Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Racing => Topic started by: quixoticgeek on 18 February, 2019, 10:19:54 pm
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Sunday morning I was out on the Brompton, when a couple of roadies over took me. One caught my eye as he was wearing a Peter Sagan Bora Hansgrohe Rainbow jersey. I caught them up at the lights, and asked cheekily "Are you world champion?" "Working on it" was the reply.
I mentioned this on twitter, where it started a bit of a discussion. My thinking was that wearing a jersey with the rainbow stripes on is something you earn, and unless you are world champion, shouldn't be wearing it. But twitter seemed to think it was no different from wearing a man u football shirt. I tried to explain that it would be, were it not that only 1 person in the pro peloton can wear the rainbow jersey (or national champ equivalent), and that the jersey is a bit like an Olympic gold medal.
Am I being a grumpy curmudgeon, or should the rainbow jersey (and national champ equivalent) be reserved for the genuine holder of the title(s), as per the UCI regs?
J
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I think it is like Man U shirts: Only Man U are allowed to wear them during Premier League football matches. The rest of the time, people can wear what they like, and other people can have opinions about it if they like. It's not like you're realistically going to stop them.
See discussion passim about PBP (or equivalent) jerseys.
The difference between that and an olympic medal, is that your random roadie presumably wasn't wearing the genuine article.
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Wearing a trade team jersey would be the equivalent of wearing a footfball shirt, but only the current world champion should be wearing a rainbow jersey.
I don't even agree with former world champions being allowed to have rainbow trim on their jerseys.
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I wear rainbow trim black merino socks, fight me YACF.
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It is always fun looking down your nose at other people's choice of 'whatever'.
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I wear rainbow trim black merino socks, fight me YACF.
I accept your challenge, my chosen weapon is jelly wrestling!
J
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You are being grumpy, you don't earn them you buy them, and besides he was not wearing the rainbow jersey (though even that exists in plural).
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Wearing a trade team jersey would be the equivalent of wearing a footfball shirt, but only the current world champion should be wearing a rainbow jersey.
Exactly, that was my thinking.
J
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You are being grumpy, you don't earn them you buy them, and besides he was not wearing the rainbow jersey (though even that exists in plural).
Peter Sagan bought his? He didn't earn the right to wear it?
J
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Definitely football shirts. A token of support at most. If not, why would they be commercially available? I used to have (before it got stolen >:() a Merida mtb. At some point, Merida had sponsored someone – I don't even know who – who had been world champ of some form of mtbing, so the bike had rainbow stripes (including the saddle, which greatly delighted Nye when he saw it). I'm pretty sure it wasn't even the same model that the world champ rode. Anyone who mistook me for a world champ of anything (except, possibly, tea drinking or getting up very late) would have to be wilfully curmudgeonising.
PBP jerseys and shirts of smaller (non-pro) football clubs are different. They do show a level of commitment and involvement. You don't wear a Bristol South jersey or an Easton Cowboys shirt for chanting on the terraces or posing at the cafe, it does imply membership.
See also: wearing a Motorhead/One Direction/etc t-shirt when you're not with the band.
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Bikes with rainbow trim because a world's was won on a bike with the same brand name goes back a long way. That is completely different compared to some random person wearing THE Rainbow Jersey.
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The rainbow jersey or a rainbow jersey?
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Just remembered that when I was about 18 I had some mitts with world champ stripes. I bought them because they were pretty, they fitted and I could afford them. I don't think I was even aware the stripes signified anything.
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Just remembered that when I was about 18 I had some mitts with world champ stripes. I bought them because they were pretty, they fitted and I could afford them. I don't think I was even aware the stripes signified anything.
Hang on, I've got some 3/4s with rainbow stripes at the cuffs. Does this mean they signify something other than "hahaha, we've changed all our designs again"?
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Just remembered that when I was about 18 I had some mitts with world champ stripes. I bought them because they were pretty, they fitted and I could afford them. I don't think I was even aware the stripes signified anything.
Hang on, I've got some 3/4s with rainbow stripes at the cuffs. Does this mean they signify something other than "hahaha, we've changed all our designs again"?
As it's you, I'd first check what sort of rainbow. But somewhere I have some York plussy things which, I think, also have rainbow stripes on the cuffs, though I've an idea they might be neither of those sorts of rainbow. I'll check in a min.
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Meanwhile elsewhere in the tortured world of cycle clothing: https://road.cc/content/forum/249503-kom-raid-clothes-adverts-full-cheese
I haven't seen these ones or their adverts.
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Definitely football shirts. A token of support at most. If not, why would they be commercially available? I used to have (before it got stolen >:() a Merida mtb. At some point, Merida had sponsored someone – I don't even know who – who had been world champ of some form of mtbing, so the bike had rainbow stripes (including the saddle, which greatly delighted Nye when he saw it). I'm pretty sure it wasn't even the same model that the world champ rode. Anyone who mistook me for a world champ of anything (except, possibly, tea drinking or getting up very late) would have to be wilfully curmudgeonising.
Gunn-Rita Dahle Flesjå I presume. She was world champion umpteen times, usually riding a Merida.
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Definitely football shirts. A token of support at most. If not, why would they be commercially available? I used to have (before it got stolen >:() a Merida mtb. At some point, Merida had sponsored someone – I don't even know who – who had been world champ of some form of mtbing, so the bike had rainbow stripes (including the saddle, which greatly delighted Nye when he saw it). I'm pretty sure it wasn't even the same model that the world champ rode. Anyone who mistook me for a world champ of anything (except, possibly, tea drinking or getting up very late) would have to be wilfully curmudgeonising.
Gunn-Rita Dahle Flesjå I presume. She was world champion umpteen times, usually riding a Merida.
I always knew I was a Viking woman in another life. Admittedly I thought it was probably Frida from Abba, but still, that's close.
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I once got berated for wearing a green yacf jersey whilst riding laps of Richmond Park...
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It is always fun looking down your nose at other people's choice of 'whatever'.
One of life's simple - and tax-free - pleasures :)
@QG: have you asked the manufacturers? Or the people who sponsor Sagan?
(Do you think they are so stupid that they believe all the shirts leaving the factory are for Sagan's back?)
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I have a couple of LEL red T-shirts, fom being a volunteer at St Ives last time. I assume I'm entitled to wear those even though I didn't ride it?
I have carefully explained to a few locals who are in the know, that no, I didn't ride it, maybe next time - so no claims of false advertising
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I entirely agre that national or world jerseys should only be worn by legitimate winners.
Unfortunately, the UCI generate income by endorsing the selling of replicas.
I know a couple of ex world champions, one in particular is very upset when he sees people wearing the jerseys who haven’t won them. He finds it incredibly disrespectful, and I see his point.
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Football and other sports take it a step further; you wear a shirt not just proclaiming that you are a member of the Manchester Utd first team but that you are in fact Romelu Lukaku or Jesse Lingard! You wouldn't believe the number of people who stop me for signatures or a quick demonstration of 101 keepy-uppies when I'm wearing my Pogba shirt!
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So by that logic, when I wore my 1997 Lions shirt to SA to go and see them for a couple of matches, was I claiming to be a member of the squad? Should I stop wearing my Bath rugby shirt?
Perhaps the ex-world-champ could change his mindset and take it as a mark of respect that people want to be associated with his achievements, in however small a fashion? I'm not sure from this that any of these people are claiming the"right" to wear the jersey as an actual world champ?
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I have a Exmoor Ironman European Team running shirt, which I always feel awkward about wearing. Not only have I never done triathlon of any description and certainly not an ironman, I also had nothing to do with this particular event. It was given to me by the un-athletic daughter of a friend. She'd been a volunteer at the race and had been given the shirt as a souvenir. I'm not going to throw it away, but I am careful about when and where I use it.
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It is always fun looking down your nose at other people's choice of 'whatever'.
One of life's simple - and tax-free - pleasures :)
@QG: have you asked the manufacturers? Or the people who sponsor Sagan?
(Do you think they are so stupid that they believe all the shirts leaving the factory are for Sagan's back?)
And presumably they know that Sagan isn't world champion any more ?
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Football and other sports take it a step further; you wear a shirt not just proclaiming that you are a member of the Manchester Utd first team but that you are in fact Romelu Lukaku or Jesse Lingard! You wouldn't believe the number of people who stop me for signatures or a quick demonstration of 101 keepy-uppies when I'm wearing my Pogba shirt!
Imagine how suprised they are when I sign Gunn-Rita Dahle Flesjå!
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It is always fun looking down your nose at other people's choice of 'whatever'.
One of life's simple - and tax-free - pleasures :)
@QG: have you asked the manufacturers? Or the people who sponsor Sagan?
(Do you think they are so stupid that they believe all the shirts leaving the factory are for Sagan's back?)
And presumably they know that Sagan isn't world champion any more ?
Ssssshhhh - they won't sell half as many if people are thinking of Valverde!
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It is always fun looking down your nose at other people's choice of 'whatever'.
One of life's simple - and tax-free - pleasures :)
@QG: have you asked the manufacturers? Or the people who sponsor Sagan?
(Do you think they are so stupid that they believe all the shirts leaving the factory are for Sagan's back?)
And presumably they know that Sagan isn't world champion any more ?
Ssssshhhh - they won't sell half as many if people are thinking of Valverde!
Oh you edited that !
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Yeah - just old man's memory. And it didn't seem funny, nor any sort of Freudian slip. May I rot in hell for covering my mistakes!
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http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/
Rule 16. Simples.
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the observation about the Rainbow jersey was met with some anger/invective by a rider on my commute - so much so he chose to mention it when he passed me a few nights later. Now when I say passed me, this involves going full bore to get ahead then slowing down to allow me to sit on his wheel until the traffic lights and/or queuing traffic where he takes matters and his life into his own hands!
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I think the OP is being a typical stuck-up cycling snob. It obviously matters to you what people
wear when they're out on their bikes. That's very sad and you should try work yourself out of that
patronising attitude. ::-)
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I thought we had got over the Velominati nonsense. I agree with De Sisti when he refers to cycling snobs. Surely all that matters is that people are on their bikes. I really don't care what they are wearing or that they have their glasses outside their helmet straps.
Oh and I use a saddle bag. It's convenient and stops unsightly bulges in my merino jersey. I've got this one - it's lovely: -
https://www.juracycleclothing.co.uk/long-sleeve-cycling-jersey/Rainbow-merino-cycling-jersey
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I think De Sisti is possibly being a bit harsh on the OP. Nevertheless, Velominati – clearly nonsense, which some people treat as a joke and some unfortunately take seriously. How its originators meant it, I don't know.
Saddle bags are very convenient and that jersey is lovely. Shame it only has one pocket but I love that it's described as "Performance sportswear for cycling, skiing, golf, riding, hiking". Which reminds me, at the weekend I saw two blokes walk up my street wearing football shirts and shorts, bouncing a ball and covered in mud. But underneath his shorts one of them was wearing Rapha tights! :thumbsup:
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i am puzzled why the world champion stripes are being referred as "rainbow". rainbow has seven (simplified) colours and quite different from the world champion stripe colours, which are the same as olympic rings colours. is it popular to refer to olympic rings as "rainbow rings"?
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http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/
Rule 16. Simples.
You see I look at "the rules" from Velominati, and just see gatekeeping bollocks. The sort of judgemental sneering used by existing riders to look down on newbies. I don't know if they were started as a joke that has been massively misconstrued or if the creators are serious, but either way, people use them for gatekeeping, and I *REALLY* fucking hate gatekeeping.
I think the OP is being a typical stuck-up cycling snob. It obviously matters to you what people
wear when they're out on their bikes. That's very sad and you should try work yourself out of that
patronising attitude. ::-)
I think you massively misunderstand who I am, and what I believe. I believe everyone should be able to cycle, that it doesn't matter what a person wears, that we should be working to improve things for all people on bikes, regardless of background, skill level, race, gender, sexuality, etc... I really fucking hate gatekeeping. If you read many of my posts on this forum you will see that I am angry at the cycle industry for the failure to adequately cater for people who are not Chris Froome, who are not able to get on a bike and spin up a hill with a 53/39, and a 11-28. If you read my blog linked in my signature, you'll see a recent post about the situation with local bike shops and how they can be unwelcoming to minorities. So no, I don't have a fucking patronising attitude, and I find it an insult that you suggest I do.
I started this thread as I was trying to get my head round a contradiction. I really hate it when people judge others for what they wear. "Her skirt was how short?" "Why wasn't she wearing a helmet and hivi?", especially as it is targeted largely at women. This point is made quite nicely by the Australian tv presenter who wore the same suit for months on end, when his female colleague had to wear a different outfit every day. With these values, I an presented with the contradiction, don't judge people on what they wear, however this one item, the rainbow jersey, is an item that you earn the right to wear, that only a small number of people ever earn the right to wear. It is the equivalent of a gold medal from the Olympics. As such, given this, is it right that someone just buys a copy and wears it?
How would people feel if I bought a copy of an Olympic road race gold medal, and cycled round wearing it?
I thought we had got over the Velominati nonsense. I agree with De Sisti when he refers to cycling snobs. Surely all that matters is that people are on their bikes. I really don't care what they are wearing or that they have their glasses outside their helmet straps.
Oh and I use a saddle bag. It's convenient and stops unsightly bulges in my merino jersey. I've got this one - it's lovely: -
https://www.juracycleclothing.co.uk/long-sleeve-cycling-jersey/Rainbow-merino-cycling-jersey
Quite, glasses outside helmet straps just seems like a good way of breaking ones glasses...
Saddlebags are great, mine is 16l, carries all my fears, and doubles as a bit of a mudguard. I also have a frame bag, top tube bag, and 3 feed pouches on the handlebars...
I am not a cycling snob.
I think De Sisti is possibly being a bit harsh on the OP. Nevertheless, Velominati – clearly nonsense, which some people treat as a joke and some unfortunately take seriously. How its originators meant it, I don't know.
Agreed on both points.
Saddle bags are very convenient and that jersey is lovely. Shame it only has one pocket but I love that it's described as "Performance sportswear for cycling, skiing, golf, riding, hiking". Which reminds me, at the weekend I saw two blokes walk up my street wearing football shirts and shorts, bouncing a ball and covered in mud. But underneath his shorts one of them was wearing Rapha tights! :thumbsup:
So the rainbow jersey that is linked doesn't meet the design requirements of the UCI, it's a jersey with a rainbow on it, rather than the rainbow jersey, so to my eye it's not one you earn. To continue to butcher the analogy, it's a medal, but it's not an Olympic medal...
i am puzzled why the world champion stripes are being referred as "rainbow". rainbow has seven (simplified) colours and quite different from the world champion stripe colours, which are the same as olympic rings colours. is it popular to refer to olympic rings as "rainbow rings"?
When Isaac Newton first described the rainbow, and did his experiments with prisms and light scattering, he identified 5 colours to the rainbow. The common stylised rainbow has 7 colours, but as depicted in many cases, the rainbow as drawn does not match the same colour order as an actual rainbow. This is common in many depictions for aesthetic reasons, ever noticed that a pride flag has 6 colours?
J
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i am puzzled why the world champion stripes are being referred as "rainbow". rainbow has seven (simplified) colours and quite different from the world champion stripe colours, which are the same as olympic rings colours. is it popular to refer to olympic rings as "rainbow rings"?
Yeah, it's not technically correct. However I have followed the sport for 30+ years and it's always been referred to as 'the rainbow jersey'.
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If you read many of my posts on this forum you will see that I am angry at the cycle industry for the failure to adequately cater for people who are not Chris Froome, who are not able to get on a bike and spin up a hill with a 53/39, and a 11-28.
My first 'serious' bike purchase was a Raleigh Record Ace, which was a sort of fast-tourer, so came with a 42/52, and a six speed block from 14 to 28.
If you want to 'earn' a jersey, the most accessible route is probably via the World Ultra Cycling Association. They've got lots of divisions, and their jerseys are 'one of a kind'. The downside is that very few people are interested in WUCA, so there'd be a lot of explaining to do. If you have to explain why something is prestigious, then it's not prestigious.
(https://worldultracycling.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/jersey1.jpg)
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12 hour National Champion.... with Olympic rings? Airs and graces comes to mind.
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People do get confused about the status of various titles. I've seen references to riders challenging the world record for LEJOG. I suppose we can blame Guinness for that.
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People do get confused about the status of various titles. I've seen references to riders challenging the world record for LEJOG. I suppose we can blame Guinness for that.
Not helped by things like the baseball world series...
J
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Which series carefully excludes Cuba, so that the winner can be an American team (usually full of Cubans).
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Just popping into this thread to say that every time it appears on my unread posts list, I read it as Eating a Jersey.
Sorry.
Carry on.
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Which series carefully excludes Cuba, so that the winner can be an American team (usually full of Cubans).
The Toronto Blue Jays have won it twice. Montréal also had a MLB team for a while, until they moved somewhere warmer.
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How would people feel if I bought a copy of an Olympic road race gold medal, and cycled round wearing it?
We'd probably think you were a hip-hopist, unless we looked closely.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-PYEONGCHANG-KOREA-WINTER-OLYMPIC-WINNER-REPLICA-MEDAL-GOLD-SILVER-BRONZE-/323032555956
Just popping into this thread to say that every time it appears on my unread posts list, I read it as Eating a Jersey.
Sorry.
Carry on.
This conversation is strictly for the moths.
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@ Larrers
OK - American-ish!
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With these values, I an presented with the contradiction, don't judge people on what they wear, however this one item, the rainbow jersey, is an item that you earn the right to wear, that only a small number of people ever earn the right to wear. It is the equivalent of a gold medal from the Olympics. As such, given this, is it right that someone just buys a copy and wears it?
How would people feel if I bought a copy of an Olympic road race gold medal, and cycled round wearing it?
I would feel that was quite odd, but I don't see how you're harming anyone. So pffft, really.
I think you either
- admit to cognitive dissonance (which may be hard if you think of yourself as logical, rational and intelligent), or
- realise you are worrying about something that in no way affects the real world in any significant way. A bit like the grammar pedants whom we all know and love. It is normal to have these minor concerns - the trick is to not let them take over your life.
(oh woe is me, the whole world thinks disc brakes are a class better than rim brakes, for all types of riding - godammit, they're all wrong, why can't they see sense?!? I shall dedicate my life to knocking their heads together, no matter the personal cost/stress !!! )
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What about earning one of these rainbow jerseys? 🌈
(http://i.imgur.com/hPeMfBp.jpg)
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(oh woe is me, the whole world thinks disc brakes are a class better than rim brakes, for all types of riding - godammit, they're all wrong, why can't they see sense?!? I shall dedicate my life to knocking their heads together, no matter the personal cost/stress !!! )
Cry hammock! And let slip the discs of war. More power to your elbow.
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How would people feel if I bought a copy of an Olympic road race gold medal, and cycled round wearing it?
It would matter not one jot.
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I'd still point and laugh though...
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I think you either
- admit to cognitive dissonance (which may be hard if you think of yourself as logical, rational and intelligent), or
- realise you are worrying about something that in no way affects the real world in any significant way. A bit like the grammar pedants whom we all know and love. It is normal to have these minor concerns - the trick is to not let them take over your life.
You can never be sure if people mean cognitive dissonance, or confirmation bias, or even motivated reasoning.
People don’t change their minds – just the opposite in fact. Brains are designed to filter the world so we don’t have to question it. While this helps us survive, it’s a subjective trap; by only seeing the world as we want to, our minds narrow and it becomes difficult to understand opposing opinions. When we only look for what confirms our beliefs (confirmation bias), only side with what is most comfortable (cognitive dissonance) and don’t scrutinise contrary ideas (motivated reasoning) we impede social, economic, and academic progress.
https://whywereason.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/psychologys-treacherous-trio-confirmation-bias-cognitive-dissonance-and-motivated-reasoning/
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(oh woe is me, the whole world thinks disc brakes are a class better than rim brakes, for all types of riding - godammit, they're all wrong, why can't they see sense?!? I shall dedicate my life to knocking their heads together, no matter the personal cost/stress !!! )
Cry hammock! And let slip the discs of war. More power to your elbow.
I think that should be "more power to your painkillers"! I never noticed much more power to anywhere (except those zones of the brain dealing with nasty sensations) when the discs slipped!
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Surely the issue with the rainbow jersey is the context. On a commute the jersey is acceptable as it is not the official commuter world champion jersey, so is the equivalent of playing football down the park in a man-u t-shirt. If, however, the same cyclist were to show up to a race in the world champion jersey it would be an issue (in the same way as showing up to play in a football league match wearing the kit from another club would be an issue). Said cyclist could be excused if they were wearing the MTB world champion jersey (for example) at a road race, though then they might have other sartorial questions to answer.
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Would the inverse be true too, is Kim no longer allowed to ride her recumbent without wearing her rainbow jersey?
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The rainbow jersey is earned and should only be worn by the current world champion in that discipline. The same with National Champion jerseys and similar. It’s disrespectful to the rightful wearer if the wrong person wears it.
Giropaul Ph D, MRCVS, CBE, DSM and lots of other things I’ve never earns or am entitled to use.
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Would the inverse be true too, is Kim no longer allowed to ride her recumbent without wearing her rainbow jersey?
I thought Kim was 2nd in the world, not 1st? Perhaps she should be compelled to wear her silver medal whenever on her recumbent.
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A mate of mine drives a replica Colin Mcrae Subaru. Is it disrespectful to a dead rally champion because although he's a rally driver by hobby he's never going to drive in the world championship or, is it a tribute?
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A mate of mine drives a replica Colin Mcrae Subaru. Is it disrespectful to a dead rally champion because although he's a rally driver by hobby he's never going to drive in the world championship or, is it a tribute?
Depends. Is the Subaru that Colin drove awarded as a prize for winning something?
The Rainbow Jersey is part of your prize, if you win the world championship. If your friend was driving round with a replica World Rally Championship Trophy on the dash board, would that be ok ?
J
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Surely the issue with the rainbow jersey is the context. On a commute the jersey is acceptable as it is not the official commuter world champion jersey, so is the equivalent of playing football down the park in a man-u t-shirt. If, however, the same cyclist were to show up to a race in the world champion jersey it would be an issue (in the same way as showing up to play in a football league match wearing the kit from another club would be an issue).
Exactly!
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Would the inverse be true too, is Kim no longer allowed to ride her recumbent without wearing her rainbow jersey?
No, because the rainbow jersey is only awarded to UCI World Champions, and we all know what the UCI thinks of recumbentistas. And vice-versa :demon: Though by some twist of club and federation affiliation that I don't quite fully grok, an HPV World Champ who wins the title at an event run by HPV Belgium is entitled to a rainbow jersey.
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If, however, the same cyclist were to show up to a race in the world champion jersey it would be an issue (in the same way as showing up to play in a football league match wearing the kit from another club would be an issue). Said cyclist could be excused if they were wearing the MTB world champion jersey (for example) at a road race, though then they might have other sartorial questions to answer.
I don't think your last point (highlighted) is true - not least because a) the design of world champion jerseys is fundamentally the same across all cycling disciplines (or at least those under the UCI's remit, pace Mr L) so the MTB world champions' jerseys look much the same as the road and track world champions' jerseys, and b) there are strict rules about displaying sponsors' names in races.*
Outside of races, wear what you like. I generally prefer not to wear trade team kit myself, but that's an entirely personal choice. I certainly wouldn't show outward scorn to any rider who turns up to a club ride, audax or sportive in FKW Sky fanboi mode.
*ETA: I just checked this and in fact the rules on advertising aren't quite as strict as I thought:
8.1.9 In Road and Track events, Youth, Fourth and Provisional category licence holders and BC non licence holders will be allowed to wear any suitable clothing whilst competing in events under the Technical Regulations of the Federation, including that bearing registered or unregistered advertising except in the case of National Championships when they must comply with T.R. 8.1.1 to 8.1.6. However protective headgear must be worn in accordance with T.R. 8.6.
However, the rules on national and world stripes are very strict:
8.3 Representative & Championship Jerseys
8.3.1 Riders may wear the National representative jersey only when competing as members of a team selected by the Board to represent Great Britain or England as the case may be.
8.3.2 Only the current holder of a World, National or Region Championship shall wear the jersey appropriate to those Championships and then only when competing in the type of racing at which he is Champion
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/bc_files/rulebook/2018/british-cycling-handbook-2019.pdf
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Though by some twist of club and federation affiliation that I don't quite fully grok, an HPV World Champ who wins the title at an event run by HPV Belgium is entitled to a rainbow jersey.
Because Belgium is more bike than the UCI?