[LEL17] Managing the Lulls at Controls.

[Exit Stage Left]

I was mainly prompted into this line of thought by this interview with Anco de Jong. Obviously, I'm prompting Anco with what I've been told by other fast riders, but that's what experience is for.

[sizbut]

Just remember that rider times would likely fit some kind of distribution curve heavily weighted towards the cut off times. And a rider like Anco will be in the top 1% - all power to him but the system has to be optimised if it is optimised for the 90%.

If you have access to the data it might be very illuminating to take all the rider times, plot them onto a common finish and then see how that would have grouped the start times (All bearing in mind that the weather this year greatly skewed things). However, even if it shows some possible potential, to make any practical use of that in future you would need riders to have some accurate, and maybe even provable, idea of their probable times. Something which I understand LEL doesn't ask for. Also it would probably show that the start and early controls would have to be open longer even though later controls could open later and for shorter - basically just mirror imaging the current situation.

You'd also have to plan for weather events like this years suddenly throwing everything out. With the current model, at least a lot of out of time riders were able to still complete the course using the control services they had paid for. If it had been the otherway round, we would have taken their money and then shut-up shop whilst several hundred riders were still out of the road.

Alternately, you could take a punt and tell controls that for the expected first X 'elite' rider times they only need to be offering basic services (fruit, flapjack and water), but it will fail if you hit fast elite who planned on having a full meal at halfway because that's what was advertised as on offer so they planned for that and they paid the same as slower riders [remember that, riders have paid for the advertised services so they have a right to expect them to be available even if usually speedy Gonzales only wants an apple].

I could agree that the known elite riders shouldn't be in the first wave - Anco and ilk could have started as late as Tuesday. But I can bet that they wouldn't like it and they would also have to bite their tongues on arriving at controls to find a queue in front of them, even if just a few minutes, for check-in/check-out.

For the control I was at (Great Easton so very late in everything), a brave co-coordinator looking at the weather forecast could have said delay the setup and prep til Tuesday afternoon rather than Monday (and I could have stayed at home to dig up my potatoes), but it would have been a very brave call and wouldn't have saved any money as the venue booking had to be made months earlier.

Could we have coped with almost all the riders hitting us in the same 24-hours. Possibly, if we had known to plan for that since we did actually cope with the majority being weather bunched into a spike that arrived the same night.

[Peter]

Anco seems like a very nice bloke.  I liked the way he appreciated the efforts of people who take 4 or 5 days over the event.

[mmmmartin]

Anco seems like a very nice bloke. 

Agreed, I saw him at Moffat where he had half a cup of tea and half a piece of cake and chatted briefly, and saw him again at Loughton where he was loitering for a few days waiting for his drop bags, and chatting to people. Seemed a thoroughly decent bloke.

[Exit Stage Left]

Assuming that the controls are booked for the same periods, then moving the 'elite' group back, would free up time to be used as contingency, for weather and other factors. The detailed arrangement of that would take analysis of the finish times for those back before 75 hours.

I'm thinking that the sub-75 Hour group is small. They could use trackers for validation, so no need to visit controls unless they want to. Moto riders and other mobile elements could police the group for rule infringements. There's a loss in terms of volunteer contact with the front runners, but visits are fleeting.

Controls could have a big screen showing progress of the elites, and when they will pass the groups on the road. There's a misconception that the like of Anco ride fast. They just don't stop. A possibility is that the elite would be paced by groups of fast riders who sleep. That could be countered by a 'free-route' for the elite, so that the groups don't clash.

I'm not all that keen on an 'elite group' at all. I feel that it's a projection of the values from other types of endurance cycle sport. There was an influx of riders following Mike Hall's sad demise, as there was uncertainty about the future of his events. That enhanced the possibility of a raised profile for LEL.

In the end, a pure randonneur was fastest, so no change in the nature of Audax occurred. I've generally found that when riders with a deep competitive streak encounter Audax, it's they who change and not Audax. They're suddenly in a world where what they do is not some sort of freak-show, but a family affair.

As they progress around the course they get more and more worn down by offers of pasta, cake and tea. i call it the 'Mrs Doyle Effect'.

[hulver]

There's a misconception that the like of Anco ride fast. They just don't stop.

Jasmijn Muller's group got to Pocklington before the control officially opened. That's an average of >30kmph including the previous controls. You don't find many Audaxers with a moving average of 30kmph, let alone including stopping times.

[Cudzoziemiec]

What a strange thread.

It was only started for the lulz.

[Exit Stage Left]

30 kph equates to 450 on a 24. Jasmijn did 456 the previous week on the 24. The group had a tailwind, and was a group after all. I'd say she went off a bit fast, and had to rest. Not surprising, given her 24 victory.

Anco was more measured. He seemed to do 25kph moving overall, and stopped very little.

The skillset to manage the elite group exists within LEL. Edwin Hargraves would be ideal.

[CrinklyLion]

Why not just change the max speed to 18kph. Or 15. Then you'd have a lovely steady predictable rider flow, wouldn't you?

 

[hellymedic]

Max or min?

[CrinklyLion]

Max of 15, min of 12 (or whatever it was) and you'll have a _splendidly_ predictable demand around the route

[Exit Stage Left]

Max of 15, min of 12 (or whatever it was) and you'll have a _splendidly_ predictable demand around the route

It's a good idea, and the original form of Audax.

Euraudax (original form of audax)
Participants in the original form of audax ride in a group, at a steady pace set by a road captain. The group aims to cycle at 22.5 km/h between stops. The route is planned with designated stopping points. In longer audax events the group may ride between 16 and 20 hours in a day before stopping at a designated sleeping location. The goal of the audax is for all group members to finish within the time limit. A support vehicle is allowed to follow each group of riders.

It's then very simple to cater for.

Unfortunately.

Randonneuring is similar to the original Audax style in that riders attempt to complete long-distance cycling events. However, instead of riding together in a group, participants are free to cycle at their own pace (French: allure libre), stop or sleep wherever they want and form groups randomly, provided they stay within the time limit.

In some countries (e.g. USA), a clear distinction is drawn between 'Audax' and 'Randonneuring'. In others, such as Australia and Great Britain, the original Audax style is relatively unknown, and 'Audax' and 'Randonneuring' are used interchangeably.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audax_(cycling)#History

So we're stuck with the one that's fiddly to do.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Just for interest's sake, UAF brevets originally were scheduled at 18 km/h between stops, then 20 km/h and now 22.5 km/h. I'm not sure if the schedule speed increases followed improvements in road surfaces over the decades. When brevets began, of course, cobbles/ pave was commonplace and tarmac (as we know it) was unheard of.

UAF brevets in the Netherlands were scheduled at 25 km/h for a number of years but no more.

[Exit Stage Left]

The lack of 'Euraudax' in the UK presents an interesting problem. Clearly if you're a conformist where 'Euraudax' exists, then you've got the ideal outlet, within a group, controlled by someone at the front, with a whistle. If you have a rebellious streak, you become a Randonneur

In the UK, there's no opportunity for that, so we have to conform to a more individualistic model, which suits most Brits down to the ground. The best way to rebel in Britain is to conform to something, anything will do, and the odder the better.

I reckon some Audaxers think they're rejecting the individualism inherent in being British, by doing something Communitarian and Continental. But they could be more Communitarian and Continental by doing Euraudax, which strikes me as a bit of a nightmare. I'd rather challenge the chaos, than run things on rails.

[Peter]

Blimey, I can see I've just skated across the pond.  I turned up, rode my bike, and then went home.  I'd no idea what a cauldron I was skimming over.

[Exit Stage Left]

I'm off doing a hedgelaying contract on an organic farm on the LEL route, in the middle of nowhere, between Moffat and Edinburgh.

So I've got to leave you lot with something to argue over, while I'm incommunicado in Lamancha, where I shall be Dreaming the Impossible Dream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfHnzYEHAow

Lots at windmills to tilt at.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The lack of 'Euraudax' in the UK presents an interesting problem.

That might change in the not-too-distant future. Audax Oz manages to have a few UAF brevets each year, among their normal calendar, that are eligible for both Audax Oz and UAF awards. AUK might be able to do the same sort of thing.

[Exit Stage Left]

It's the practical problem of group discipline that would be a nightmare for me. The humply terrain of Northern England isn't conducive to large people maintaining a steady pace.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

UAF brevets are only practical in flatter parts of the world. UAF riders aim to be pretty slow up hills anyway.

[Exit Stage Left]

If I'd been able to keep pace with club runs, which always hit the hills, I might never have done Audax.

[Exit Stage Left]

I've been driving up and down the A701, between Moffat and Edinburgh recently. Going South is prettier than going North, as that's the side that the steeper slopes of the hills are on. Others have commented that the route to Innerleithen is nicer heading North.

Might it be possible to route the fast riders anti-clockwise in Scotland, and to omit the Innerleithen control for them. Moffat could then open later, and perhaps stay open longer. Eskdalemuir must be one of the less expensive controls to have open. The fastest riders will be back at Brampton before the bulk of the field arrives. They could also have a different compulsory route from Moffat.

[mr ben]

I've been driving up and down the A701, between Moffat and Edinburgh recently. Going South is prettier than going North, as that's the side that the steeper slopes of the hills are on.

Which also makes its scarier; having driven numerous times I'm glad we were going up the beeftub. I may be a wimp.

[Exit Stage Left]

The Beef Tub has an average gradient of 2.6%. The surface is better on the Dumfries and Galloway side as well. I'm not sure what gradient 'The Granites' is. That climb feels worse.