French-style bikes

[nashd]

I've been riding recumbents for a good number of years, but now quite fancy trying a normal bike again.  Prior to recumbents, my audaxes were ridden on fixed wheel bikes. 

I'm hoping to get a bike fit and translate the settings to an old Peugeot 14-speed racing bike to see how I get on (I stopped riding bikes due to numb fingers).

Thinking ahead, I'm wondering what sort of bike I should try.

The contenders include:-

   1) A Reynolds 753 traditional racing bike (it's used, and possibly a bit too small for me)

   2) A new alternative to the above, with horizontal top tube (possibly something like a Mercian, or even one of the classic Tommasinis or Bassos)

   3) Something a bit more touring-oriented

   4) A Flying Gate

   5) A French-style bike (a la Rene Herse \ Alex Singer) with low trail and lightweight steel frame.

I've read a little about the latter, but don't fully understand how they would ride.  Apparently, they need a load on the front to optimise handling.  I've read that steering is light but stable, but then one owner said his reacts violently to side winds, and needs constant steering correction.

As you can see from my list of bikes, I'm not really sure which way to go.  I'm always drawn to the unusual, and prefer the look of older bikes to the latest carbon bikes.

Has anyone ridden the Rene Herse style of bike, and if so, how did you get on with it?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

You could fit a Nitto Technomic or similar stem to the 753 bike to get the handlebars higher, which traditionally reduces weight supported by hands.

Wider, softer tyres significantly reduce high frequency vibration through the bars, which may help reduce numbness. Older racing bikes generally require narrow, high-pressure tyres. Tyres with flexible casings noticeably reduce vibrations e.g. Marathon Plus tyres ride like teak!

Low trail bikes work better with some weight in a handlebar bag, particularly if the bag is firmly supported on a mini-rack. The geometry has less natural stability/ self-centring which can be partially compensated for with extra (non-swaying) weight close to the headset (rotational inertia). Putting the handlebar bag a long way from the headset means crosswinds are a problem and the rotational inertia becomes too large, leading to overcorrection/ weaving down the road.

[nashd]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I did try a lot of different things when I was experiencing numb fingers, and never got to the root cause. 

I used to ride silk tubs on my summer bike, which were supple, but still relatively narrow.  I even bought a Moulton F-frame and TSR, but they didn't really filter out vibrations.  As you say, I think larger tyres run at lower pressures probably makes the most difference with vibrations.

I suspect the problem is due to my posture (even something as daft as tilting my neck back to look through my glasses).  However, upright riding positions (including flat bars on the TSR) didn't seem to help either.  I also tried all the usual stuff including gloves, padded bars, moving hand positions etc.

I suppose it's early days, and I'll wait until my bike fit (I had a couple of those back in the day, too, but they didn't help either).   However, it's nice to think about various bike options in the meantime!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Moulton suspension is useless for chipseal-type vibration where soft, supple tyres are the only solution. It works well for ‘crappy pothole patches’ and suchlike that would otherwise thump you in the nether regions.

I found that glasses with large lenses (allowing me to peek under my eyebrows) or contact lenses solved neck/ shoulder pains (but not hand issues). My cycling caps usually have the brims tipped up to avoid craning my neck. Aerobars can be helpful in appropriate situations. Moving hands around the bars frequently does help. Many folk lock onto their STI hoods and never move again, which is asking for hand problems.

[nashd]

Thanks very much.

Yes, the Moultons are great on bumps, but don't filter out the high frequncy vibrations of rough roads.

I'll wait to see what the bike fit turns up, but I had thought about large lenses in the past, so I'll look into them.  It's possible the numb fingers stem from the neck\shoulder\back. Unfortunately, I've been told more than once that I can't use contact lenses.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I think core strength issues dramatically affect how people sit on bikes and how their weight is supported.

[Carlosfandango]

I suffered numb fingers on my old steel frame, stiff, hp tyres, narrow diameter bars, stiff steel forks. I went for a titanium gravel bike, less weight on hands, with a plush carbon fork, wide low pressure tyres, larger diameter bars with flat tops, it's much, much better. Read Core Advantage by Tom Danielson.

[nashd]

Thanks very much.  I've ordered a copy of the book.  I did do pilates and had some visits to the chiropractor years ago.  They didn't fix my problem, but perhaps the dedicated core strength exercises will.

[salar55]

Why not buy a gravel bike, not much slower than a AUDAX/RACE bike. They are just a lighter version of an old style touring bike with some more clearance for fatter tyres.

[nashd]

The name puts me off!  I used to ride a Kona Jake The Snake cyclocross bike in the winter, and it always seemed a bit of a lumbering beast in its winter guise, plus the one time I took it on a stoney gravel track it scared me!

I know gravel bikes aren't quite the same thing, but I'm afraid the ones I've seen haven't really appealed to me.

I'm still intrigued by the French Randonneur bikes, but they're probably an acquired taste, and it would be a big risk to buy a frame without being able to try one.

[salar55]

You should try and find /borrow this book for French style bikes I have a few bits for my project

[aidan.f]

If you don't mind mixing old and new I'm very impressed with my first tubeless trike setup. Very comfortable, running 32C Schwalbe Ones at 3.5 bar\50 psi.  It's a weird feeling compared to same tubed tyres at 4.5 bar, slightly squishy but rolling very well.

[Ian H]

Richard Hallett will build a 'French-style' 650B bike.  He'll discuss the geometry with you and probably let you try one or two bikes.
Mine's the black one here http://www.halletthandbuiltcycles.com/650-adventure.html
It now sports a front carrier as seen in one of the other pics, but it doesn't need any front load to handle well.

[mzjo]

 If the appeal of a randonneuse is the comfort of fat 650B tyres then you might appreciate the offbeat combination of a conventional road frame fitted with decent 650B tyres and long-reach brakes. I have done this with a 1990 vintage Gitane road frame (a budget one, not 531 or other high class tubing). It is not measurably slower than it was on 700x23 but the improvement in comfort is out of this.  The tyres are Pacenti Paris-Moto in 38 section, light, supple and surprisingly quick (thank you fd3, they were definitely a good buy).

When you say a french-style bike, what exactly are you thinking of? There are french made randonneuses and then there are american ones and japanese ones. I don't think they necessarily all ride the same; the american ones are supposed to be more nervous with unloaded forks. The randonneuse conceived by the Confrérie du 650B is probably less nervous, certainly doesn't need to be loaded to handle ok (although all the "experts" say that a bit of weight in the paniers really sticks the front wheel to the road when descending and cornering). I find the chainstays of the Confrérie bike too short for my liking (and my mate Christian, whose opinion I appreciate a lot, had his frame built with stays 15mm longer to reduce the nervousness and improve the comfort).

[morbihan]

We are currently riding our modern Rando bikes over here in Brittany.
Lots of trucking on the chemin/ribinou/gravel/farm track. The forks are not low trail, modern carbon rodeo sporks.
Relaxed geometry. 650b wheels, 48mm. I can't say enough positive things about them. It's like they ride themselves.
The one complaint is that they are so comfortable that I'm worried about falling asleep on a long ride.
The one issue with my set up. (large Rando bag and aero bars) is that I have to be wary with that higher up weight of the bars turning when putting the bike against a wall etc when leaving it for break. It's not noticeable when riding though.
Im heading down to the Pyrenees next week for a few days in the mountains for a more thorough shakedown. Looking mainly to do gravel trails.
We went with silent pawl hubs too. Nothing but the sounds of birdsong and the hushed crushed gravel as you roll along.

[nashd]

Thanks for all that! Some interesting suggestions, including converting an old road frame to 650B, and going tubeless. I have tried tubeless on a recumbent, and it was comfy, but that particular setup made me uneasy about tyre security, plus the sealant could be messy!

I'd actually got in touch with Richard Hallett as I saw he made that style of bike.  It's early days, and I don't have enough idea of what I want, but as you say, it appears there are bikes which look vaguely similar but which have different geometry and handling characteristics.  I think Richard mentioned that his variant has handling more similar to a regular audax bike, and can accommodate both rear and front loads.  He suggested that traditional French bikes could be more prone to understeer. 

It looks like modern Rene Herses are available, at a cost, then there are makers such as Gilles Berthoud - again, probably very expensive.

I've seen a few videos from a guy who owns one made by a small-town American builder.  His bike looks great, and he mentions it having lightweight tubing.  The fork blades have that pronounced curve, and he also mentioned them having quite a lot of flex, adding comfort, but not at the expense of tracking and stability. I suppose other bikes can cover similar territory, but it seems to be a bike which rolls well with its wide supple tyres, is comfortable, relatively light, and able to carry a fairly substantial front load.  It's the sort of bike I could use for everything from short utiilty rides to audaxes, and all year round, too.

I'm not particularly enthusiastic about buying a custom frame from the USA (I've had less than stellar experiences with guitars and another bike).  However, I suppose any custom frame is a risk, especially if it's of a design which is different to one's other bikes. It might be okay if it's someone who specialises in this type of build, and who has a good reputation.

 

[mzjo]

The Confrérie still have some frames (built by Cyfac) and are looking to build them up to test the water a bit about restarting production. Price about 3000€. The positives: geometry based on the historic geometry of Rene Herse and Alex Singer (but without the clearance for a 38mm tyre - something the Bosc brothers wanted but were outvoted by the commitee - and with the chainstays a bit short), bike very completely equipped (except the rack options, which will depend a bit on price and availability). The big negative: you get little choice of what you're getting, you have to adopt the Confrérie philosophy entirely, almost evangelistically, I personally would prefer a modern 1 1/8" fork steerer and stem (just a bit more rigid I feel), built around the 32mm Confrérie tyre made by Hutchinson.

I think Berthoud is preferring disc brakes for a randonneuse these days and expect it to be relatively expensive.

There are a number of smaller french builders who would listen to you, build something very nice and not be outrageously expensive. Think Victoire but they are not the only ones. I will post a few names if I can get round to finding them (browsing back issues of the 200 may be required).

There are probably builders in UK who would do the same at least as well!

[morbihan]

plus one for Victoire.
Take a look at Jolie Rouge too.
Concourse de machines would be a good place have a nose about.

[iandusud]

Richard Hallett will build a 'French-style' 650B bike.  He'll discuss the geometry with you and probably let you try one or two bikes.
Mine's the black one here http://www.halletthandbuiltcycles.com/650-adventure.html
It now sports a front carrier as seen in one of the other pics, but it doesn't need any front load to handle well.

Nice bike. What is the availability of 650B rims that accept rim brakes? Lots of them for disc brakes but it would appear not a lot for rims brakes. Is this likely to become a problem and therefore would disc brakes be wise option for such a bike? Personally I think it would be a shame. Nothing wrong with good rim brakes for such a bike and of course it means a lighter more comfortable fork.

[psyclist]

What is the availability of 650B rims that accept rim brakes?

This list was compiled 5 years ago. I know the HED Belgium Plus is still available for rim brakes. Probably most of the others too, but haven't checked.

http://thebicyclewizards.com/index.php/2016/11/23/650b-rimz/

[Cudzoziemiec]

Surely if you're using disc brakes, it's the hubs that need to be disc-compatible? You can use disc brakes with rims that have or do not have a braking track. Being rim-agnostic is one of the advantages of disc brakes.

[iandusud]

Surely if you're using disc brakes, it's the hubs that need to be disc-compatible? You can use disc brakes with rims that have or do not have a braking track. Being rim-agnostic is one of the advantages of disc brakes.

You are correct however my point is that if rims without a braking track become scarce then disc brakes may become the only viable option. Hopefully this will not be the case.

[Zed43]

Spa has Kinlin XR31 650b for rim brakes. Doesn't say on the page, but when pressed (truly, communication was difficult) they confirmed these were for rim brakes and in stock (32 spoke version only). Mind you, these are black and 31mm high, so rather contemporary instead of classic. Excellent rims btw, I've build four 700C wheels (both disc and rim brake version) with them.

[iandusud]

What is the availability of 650B rims that accept rim brakes?

This list was compiled 5 years ago. I know the HED Belgium Plus is still available for rim brakes. Probably most of the others too, but haven't checked.

http://thebicyclewizards.com/index.php/2016/11/23/650b-rimz/

Thank you. The situation is healthier than I had been led to believe. However as 650B has become very popular with MTBs which are almost exclusively fitted with disc brakes the options may become more limited unless those of us who prefer rim brakes create enough demand.

Now who can supply a 40 hole 650B rim, preferably with a braking track, for tandem use?

[Tommyp27]

I've messed around with 650b enough to know it's where I'd like to go in the end.

Mostly on a Surly Midnight Special, but that was disc, which personally I wouldn't want. Also a Soma Grand Randonneur. I've ridden a few of the older bikes too. One that I wanted to buy so badly but was obviously too big. An off the peg frame from Soma or Surly, is about £750- 850, so I'd personally keep saving and go custom. I'm not a regular size though.

It sounds like Richard Hallet is building his 650b with a medium, rather than low trail, which to me kind of misses the point. Stanforth  bikes were making a 650b, with mid or low trail, but may have stopped, plus Lee Cooper make their bikes, so while plenty of customisesation is about, it's not the same as going to a frame builder.

I suppose part of it comes down to whether you want to run a front rack and bag and if you intend to do rough stuff on it? My Robert's (mid trail and 700c) always has it's handlebar bag on, to the point the handling takes a bit of adjusting to when it's off? The original style Randonneur seems to handle better with that front load, because that was part of it's design. I think they also suit my weird proportions.



Jon of http://www.chickensframeemporium.co.uk/ has some experience of building 650b Randonneurs. Also builds mountain bikes, so are probably built to last, but uses decent, lightweight tubing with it.