GPS for PERMS

[3peaker]

I am either blind or there is not one (a Thread-see Title)!  As a Perm and Calendar Organiser, I love my routes and want to share them with the Audax community.  I took to gps a year or 2 back and have found the Garmin 705 an excellent tool to tell me where I have been (Abysmal mapping though, so do not trust it as a where-to-go or take-me-there Tool).  And then, I discovered that if I set a lap at every Turn, I had a fairly accurate distance between Instructions and this gave me the opportunity to provide this data on my Routesheets.  So gradually, as I re-ride my routes, I am updating to provide m(etres) or kms after each instruction (e.g., SO @ X $ Cheltenham     3.56km).

Of course, I have some long routes and I will find it a beyond-gps task to provide this detail above 300km – dark, out-of-life battery and fiddly on-board charging, so, with the detail of full GB Digi OS Memory Map at 1:50,000, I can measure distance with a ruler or plot the route and read off.  A good winter project?

What I am working to is accepting gps-tracks as (back-up) proof-of-passage to accompany the Brevet Card. Tracks can be emailed ahead of the post and it gives me a clear picture (on my OS mapping) of the route taken. This is a valuable feature where riders are claiming AAA points where Info Controls may be the key to the route and honesty is the Order-of-the-Day; trusting where riders have ridden the route before; my Cotswold Corker (a fine all year Route) is particularly popular with one local (Mrs BS) having ridden x7 in 2010!  It does mean more effort for the Organiser.  So, while I trust ATMs and till receipts, gps does have a place in Perm Validation.  Another useful trend is to provide my track to future entries – you need only ask.
With the advent of both DIY and gps, I have found a drop in up-take of my Perms.

What do Organisers think?

What do Riders think?

What do Validators think?

SteveP

[PloddinPedro]

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking Steve, but I'd say that using GPS as proof of passage is a genie that's well out of the bottle. And a fine thing it is too, in my view; I know I've done a lot more riding as a consequence of being able to avoid the hassle of paper routesheets and till receipts, etc.

It's true that a good deal of this extra riding has been on DIY rides but I've found myself far more willing to enter and travel to Calendar events if they are "GPS friendly" (i.e. either if organiser or other riders can provide a .gpx file) and also, as an aside, if they can be entered on-line, with PayPal.

If you're concerned that GPS will lead to a decline in participation in traditional Permanent rides, I think there is a good chance that it will. A typical GPS user tends to be keen on playing with it and when he/she discovers that rides can be invented and validated that run directly from his/her own house, the temptation to drive off somewhere distant, park up and  to get a till receipt from a garage or such and then drive home at the end of the ride fades.

However, the existance of a route already worked out and for which a .gpx track file is available offers a much more tempting alternative and my feeling is that, over time, Permanent organisers who move with the times and deliver GPS friendly events will enjoy greater rider participation.

[Jord]

Of course, I have some long routes and I will find it a beyond-gps task to provide this detail above 300km – dark, out-of-life battery and fiddly on-board charging,

Well beyond the 705 anyway plenty of other GPS devices would be fine 

[Phil21]

If you're concerned that GPS will lead to a decline in participation in traditional Permanent rides, I think there is a good chance that it will. A typical GPS user tends to be keen on playing with it and when he/she discovers that rides can be invented and validated that run directly from his/her own house, the temptation to drive off somewhere distant, park up and  to get a till receipt from a garage or such and then drive home at the end of the ride fades.

+1. I am thinking of getting a GPS for just this reason, to be able to create interesting routes (not shop bound) which go straight from my home.

However, the existance of a route already worked out and for which a .gpx track file is available offers a much more tempting alternative and my feeling is that, over time, Permanent organisers who move with the times and deliver GPS friendly events will enjoy greater rider participation.

Especially if you could join the route at any point...

[phil d]

There was a comment here recently (though I can't find it at the moment) that indicated that the permanent validator is happy with virtually any combination of on-line or paper entry, and GPS or receipts/stamps-in-cards verification.

[Jord]

I do not think I'd do many none GPS perms  - it is so much easier just to start from the house. I try and avoid using the car to ride my bike if I can.

[EdinburghFixed]

For what it's worth, my 705 managed the whole 620k of the Border Raid quite happily, with AA batteries.

[frankly frankie]

Of course, I have some long routes and I will find it a beyond-gps task to provide this detail above 300km – dark, out-of-life battery and fiddly on-board charging, so, with the detail of full GB Digi OS Memory Map at 1:50,000, I can measure distance with a ruler or plot the route and read off.  A good winter project?

Because, in Mem Map, you can only draw a track manually, then measure it - I would suggest a quicker and better tool for this job is Google Maps.
* right-click on the start of the leg and select 'Directions from here'
* set to Kms instead of the default miles
* right-click on the end of the leg and select 'Directions to here'
* drag the route to shape where necessary
* read off all the intermediate distances from the panel on the left.

[AndyH]

If I understand the original question - why not be able to validate perms by GPS, as for a DIY by GPS

Why not indeed ?

Edit - (nearly on topic). From the Garmin edge series you need to download the track into Training Centre then export it as a GPX. Also altitude can not be set, I usually get a slightly different altitude reading at the end of a ride compared to the begining.

Have the DIY by GPS orgs any experience of tracks from Edge devices?

[RichForrest]

If I understand the original question - why not be able to validate perms by GPS, as for a DIY by GPS

Why not indeed ?

Edit - (nearly on topic). From the Garmin edge series you need to download the track into Training Centre then export it as a GPX. Also altitude can not be set, I usually get a slightly different altitude reading at the end of a ride compared to the begining.

Have the DIY by GPS orgs any experience of tracks from Edge devices?

I've no idea what devices riders use apart from it being a gpx track.

Re the first Q? Why not send the GPS validation software to the perm organisers who want to use it. It would make life easier for them.

[Martin]

GPS DIY perms are well established; I've never heard of a GPS only or even GPS validated regular perm (although I'd like to set one up)

is this something that requires a rule change? if so can it be brought up at the AGM?

[MikeFromLFE]

I suspect that the way we are heading (and it may take some little time) is that the traditional perm's days are numbered, with DIY-by-GPS becoming the order of the day.
After all, [devils advocate] why bother with someone else's route, controls, etc. when you can devise your own far better route between the same two points and not bother with fixed controls 'cos you've got the GPS [/devils advocate].
Certainly if I was still chasing the Round-Britain-randonnee (I think it was called - various points on the coast back to home) I'd be doing these as DIY Perm's now. Hang on- that's not such a bad idea.....

[phil d]

I'm not sure that I agree, Milimole.  I still think there's a place for the traditional perm, with a well-rehearsed route.  I've done a few of these (two this year) when there hasn't been a calendar event suitable for my "needs", and I'm sure I shall do more of them. 

I see GPS validation as just a different way of proving passage.  While (AIUI) this has as yet generally been used for DIY perms, there is no reason, once the relevant organiser is suitably equipped, why any perm should not use GPS validation.

The use of GPS validation could actually allow the range of perms to be extended.  For instance, when I rode my Upper Thames in July to check the route, I did it as a GPS perm.  If we move this way, I could well see me supplying a route with map co-ordinates instead of infos, especially as the location of my infos (and the number, being more than 1) does not otherwise make the route easily perm-able.

The trouble is that this makes audax a two-tier system, with much of the membership excluded from events because they don't have a GPS.  We have to accept that many people don't want a GPS.  I'm not comfortable with them being excluded because of this.

[Manotea]

It does seem the tide of history is against the traditional perm and its variants (darts, etc.) and we are heading to a world where there are no 'perms' just 'tracks'.

I like riding established routes even if they are not always convenient to get to. For me, it's part of the shared experienced of Audax, the difference between a 'ride' and an 'event' which means that even when riding solo I'm not alone.

This all changes with the 'GPS perm' which I fear will squeeze the traditional perm and its varients out of existence, for who will the 'perm organisers' of the future be? Traditionally (that word again) Orgs have invested time and effort into nurturing routes which can be shared by all. Their reward? Well, it's not money so it must be something else. I'd reckon on it being a sense of participation and sharing with the riders they support.

All this is undermined by DIY GPS perms. With tracks for established route available online, riders will inevitably 'tweak' them to their own convenience and enter them as DIY Perms. Its simply easier and less hassle for all concerned. So on the one hand established perms will whither on the vine, and there is little incentive for new organisers to invest time and effort in developing new routes when its so much easier to simply post a track on Bikely.

It may be I'm being unduly pessimistic but it does seem we are looking at our very own Climate Change. The question is, is this a real problem and is it solveable? It's not something that has been discussed in open forum to-date (by which I mean within AUK) as far as I'm aware.

Edit: I've used a GPS for navigation for several years and ridden loads of DIY/DIY+CAL perms. I'm all in favour of such events. My concern is that the DIY GPS breaks the link between the rider and the Perm org. What price Perms, Darts, GPS Perms etc. when they can all be DIY GPS Perms?

[DrMekon]

I love the idea of DIY perms, and given I am short of time, someone else doing the GPX legwork for me would be a big plus. Indeed, the DIY by GPS I did was arranged entirely by simonp, and the GPX was to his usual standard. It was great.

[RichForrest]

The GPS is used instead of the receipt as a proof of passage through places.
Other perms could be ridden as DIY rides before GPS validation came about, I've used many roads on DIY rides that I've cycled along on calendar events.
If there were any perms near me I'd ride them but there isn't so I tend to do a lot of DIY ones.

The good thing about a DIY is you can get up on the day decide whether to ride or not. Then entering/riding and getting the track off to the organiser is very easy.

Maybe if Perms were allowed to be done the same way more people would ride them.
Maybe a link on the perm page for an online entry form (like the DIY perms) - Paypal entry which after send you a track automatically on payment.
I don't know if this could be done but I think it would get more riders doing them.

AUK is going more online now with paypal entry and emailing the routesheets afterwards for a lot more events.
It looks like it will get more riders involved and that can only be a good thing surely.

[MSeries]

Riding events with a GPS for proof of passage is welcome to me. But I choose routes and events for what htey are, not because I can have them validated by one means or another. It's about cycling after all. If I wanted an easy life I'd stay at home !! I do DIY perms, have done for years, even before GPSs were widespread. They are more convenient, especially now that I have a GPS and no motor transport, but I'll still do a proper perm if I can. Sure I could do a DIY version of Don Blacks most excellent routes, but why would I ? Dons routes are most excellent, the donkey work is done, already approved for distance and AAAs, why put that burden on to some else. If DOn was able to validate by GPS i'd use it but it makes no bearing on whether I choose to ride his routes or not. His routes are most excellent and thus worth riding.

[don black]

"The trouble is that this makes audax a two-tier system, with much of the membership excluded from events because they don't have a GPS.  We have to accept that many people don't want a GPS.  I'm not comfortable with them being excluded because of this."

 I've never used a GPS yet but I've used a GPS logger all this year. It cost about 50
notes, main challenge being  remembering to turn it on and off. Getting the logs off
the box does need easy access to an internet computer, as does email. I've only done one DIY with GPS validation, very pleasant with only food stops to consider.
For my own perms from Manchester I'd be happy to use GPS validation, Google
Streetview has cut deep into my existing list of info controls!
 Thinking longer term,  the  importance of permanents has been in providing good cycling routes that also allowed audax validation, we need to ensure these routes can be still be used by riders generating their own DIY rides.

Don Black.

[MSeries]

Fully agree with Don Black, can't let it become a two tier system, we must still have route sheets and paper based validations. A  track is available for my perm and if I was allowed to I'd validate a track for it.

[Philip Whiteman]

As the organiser for the Montgomery Madness, I see absolutely no problem with the proposal.  I suppose it just requires AUK to approve the idea and for Perms Sec, John Ward, to agree.

Don't agree with exclusionary comments.  I would be happy to receive either paper based of GPX forms of evidence.   will still continue to supply paper suggested route cards and downloads for all entrants.  Neither group is advantaged or disadvantaged, neither will make the rides any easier!

[3peaker]

Great to hear a few thoughts.  Here is one to set you thinking.

I rode my Gospel Pass 200 Perm (Sat 6 Nov) (that's No 12 for my first AAARTY) and was using my gps trying to follow a track I had loaded.  Track did not read right but that did not matter as I happen to have ridden the GP Perm several times this year.  Here comes the point.  Whilst descending to Monmouth the screen went blank, uncommanded switch off!  Restarted and forgot to press start for 25km; OK, still no problem, as I could explain the resulting download.  On downloading to Training Centre, none of my ride appeared. Explain that to the Validator!  No problem for me, as I recorded normal paper and stamps (especially at Llanthony Half Moon , where they have a Sustrans stamp for Anglesey - Cardiff), and a few photos where I use infos.

As Organiser, I do not think I would look kindly to an excuse of the gps Track having been lost, if NO other evidence of the ride was available. Just a warning.

SteveP

[YahudaMoon]

Im with Mr Don Black. Well said Don.

[mikewigley]

I would be happy to receive either paper based of GPX forms of evidence

The problem here is when riders send a GPX file to another organiser who doesn't accept it.  I had one rider who couldn't find an info, but he said there was no problem as he was able to send me his GPX file instead.  I've no idea where he's been and at what time!

Actually this shows up both the advantage and disadvantage of GPS!

At the moment I can validate a Perm or Calendar brevet card in seconds, just by checking that all the boxes are completed.  So how do I validate a GPX file?

[Hot Flatus]

Steve, as an aside, if you are dissatisfied with your 705's mapping ability, then I suspect you may  not be doing it correctly, it is the best out there.  Make sure you have Garmin maps on the as card (ie don't rely on the basemap), use bikehike to plot a route and download it as a gpxx route, not gpx or track. Set the map scroll to 'track up', and what you have is the same as a car sat-nav. I find it faultless.

[teethgrinder]

And a fine thing it is too, in my view; I know I've done a lot more riding as a consequence of being able to avoid the hassle of paper routesheets and till receipts, etc.

For that reason alone, I say it's a very good thing.

It does seem the tide of history is against the traditional perm and its variants (darts, etc.) and we are heading to a world where there are no 'perms' just 'tracks'.

I like riding established routes even if they are not always convenient to get to. For me, it's part of the shared experienced of Audax, the difference between a 'ride' and an 'event' which means that even when riding solo I'm not alone.

This all changes with the 'GPS perm' which I fear will squeeze the traditional perm and its varients out of existence, for who will the 'perm organisers' of the future be? Traditionally (that word again) Orgs have invested time and effort into nurturing routes which can be shared by all. Their reward? Well, it's not money so it must be something else. I'd reckon on it being a sense of participation and sharing with the riders they support.

All this is undermined by DIY GPS perms. With tracks for established route available online, riders will inevitably 'tweak' them to their own convenience and enter them as DIY Perms. Its simply easier and less hassle for all concerned. So on the one hand established perms will whither on the vine, and there is little incentive for new organisers to invest time and effort in developing new routes when its so much easier to simply post a track on Bikely.

It may be I'm being unduly pessimistic but it does seem we are looking at our very own Climate Change. The question is, is this a real problem and is it solveable? It's not something that has been discussed in open forum to-date (by which I mean within AUK) as far as I'm aware.

Edit: I've used a GPS for navigation for several years and ridden loads of DIY/DIY+CAL perms. I'm all in favour of such events. My concern is that the DIY GPS breaks the link between the rider and the Perm org. What price Perms, Darts, GPS Perms etc. when they can all be DIY GPS Perms?

I think that there will allways be "events" as long as people want to ride them. I have certainly taken advantage of starting a ride from home and I'd say that some of them would be classed as "events" by yourself, notably the Middle road. I have established a few 600k routes, and so has Rich Forrest. We tweak them a bit to try and improve them and having more flexibility to do so can only improve on a good ride.
GPS would be the only way to resuurect the 600k calendar event that I ran in 2003 because a cafe in the middle of nowhere has since shut. It was a popular ride, but because of the cafe closing, I can't even ride it as a DIY now, unless I can GPS validate it. I ended up with a new route for a DIY 600 as a result (hmmm, must go ride it sometime, haven't done that one for a while) which wasn't quite as good.

It also means that I am no longer restricted by what I have locally. I can start the Middle Road from home, but riding up and down the same roads does get tedious. Instead of not bothering to ride up "that" route again, I can go somewhere different which does mean that I ride more 600k events. I will still ride a traditional permanent, such as Porkers and Brimstone, because I know that they are worth the hassle of getting to and from.

Having GPS tracks which can be shared on line seems fantastic to me. Someone may do a good ride, write about it and inspire others to do the same route. It'd be very easy for them to download the GPS track.

I'm all for GPS, even though I don't have one. I don't feel excluded. I think they are a good tool to have and if it gets more people doing long distance cycling, then so much the better. After all, AUK's constitution is to encourage long distance cycling. It doesn't mean that it's all about riding events. Events are just a part of the bigger picture.