Author Topic: Cross Training: Running  (Read 400009 times)

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #375 on: 09 March, 2010, 12:22:49 pm »
So I'm wondering whether, for those just wanting to finish a marathon, are those 16-20 mile Long Runs really necessary? Maybe you can do all the training on evenings and Sunday mornings, just like cyclists?

There's more than one marathon training plan that has you running no further than a half marathon during your training.

As you say, if you can run 13 miles and not feel broken afterwards then you should be able to finish a marathon even if it meets stumbling over the line with poo dribbling down your legs.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #376 on: 09 March, 2010, 12:27:40 pm »
As you say, if you can run 13 miles and not feel broken afterwards then you should be able to finish a marathon even if it meets stumbling over the line with poo dribbling down your legs.
I think I remember your first 200k ...                    ;)

Quick google comes up with

The ‘Get You Round’ schedule

A beginner’s programme, mixing some walking with running, over 4-5 days a week.

The idea here is to get you fit enough to make it round the course, regardless of speed, so there’ll be very little fast work. You need to build up endurance and the schedule will help you to cut down on body weight.

   RW’s Basic Marathon Schedules: Get You Round – Racing – Runner's World

Longest run:
16-18M endurance run, taking drinks, walking 5 mins in every hour

---------------
EDIT: This is more like it! Suggests that 2_1/2 hours training run will get you to the finish of a 4:30 marathon run:
Marathon Training: Shorten the Long Run | Active.com

I'm struggling to find any science for the benefits of training runs beyond 2 hours.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #377 on: 09 March, 2010, 01:34:02 pm »
As you say, if you can run 13 miles and not feel broken afterwards then you should be able to finish a marathon even if it meets stumbling over the line with poo dribbling down your legs.
Longest run:
16-18M endurance run, taking drinks, walking 5 mins in every hour

A lot of schedules say a maximum of 20 mile long runs and even that you do more damage than good exceeding 20 so 18 miles should do - 13 miles sounds a bit ambitious though.

I think it's different from cycling, the body tends to give way rather than the soul.  I've seen runners not just unable to continue but unable to move due to cramps/injury, it's not just a case of give up and get on the train.  Lots of St John's Ambulance presence at running races.
The lights were red, his brain was small - he hardly felt a thing at all.

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #378 on: 09 March, 2010, 01:37:24 pm »
True, true, but then that's the problem comparing apples and oranges like I did.

Lots of St John's Ambulance presence at running races.

Don't they get a lot of stick from the real St John Ambulance people trading on a misspelling of their name? ;)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #379 on: 09 March, 2010, 03:32:40 pm »
True, true, but then that's the problem comparing apples and oranges like I did.

Lots of St John's Ambulance presence at running races.

Don't they get a lot of stick from the real St John Ambulance people trading on a misspelling of their name? ;)

Oh and there was I thinking they belonged to St John!
The lights were red, his brain was small - he hardly felt a thing at all.

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #380 on: 09 March, 2010, 05:29:59 pm »
Right. 33 minute run done at a slight incline (see posts passim) and 10.5kph.

*waits for GTC to fire up*

Avg 180bpm, Max HR 191bpm. Bleurgh.

It will be helpful when the aircon is put in, and/or they give us a new fan (current one is broken). Running in warm still air is utterly horrible. I'm hoping it's a revelation when I start to run in to work. Not least something other than a blank wall to stare at (looking forward to running through Parsons Green especially).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #381 on: 09 March, 2010, 07:36:42 pm »
Frenchie's got a point that it's a lot of bother preparing for a marathon, even a slow one which is the best I'll ever manage. 

I reckon I could do a marathon now. I might just get under 4 hours. But I'd probably suffer on it and I don't really want to if I can help it.
I am one of the Audax style runners who just wants to do the distance. I'd rather do a scenic ultra distance run than a fast marathon. I did want to go under 2 hours for the half because I think it's a benchmark for a layman runner. If I do a normal road marathon then I'll definitely be trying to get under 4 hours. I thinkI could get under 3 if I trained properly, but I'm a cyclist and my aim for the year is the Miglia Italia 1000 mile ride in the Italian mountains on my fixer. Running is just a side show for me and will take second place.
Talking to Hummers about the Long Distance Walking Association was one of the big inspirations for me getting into this. I might have a go at one/some of their 100 milers one day. Not this year, I'd have to compromise my cycling to get in condition for one of those, but if and when I think I can hack it, I'll probably give it a go one day and hope to run or jog around rather than walk, if I'm capable.


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If you've not found them yet there are race calenders and reviews at Runners World and at Fetch  (you have to sign up but don't have to pay).  Fetch is more a running community than a business and is also great for logging/planning training.


Cheers. I'll have a look at those. Cycling will move to the fore now though. I need to get some miles in and get a bit fitter. I hope to use running to compliment my cycling. I might try and sneak a crafty marathon in the spring or summer, but special running events will be on hold now untill the cycling eases off in the autumn. My aim in running now is to up my regular running distance to get myself fit enough to do a comfortable sub 4 hour marathon or a fun little ultra marathon in preperation for the biggest event I think I can manage in the autumn.

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Roman Trail 10 miler at Chedworth for me in 2 weeks, loved it last year, friendly trail run with stream to splash through and a hill etc and 10 miles isn't very far at the moment.  Then the Compton 20 in April which is really hilly and I shall strugle round, it offers the option of switching to the 40 miler at the 19.5 mile point - I most definitely won't be doing that  :facepalm:

40 miles! Now you're talking. :thumbsup:
But allthough I might be able to get around it, it would take me some doing. I'll aim for a marathon next. One step at a time, it's only for fun.


My training has only comprised of doing 3 miles twice a week. Tuesdays, run a mile and a half, stop for an hour, then run home. Same on Thursdays. I did do about 2 and a half miles a few times. Sometimes I had 3kg on each ankle and my steel toecapped boots. That, and the 10k fun run was all I did.
I intend to increase the distance of my regular runs now. I think that a little bit every day is better than one big effort every now and then.
Besides, I wont do it if I stop enjoying it. I'd never use a treadmill. I go outside and put my radio or MP3 on. Milton Keynes is great for running too. Lots of parks, streams and lakes to run through/along/around on the Redways and miles of paths. Quite a few nice laydees running about too :D (Probably running away from me!)

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #382 on: 09 March, 2010, 09:24:33 pm »

I reckon I could do a marathon now.


After doing that well in the MK Half on that tiny bit of training I wouldn't be that surprised if you went and ran a flattish marathon straight off treating MK as sufficient training.  Probably without the help of St John or the poo down the leg and proving whatever I just said up there ^ totally wrong.  You're a lot fitter and stronger than some of us here though so don't go setting us a bad example  ;)

I'm enjoying getting my monthly 200 in at the moment, I'm treating it as my rest week in my run training plan which seems to work.  I may ride a 300 but nothing longer than that this year, like you say you have to choose or compromise both sports (or work on the swimming and do an Ironman).


The lights were red, his brain was small - he hardly felt a thing at all.

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #383 on: 09 March, 2010, 10:56:05 pm »
or work on the swimming and do an Ironman.

I once had a very good triathlete talk to me about me doing an Ironman about 15 years ago.

It's mostly the swimming that puts me off.
a) I'm awful at swimming. In 1997 I tried to swim a length. I was very fit that year and cycling for several hundred miles a weekend was normal. I failed my first attempt because I stopped on the way. My second attempt was successfull. 20 minutes later my breathing was back to normal. Then I got told off advised by the lifegaurd not to go in the deep end.
I fell over in the sea when I was 5. If my dad never ran into the sea, swam after me and pulled me out I'd probably have died, I can certainly remember a lot of gasps and shocked faces as my dad carried me back to my mum. I've always been scared of water that is deeper than I can stand up in since then and doing my length was as much about overcoming fear as it was about swimming. I did stay at the side of the pool so I could grab the rail if I got too scared or tired, so I was very happy that I managed a length without touching the side. I think fear helped a bit though.
I started swimming in about 2001 and built myself up to doing 7 consecutive lengths in my local pool where I could stay in the shallow end for the whole length, but I found it a bit tedious. My swimming technique is very poor and I really am not motivated to improve on it.
b) I hear that triathlons are quite expensive compared to cycling and I'm a peasant who isn't keen on having little money for the important things (like cycling), so tries not to spend it on less important flights of fancy.

If I was going to do a triathlon, it would be an Ironman and nothing less shorter. Ultra distance is for me, it's just how I am.


Quote
I'm enjoying getting my monthly 200 in at the moment

My longest ride so far this year is about 90 miles. ;D

Hummers

  • It is all about the taste.
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #384 on: 15 March, 2010, 06:27:48 am »
Interesting thread this.

I have made a very tentative step back into running, not for anything other than enjoyment, and have noted some Hummers related points:

1) I really miss running  - just didn't realise how much
2) Those muscles in the bits of my legs beneath the knee? You need them to be quite strong for running up hills and after 6 non-running years, mine are not strong any more
3) I am nowhere near as fit as I thought I was. You have to be fit for cross-country running over the Downs
4) The issue that started to develop on my right knee at the end of 2009 has eased up since I began running suggesting a cycling related muscle imbalance
5) My back is still borked and road running shakes the crap out of me

Watch this space as I have bought some trail related running shoes and intend to get back into this again.

Noting Teethgrinders comments about ultra-distance walking events, the LDWA run a series of such challenges, one such event being the yearly 100 miler which is held in a different part of the country every year. This year's is in Scotland.

Think of these as the Audax of the walking world (although technically a race) where you have 48 hours to cover 100 (quite often) hilly miles. I did the Dartmoor 100 in 1984 and from experience, that is where the comparison ends with Audax as these events are far tougher - physically and mentally - than any Audax event I have done. You really are out in the elements; there are no petrol stations or convenience stores to top up your bonk rations or provide shelter from the weather. Mind you, I was very fit then; jogged the first 25 miles in 5 hours and I got around the whole thing in a sleepless 33 hours and 20 minutes. The fastest participant got around in just over 20 hours. A bit broken at the end, I vowed never to do one of those again and have no desire to reverse that decision.

Someone who is still active in this field is Mr Arthur Vince (of Primrose Path fame) who runs this sort of event as well as taking part in them.

H

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #385 on: 15 March, 2010, 09:20:58 am »
The first I heard about LDWA 100 milers was from a few years ago from AUK Doug Aspinall.  At first he made it sound like a fun challenge but then he told me the bit about toenails turning black and falling off so I though I'd give it a miss   :sick:
The lights were red, his brain was small - he hardly felt a thing at all.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #386 on: 15 March, 2010, 12:41:33 pm »
I recently browsed what seemed a good book about doing a 100-miler, but it was about £15, which put me off! The bits I read were VERY Audaxy (the author was far more walker than runner - bit like my Audax-style)

[google-fu fails me ... ]

Hummers, if you were a less sensitive petal, I would ask a slightly personal question at this point:
Were you a lot ... lighter in your running glory days?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #387 on: 15 March, 2010, 06:51:27 pm »
Think of these as the Audax of the walking world (although technically a race) where you have 48 hours to cover 100 (quite often) hilly miles. I did the Dartmoor 100 in 1984 and from experience, that is where the comparison ends with Audax as these events are far tougher - physically and mentally - than any Audax event I have done.

I think they would be the same as any Audax event if they were done along surfaced roads. But I think they are probably more like doing Audax distance rides on a mountain bike and off road. If you've ever been mountain biking you'll know how much harder it is to do the miles off road and usually with much more climbing.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #388 on: 15 March, 2010, 07:00:45 pm »
... and that's before you take into account that running is generally slower than cycling too. :P

(If such an event was mostly on tarmac, I'd want my money back - I don't go walking for fun on roads.)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #389 on: 15 March, 2010, 07:36:45 pm »
36min on the treadmill tomorrow. Bag packed so I can't forget anything (like shorts that fit or change of clothes). Ugh.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #390 on: 15 March, 2010, 11:37:41 pm »
Inspired by Mr Izzard and devastated by recent poor performance on the bike, pro-tem I've switched to running to regain an exercise habit whilst I'm waiting for the weather to warm up. I'm not planning to run a Marathon every day for a month though, just my local 11km circuit, basically up and down the riverbanks between Chiswick and Hammersmith Bridges, and home. First time out was well over 1:30, now circa 1:15. I'll be happy to get it under an hour.

11km is more or less the same distance of the outer path of Richmond Park, four laps of which is a smidgeon more than a Marathon. I might have a crack at that in the summer. We shall see.

Currently on day 17 out of 17.

23/03 Chiswick to Putney today (16km). Still pretty slow.
21/03 Last two outings as single laps of Richmond Park. Starting to feel like I'm moving from shuffle to jog mode.

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #391 on: 16 March, 2010, 11:02:12 am »
Inspired by Mr Izzard and devastated by recent poor performance on the bike, pro-tem I've switched to running to regain an exercise habit whilst I'm waiting for the weather to warm up. I'm not planning to run a Marathon every day for a month though, just my local 11km circuit, basically up and down the riverbanks between Chiswick and Hammersmith Bridge, and home. First time out was well over 1:30, now circa 1:15. I'll be happy to get it under an hour.

11km is more or less the distance of the outer path of Richmond Park, four laps of which is a smidgeon over the Marathon distance. I might have a crack at that in the summer. We shall see.

Currently on day 6 out of 6.

You might find, as I have, that running around a lot doesn't help the bike performance one iota. 

What it does do is provide the convenient justification "Well I've been mostly concentrating on my running lately" as you slide off the back of the bunch  ;)
The lights were red, his brain was small - he hardly felt a thing at all.

Hummers

  • It is all about the taste.
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #392 on: 16 March, 2010, 11:14:24 am »
Quote from: mattc link=topic=58.msg571576#msg571576
Hummers, if you were a less sensitive petal, I would ask a slightly personal question at this point:
Were you a lot ... lighter in your running glory days?

4st lighter and 26 years younger.

I have a picture somewhere that begs the question "where did that young man go". Someone rather wittily once pointed out "you ate him, Hummers".

On saying that, through my last running foray I managed to get down to just over 14st for the Great Traverse of the Cuillin in one hit back in 1999. This is another mental and physical feat that for me, will not be repeated.

I think they would be the same as any Audax event if they were done along surfaced roads. But I think they are probably more like doing Audax distance rides on a mountain bike and off road. If you've ever been mountain biking you'll know how much harder it is to do the miles off road and usually with much more climbing.

I guess you'll have to find that out for yourself.

All I know is that there is no freewheel for your legs when you are on foot and whilst I am sure you are right about covering Audax distances off road being harder, the Dartmoor 100 was very physically punishing. I could hardly walk at all the day after and it was over a week before I could walk properly again - despite being a very fit and regularly used to covering distances of 50 miles over rough terrain in around or under 12 hours.

Then again, as with all things, the first of anything is either the first of many or the first and last. My mate Tom took almost the whole 48 hours to complete the same event but went on to do over 10 consecutive 100s, some harder than the Dartmoor 100 by quite a margin (Snowdonia 100 - 30000ft of ascent). In the end, he didn't bother to train for them because running, walking and cycling everywhere became a pivotal part of his life so 'training' meant nothing. He stopped the 100s in the end after a series of injuries led to him questioning why he was doing them - and not liking the answers.

I am very happy with the Audax stuff now as it offers a reasonable challenge, is more sociable, keeps me fit and I get to see some great countryside without killing or injuring myself in the process.

H

andygates

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Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #393 on: 16 March, 2010, 11:27:01 am »
You might find, as I have, that running around a lot doesn't help the bike performance one iota. 

Aye, save for one angle: running is great for weight loss, and being lighter is great on the bike.
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #394 on: 16 March, 2010, 11:57:42 am »
Noting Teethgrinders comments about ultra-distance walking events, the LDWA run a series of such challenges, one such event being the yearly 100 miler which is held in a different part of the country every year. This year's is in Scotland.

... which sold out all 530 places in February.

So it's about as popular as Audax (i.e. if you make a very rough comparison to 600+ entries). Nutters ...

Found the Julie Welch 100-miler book:

         Long-distance walking: Iron in the soles -
            Features, Health & Families - The Independent

It's £17 !
(via the LDWA site. Which is bloody annoying on a small screen - reminds me why I like aukweb.net ! Oh, and the Audax calendar is much better. )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Hummers

  • It is all about the taste.
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #395 on: 16 March, 2010, 12:22:16 pm »
... and being lighter is great on the bike.

Yes and no: quicker going up, slower going down.

Not much difference on flat/rolling countryside though.

Other than your shorts fit you better.

H

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #396 on: 16 March, 2010, 09:14:44 pm »
Noting Teethgrinders comments about ultra-distance walking events, the LDWA run a series of such challenges, one such event being the yearly 100 miler which is held in a different part of the country every year. This year's is in Scotland.

... which sold out all 530 places in February.

So it's about as popular as Audax (i.e. if you make a very rough comparison to 600+ entries). Nutters ...

Found the Julie Welch 100-miler book:

         Long-distance walking: Iron in the soles -
            Features, Health & Families - The Independent

It's £17 !
(via the LDWA site. Which is bloody annoying on a small screen - reminds me why I like aukweb.net ! Oh, and the Audax calendar is much better. )

Donchajustlove the comments. I was a bit shocked myself...

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #397 on: 16 March, 2010, 10:28:04 pm »
I think they would be the same as any Audax event if they were done along surfaced roads. But I think they are probably more like doing Audax distance rides on a mountain bike and off road. If you've ever been mountain biking you'll know how much harder it is to do the miles off road and usually with much more climbing.

I guess you'll have to find that out for yourself.

All I know is that there is no freewheel for your legs when you are on foot and whilst I am sure you are right about covering Audax distances off road being harder,

Riding a mountain bike, even on the road is tough going. I cycled to Dolgellau in 2006 on my mountain bike on a Bank Holiday weekend, to meet a friend to go mountain biking at Coed-y-Brenin. It was about 170 miles which would have been an easy 10-12 hour ride on the road bike. It was a long slog on the mountain bike and I was still very tired from it the day after when I was riding with my friend, but because my friend had his girlfriend with him and she was riding with us I didn't need to be fresh, but I still had to spend a while in the cafe reviving myself while they rode one of the shorter trails.
Then I cycled home on the Monday. I realised that it would have been faster and much easier for me to ride up on the road bike and just walk around the mountain bike trails, then ride home again.
Add to that that off roading is harder still than road riding because of the rough surfaces and extra hilliness. I know that I'd not find it easy to cycle 600km in a weekend off road. Even just a 100 mile ride without much climbing is quite a tough day on the mountain bike when I'm fit.

But yes, I'll have to suck it and see. I'm not sure I'll be able to manage a 100 miler this year though.


Quote
My mate Tom took almost the whole 48 hours to complete the same event but went on to do over 10 consecutive 100s, some harder than the Dartmoor 100 by quite a margin (Snowdonia 100 - 30000ft of ascent). In the end, he didn't bother to train for them because running, walking and cycling everywhere became a pivotal part of his life so 'training' meant nothing. He stopped the 100s in the end after a series of injuries led to him questioning why he was doing them - and not liking the answers.

That's the thing. It's what I tried to do in 2007. Just start easy early in the year and get myself doing the distance and naturally get fitter. The toughest rides, or at lest, the ones that hurt the most were the ones from January to March. I was increasing the distance of the rides then, I wasn't up to speed and the weather was usually very tough. Lots of strong headwinds and often into driving rain and dark for most of the rides. I remember reading about people struggling to ride into those winds for 100k where I was riding into them for 400. But once the weather improved (a bit, it was a pretty crap year for weather) and I recovered, it just became business as usual. This meant that I could recover more and get even stronger so that I was doing mega miles and still sometimes in bad conditions, but much more easily. These rides I was doing mid-summer quite comfartably would have been impossible for me in the early season.

It's sort of why I'm giving this a go too. You say you're not anything like as fit as you used to be, but you were going very well on Porkers and Brimstone last year. You can get up the hills fast for a big chap!
I'm wondering whether it's that you are a lot fitter than you think you are because you've just got into the swing of things or if this long distance walking really is all that tough. (I reckon that walking or running is much tougher than cycling because of the impact issues, but fitness wise about the same. If anyone tells me that travelling by foot needs more cardio fitness than cycling then I'll tell them to cycle faster.) After my half marathon (even if it was a very fast course) I'm starting to think it is the former.
But I want to find out for myself and it's something that appeals to me, so I'll give it a proper go. I wont suffer for doing it. If I stop enjoying it or start getting too damaged from it, then I'll stop. It's just a side show to my cycling which will always come first.



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I am very happy with the Audax stuff now as it offers a reasonable challenge, is more sociable, keeps me fit and I get to see some great countryside without killing or injuring myself in the process.

That's good, but be carefull, you can do too much of that Audax game. ;) ;D

Hummers

  • It is all about the taste.
Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #398 on: 16 March, 2010, 11:38:50 pm »
But yes, I'll have to suck it and see. I'm not sure I'll be able to manage a 100 miler this year though.

I have seen what you are capable of Mr Teethgrinder and have no doubt that you have the mettle to do this sort of event and will enjoy it immensely.

Best to get the inside track for 2011 as places go quickly and I think you still have to complete a recognised long distance event over 50 miles (in one hit) to be qualify for entry. I suggest you make contact with Arthur Vince on this score as I expect he's up on this stuff.

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You say you're not anything like as fit as you used to be, but you were going very well on Porkers and Brimstone last year. You can get up the hills fast for a big chap!

OK, you asked for it:

Climbing and fell running Hummers of yesteryear

vs

Cycling Hummers
 
Quote
But I want to find out for myself and it's something that appeals to me, so I'll give it a proper go. I wont suffer for doing it. If I stop enjoying it or start getting too damaged from it, then I'll stop. It's just a side show to my cycling which will always come first.


That is what they all say.......  :demon:

H

Re: Cross Training: Running
« Reply #399 on: 16 March, 2010, 11:58:23 pm »

OK, you asked for it:

Climbing and fell running Hummers of yesteryear

vs

Cycling Hummers
 

All I can tell from those photos is that you've got a belly and you wear even less clothing now. Probably a bit more hairy too.


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Best to get the inside track for 2011 as places go quickly and I think you still have to complete a recognised long distance event over 50 miles (in one hit) to be qualify for entry. I suggest you make contact with Arthur Vince on this score as I expect he's up on this stuff.

That sounds like a plan. I reckon I could manage a 50 miler if I get my arse in gear and if I liked it I could go for the 100. :thumbsup: