and Hase do them).  If it's a small difference, you may get away with running the chain slightly slack in certain gear combinations for the shorter rider and/or the taller one being careful not to engage big:big (barakta and I manage this with a 30mm boom extension difference on her ICE Sprint).  Another option would be a couple of quick links and an appropriate extra length of chain to splice in.  It all depends on how quick and easy you need the changeover to be.

Bacchetta style leg length adjustment moves the seat rather than the boom, avoiding chain issues.


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2nd question is the relative merits of trike or low, mid or high bike. Apologies if this ha been discussed before.

Trikes are easy to ride (zero skill required if you keep it below 20mph on corners), and extremely safe (very hard to fall off - even on ice or with a front wheel blowout; awesome braking; drivers give you a wide berth even by recumbent standards) but inherently slower due to the rolling resistance of that extra wheel and all the other bits and bobs in the airstream.  Getting trikes on trains is prohibitively annoying (most operators will refuse to carry them), but folding trikes tend to fit in cars better than DF bicycles.

High vs mid/low bikes is going to be dominated by things like leg length and personal preference, but all else being equal high bikes are going to be better for group riding with uprights (better drafting, less mud in your face, that sort of thing).  High bikes enable the use of larger wheels, which may be desirable, and of course being higher up means you can see more. (Don't worry about being seen in traffic - any recumbent is better seen than a DF bike, just by nature of being unusual.)  Low bikes get an easier time with the wind.


My general advice to darkside newbies would be to plan to change your mind about what you actually want a year or two down the line when you have more experience.  Buying one bike/trike to do everything works at least as badly with recumbents as it does with uprights, and what's easy to ride and reliable tends not to be what's most efficient for audax-style riding.

Second the advice about a visit to DTek (his range of stock and knowledge is second to none), but if he starts being useless at returning phone calls etc, don't hesitate to go elsewhere.

Good luck!

Tigerrr

  • That England that was wont to conquer others Hath made a shameful conquest of itself.
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Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #3 on: 05 June, 2014, 10:15:35 am »
Initially you will find that recumbent riding is slower - it uses a different muscle set. This will particularly hit on longer rides at the outset. Once your legs train in then you will start to see your speeds improve.
The bike you buy at the outset is almost certainly not the bike you will want a year or so in once you have both the fitness and a better grasp of what you want to do with the bike(s).
 Like Kim says - most new cyclists buy hybrids - and a hybrid recumbent is probably not going to be much good on longer rides or terrain.
The good news is that whatever you get you will experience the buzz.
Clear some shed space - you will ned it.
Humanists UK Funeral and Wedding Celebrant. Trying for godless goodness.
http://humanist.org.uk/michaellaird

Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #4 on: 05 June, 2014, 10:39:47 am »
Is it safe to assume that balance is the reason your wife's doctor says "no upwrong cycling" ? If not then I can see no difference between an upwrong and a two wheeled bent.
             If balance or balance related problems are the reason then a trike is the only option and a tadpole the most stable without acrobatics, of the Tadpoles ICE (especially the Sprint - as they are lower than the Adventure - more stability) are the most predictable and stable, we have owned other makes and speak from experience.
              I/we live in North(ish) Oxfordshire and would be happy to let you/wife try ours, re Kevin @ D-tek, yes he is a tad "laid back" but he is such a font of wisdom and a bloody nice bloke to boot it is worth persevering (I have no connection with the company btw  :) ), Re hills I find the "lay back and enjoy it method" works well, if you are prepared to spin then you will get up a hill comparable to a seated upwrong rider and undoubtedly (unless they are suicidal) will beat them downhill creating a grin that will be irremovable.
                             Best of luck
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Kim

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Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #5 on: 05 June, 2014, 11:32:27 am »
Is it safe to assume that balance is the reason your wife's doctor says "no upwrong cycling" ? If not then I can see no difference between an upwrong and a two wheeled bent.

Indeed!  (Which, combined with no mention of upright trikes, is why I assumed the medical reason wasn't balance related.)

I'd suggest that if it were a balance issue, then the last thing you want to do is learn to ride an unfamiliar type of bike.  The main difference between recumbent and upright bikes in balance terms is that you tend to hurt less delicate bits when you fall off (hip/elbow/shoulder rather than hand/wrist/collarbone/face) - not much of an advantage!  Obviously, just like uprights, some bikes are twitchy and good at nipping round corners and others are stable and good at plodding all day with a load - depends whether you want a racer or a tourer.

The possible exception to the above rule might be semi-recumbent / compact-long-wheelbase bikes (eg. HPVelotechnik Spirt, Giant Revie, Bike-E), which handle a lot more like an upright, but are easier to mount and get a foot down.  In performance terms they tend to combine the poor aerodynamics of uprights with the greater weight of recumbents - very much about comfort rather than speed.

Trikes, of course require no balance to ride, but getting in and out of the lower ones might be an issue.

Tigerrr

  • That England that was wont to conquer others Hath made a shameful conquest of itself.
  • Not really a Tiger.
    • Humanist Celebrant.
Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #6 on: 05 June, 2014, 12:42:01 pm »
Forgive this question if it isn't appropriate. Does the doctor in question have the specific knowledge that would mean no more upright cycling? My experience of doctors is that they can be a bit quick to say 'stop doing X' without really knowing the specifics of the X in question.
Might be worth checking in with a cycling specific physiotherapist before going further? Lots of ways to set up bikes to avoid vertical vibration, forward lean strain, arm & wrist pressure etc etc.
Humanists UK Funeral and Wedding Celebrant. Trying for godless goodness.
http://humanist.org.uk/michaellaird

Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #7 on: 05 June, 2014, 02:25:49 pm »
Forgive this question if it isn't appropriate. Does the doctor in question have the specific knowledge that would mean no more upright cycling? My experience of doctors is that they can be a bit quick to say 'stop doing X' without really knowing the specifics of the X in question.
Might be worth checking in with a cycling specific physiotherapist before going further? Lots of ways to set up bikes to avoid vertical vibration, forward lean strain, arm & wrist pressure etc etc.

                    Indeed, my doctor (a lovely person) said she was worried about the "dangers" of cycling to the point of coming over quite anti, I talked to her about this and it turned out a friend of hers (an orthopaedic surgeon) was knocked off in a hit and run on the Banbury Rd in Oxford, by sheer coincidence I was the first person on the scene and rang police ambulance and when they turned up went on my way, (he died later in hospital), I said this to her which surprised and also shocked her as to how I continued cycling after this, they (doctors) are after all only human even if they shouldn't let personal opinions as opposed to facts affect their professional views.
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #8 on: 05 June, 2014, 03:38:09 pm »
I will decline to discuss medical issues further other than to say that balance is not the issue.

A couple of other questions:
1) Do trikes (and or bent bikes) have significant issues with narrow gaps, gates typical on many off-road Sustrans paths. (There is one very nice well paved gentle graded path near home which has a kissing gate at one end. With an upright bike I can get through by lifting the bike vertical and wiggling. With trailer or trailer bike I have to unhitch etc.) 
2) Does the increased width of a trike give problems on narrower paths.
3) Transporting bike/trike by car. Which is easier, folding trike or bike. Can a folding trike be attached to roof or tow-bar mounted carrier?
4) How difficult is it to get off and push a recumbent bike/trike on steep hills?


Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #9 on: 05 June, 2014, 04:18:41 pm »
1) Trikes (what I have experience with) can be a bit of a pain with some gates/poles. I almost never find my way completely blocked, however. Quite often you can cycle under the gate which is cool :-) The kissing gate would be impossible - you'd have to lift the trike over.

2) I don't find the increased width is a problem generally, the main issue is if it's the sort of path with a strip of grass down the middle which your back wheel will be in. These are annoying. There can also be the issue if the path is overgrown both sides with nettles that you may find it's difficult to avoid them if you have short sleeves.

3) I've only ever put my folding trike in the boot of the car but that works fine. It seems easier to load in than my husband's upright bike as it's a more compact shape when folded.

4) Easy as anything to push a recumbent trike. The ICE series have the rack that you can hold. You can push them with all three wheels on the floor or lift up the back wheel and walk along with it in front of you. I find this no trouble at all. The only issue is if you had a heavy touring load of panniers you'd want to put them on the seat (rather than the rack) if wheeling it a long way to improve the centre of gravity.

I second/third/fourth the comment to visit D-Tek if you can arrange it. There are so many options there to choose from that your wife will almost certainly find something she likes.

I was recently at a trike and velomobile meeting in Germany with over 50 different vehicles (see http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk/trike-treffen-schwalmtal-2014/ which has lots of photos). The variety and range is enormous, much more so than appears with upright bikes. There was a guy there who had almost no use of his legs but had a Hase Kettwiesel-type bike which worked really well for him. He could pedal but not really walk. It was great to see the variety of different machines although with a heavy bias to HP Velotechnik Skorpions and Steintrikes Wild One trikes (but this was Germany after all).
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #10 on: 05 June, 2014, 04:30:56 pm »
1, As long as it's a straight run, I can fit my ICE Sprint though a known 1 meter gap at around 20 mph. Plus after 5 years, I'm very good at judging a gap and very rarely get it wrong.
If you cannot do a straight run through a gap then it gets a lot more interesting and all bets are off.

2. Yes and no. Most tracks are just over 1 Meyer wide, so a trikes fit down them fine as long as nothing is coming the other way. If some ones coming the other way, I tend to put one wheel off the track to make room.

3. A folded trike is wider but shorter than a bike,  so it may or may not be easier to fit it in the back of a car.

4. Recumbent trikes tend to have silly low gears. So as long as you have traction on the back wheel, you can pedal up most hills easily but slowly. So you don't need to push it up a hill often.

Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #11 on: 05 June, 2014, 05:05:08 pm »
As a very newbie recumbent bike rider (Nazca Fuego) you can take the following with a pinch of salt:

1) Do trikes (and or bent bikes) have significant issues with narrow gaps, gates typical on many off-road Sustrans paths. (There is one very nice well paved gentle graded path near home which has a kissing gate at one end. With an upright bike I can get through by lifting the bike vertical and wiggling. With trailer or trailer bike I have to unhitch etc.)

I have some difficulties riding through Sustrans type obstacles because a) I'm not as confident about the width (but I'm improving at hitting the slot square on) and b) slaloms and chicanes are more awkward because of the length of the bike (and I'm not as used to the handling). If I can be bothered to get off the bike for kissing gates etc. it's as easy if not easier - just stand the bike on it's back wheel as you would a DF. The only exception to this is one particular gate where the low overhanging hawthorn tree gets stuck in the chain rings because the bike stood on end is taller than me (or rather it used to until I took a pruning saw with me on one trip up that route...)

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4) How difficult is it to get off and push a recumbent bike/trike on steep hills?

For the Fuego - very easy. I've already had practice. I stand on the left, put left hand on the tiller steerer, the right hand on the front of the rack and start walking. I'm not so sure how easy it would be for USS steering, but with tiller steering there are two good handholds. I've also had to get in some unexpected practice pushing on the flat. Our cat has taken to settling down on the seat and likes to be taken for rides up and down the drive... He can get quite possessive about his spot and only surrenders when I push the bike to the far end of the drive (which is neighbouring cat's territory so he scarpers).

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #12 on: 05 June, 2014, 05:30:07 pm »
I have a policy about gates. I am not getting out of my seat so I may resort to Flintstone style reversing tactics which almost always works.  Any gate which can't allow that is a disability barrier to me and I will write to whomever installed it suggesting they make it accessible or I'll escalate to legal action for disability discrimination cos I trike for disability reasons and should not be lifting my trike manually at all.

I can vouch for Oliver at London Recumbents for test rides and helpfulness. He answers emails like deities intended and like Kevin he is good with people who may have disabilities without being patronising. A friend had a problem with his trike from them (a small hard to spot build error leading to issues) and Oliver was quick to fix it as well which I think is a good sign.

Kim

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Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #13 on: 05 June, 2014, 05:46:11 pm »
Experienced recumbent bike (HPV Streetmachine), and occasional recumbent trike (ICE Sprint) rider here...

Silly Sustrans Gates are a mixed bag - there are so many different designs and some are more problematic than others.  The Streetmachine's USS bars are about the same width as those of a mountain bike, so that's your ultimate width limit.  However, while you can ride a trike through a gap dead slow with centimetres to spare, a bicycle needs wobble room to stay upright.  Otherwise you dismount or shuffle it through.  In general, recumbents go through those A-frame barriers quite well (certainly better than uprights), but I have trouble with the lowrider rack on those anti-pedal posts you sometimes get.  Slaloms can be shuffled (bike) or 63-point-turned (trike).  Kissing gates are the arch enemy.  Invest in a RADAR key for gates with RADAR locks.

As the bike weighs 19kg unladen, lifting is reserved for steps and the like.  The ICE trike (without the electrickery) weighs about the same, but lifting is more awkward (barakta and I have a two-person lift down to a fine art, though).  Bear in mind that DF bicycles are relatively manoeuvrable round corners, on account of the front wheel (which is of course articulated by the steering pivot) making up part of the length.  The Streetmachine is about the same length as an equivalent DF touring bike, but as it's one rigid length, is requires a bit more finesse to get round corners (train vestibules and the like).

Lifting over a typical gate is a job for more than one person.  Random helpful people have *no idea* where the centre of mass and weight-bearing parts of a recumbent are, and will hinder, drop or break things unless carefully instructed.


Steep hills are what low gears are for, and any sensible recumbent has plenty of them.  Obviously the only reasons you'd ever want to push a trike up a hill is because it's broken, or because the surface is too slippery for the lightly-loaded rear wheel to get traction.  With an USS bike, pushing is achievable in one of two ways:  Either you grab the back of the seat in one hand and the handlebars in the other, which gives you access to the brakes but gives you backache after a short while; or you push the back of the seat from a standing position and lean the bike to steer.  On a hill that's steep enough for me to have to push (typically because I've had to stop for some reason and with a full touring load can't get going again), my technique is to push the bike from behind, with my forearms resting on the rear rack, tri-bar style.  It's not recommended, and I try to pace myself to ride all hills at whatever pace works.


The ICE Sprint will fit in the boot of a small car when fully folded.  The Streetmachine will fit in the back of a large estate car with the back seats down, or a medium-sized car if you sacrifice the use of the front passenger seat to the boom.  I expect you could probably fit it on one of those towball mounted carriers, but I've never tried.  Hatchback carriers require a diamond frame.  Obviously roof mounting is only going to be an option for tall people good at lifting heavy weights.

Oh, and the Streetmachine fits on trains just fine, though dangly spaces require hanging by the rear wheel, which again means some extremely awkward lifting.

Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #14 on: 06 June, 2014, 12:12:24 pm »
You will not need to push up hills/a hill, fully loaded and knackered I was down to 1mph on a 20% (gearing standard large and middle front 24 inner), that's the beauty of a trike where you would wobble at low speed and have to dismount and push on a trike you just lay back and enjoy it  :P
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #15 on: 06 June, 2014, 04:29:23 pm »
You will not need to push up hills/a hill, fully loaded and knackered I was down to 1mph on a 20% (gearing standard large and middle front 24 inner), that's the beauty of a trike where you would wobble at low speed and have to dismount and push on a trike you just lay back and enjoy it  :P
Unless the back wheel just spins due to the road being damp and greasy.
Then you either have to push it up hill or engage three wheel drive by reaching forward to grab the front wheels lower spokes and pull them towards you. This will slowly winch you uphill until you get enough traction on the back wheel to go back to single wheel drive.
With a 9.5" gear, if I take my time, only hills steeper than 17% are hard work with a full camping load on my trike.

Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #16 on: 07 June, 2014, 01:24:26 pm »
I have found in that situation (as with ice/snow ie on top of lane into my village) that pedalling pulling backward as well as pushing forward thus smoothing the power flow and zig sagging so taking a bit of % out of the gradient helps, as you may realise I am to lazy to get off and push, a thing I have only had to do twice and that was due to the road (again in to my village) being a sheet of ice
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #17 on: 07 June, 2014, 10:10:07 pm »
A nice set of spiked ice tyres solve the slipping problems on ice :smug:
the slower you go the more you see

Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #18 on: 08 June, 2014, 11:37:57 am »
Maybe not on the (what turned out to be) 15% with a small stream running down it coming from The Radnor Arms to Faringdon last week Chris  ;D  Twas 18 Centigrade, I shouldn't have had that cheese and pickle sandwich, it affected me weight distribution   :o

      No ice but twas no my ICE, oh that wasn't what you meant   :facepalm:
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #19 on: 03 July, 2014, 09:30:48 pm »
Just bought a 3rd? hand Challenge Hurricane. Fairly old but in good condition. Tested very briefly in our cul de sac and was surprised how different the steering/balance is. I think it will take quite a bit of practice. Any tips?

Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #20 on: 03 July, 2014, 09:45:11 pm »
Practice doing slow figure of 8's until you can do them as tight as possible.
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is...

Kim

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Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #21 on: 03 July, 2014, 09:55:02 pm »
Start with the seat fully upright, and tilt it back as you get better at controlling the bike with the handlebars rather than your bodyweight.

Otherwise, low-speed handling skills are what you need to practice.  Figure of 8's.  Following lines as closely as possible below walking pace.  Starting and stopping.  That sort of thing.

When climbing, keep the gears low and spin.  Pushing high gears on a recumbent increases wobble and can b0rk your knees (as you've got a seat to brace against, you can exert more force than on an upright).

Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #22 on: 04 July, 2014, 06:01:49 pm »
Oh, and remember to lean back - lots of beginners keep sitting up out of the backrest of the seat.
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is...

Kim

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Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #23 on: 04 July, 2014, 06:08:12 pm »
Oh, and remember to lean back - lots of beginners keep sitting up out of the backrest of the seat.

Similarly, try not to bear weight on the bars.  It just makes the balance more difficult.  Use your shoulders on the seat to brace against pedalling force, not pulling with your arms like you do on an upwrong.

Bracing against the pedals under heavy breaking is something you'll learn quickly the first time you forget to do it...

Re: Considering the dark side
« Reply #24 on: 05 July, 2014, 11:56:14 pm »
Went out with my children today. Its somewhat humbling to be slower than them. I feel like a novice cyclist and am much more wary of traffic. Off-road cycle paths become much more appealing. Also surprised how much more tired I was compared to an upright. Possibly a result of nervous tension.
Things to practice. 1) starting, 2) low speed sharp turns/maneuvering , 3) relaxing back in seat, 4) one handed signalling etc, 5) use of mirror, 6) confidence in traffic.