Author Topic: LED room lighting (again)  (Read 71161 times)

velosam

  • '.....you used to be an apple on a stick.'
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #200 on: 02 November, 2016, 04:14:15 pm »
yes

Thanks again.

The transformers are Bambi - model tf -60pt
Pri 240v 50-60hz
sec 11.8v to eff 60W ma

for some reason a couple of literally melted, so do I just get the same and replace them?

Also it it worth changing the holders or shall I live with the two pins I have now?

With the switches I was going to get rid of the dimmers for 'normal' switches which should be better I hope.

thanks again

StevieB

  • I'm an embarrassment to my bicycle!
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #201 on: 16 November, 2016, 08:59:12 pm »
Yes, you can replace the transformers with the same ones, or similar... But there is another way:

I bought these holders:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CJC3QDU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

which means I could use GU10  bulbs, which connect directly to the mains, thus removing the need for any transformers. Here are the bulbs I used:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00RXH4IV0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

All nine are still going strong since January.

I didn't need to change the fittings as in both cases the bulbs are held by a ring at the widest circumference.

Now, it could be the reduced current needed for LEDs (3W verses 25W halogen in my case) mean the transformers would no longer get warm, and thus last for ever. But I can say of the nine I removed only one showed no signs of melting, and that is based on the outside of the case - I hate to think what was happening inside! So I sleep easier with the transformers in the bin. 

If you think about it, my 3W LED bulbs are giving a light output similar to the old 25W halogens - it means the old bulbs were producing 22W of heat!

I should say you need to get a qualified electrician involved.


It may be self-flagellation, but it still hurts

BrianI

  • Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's Lepidopterist Man!
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #202 on: 16 November, 2016, 09:08:26 pm »
An odd thing with the LED 3W G9 bulbs which are in the ceiling light on the top landing.  This light is switchable due to magic, from the light switch downstairs and the light switch on the landing upstairs.

Curiously if I switch it on downstairs, then switch it off upstairs, then the LEDs have a very faint glow which does not go away.  Conversely if I do the opposite, then they stay 100% off when switched off.

 ???

Makes for a handy night light for nocturnal toilet visits, just not sure it's doing the leds any good. 

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #203 on: 16 November, 2016, 09:21:52 pm »
As I mentioned on another thread, be aware that 12v 'transformers' for halogens may not work with LEDs.

Some 'transformers' are not transformers ( which would be fine ); but are small 12v Switch-mode PSUs.
Some of these require a minimum load in order to start up properly.
A SMPS designed for 50W of halogen may simply not see the load from a few watts of LED, and just fail to start.

Kim

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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #204 on: 16 November, 2016, 10:11:16 pm »
Curiously if I switch it on downstairs, then switch it off upstairs, then the LEDs have a very faint glow which does not go away.  Conversely if I do the opposite, then they stay 100% off when switched off.

 ???

Probably enough capacitive coupling on the longer cable run to just light the LEDs.  Which just goes to show how efficient they are.


Quote
Makes for a handy night light for nocturnal toilet visits, just not sure it's doing the leds any good.

I'd say Mostly Harmless.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #205 on: 10 February, 2017, 01:34:29 am »
CFLs are the work of Stan!
LEDs are getting nicer and cheaper. Got my last by mail order (can't remember whether it was Amazon or ebay) . They weren't too pricy given their claimed longevity.
They have been brighter than anticipated and U'd suggest getting a LOWER wattage than you might think you need.

Thread necromancy.

The claimed longevity of these lamps (30,000 hours) is a LIE!

Three of the four lamps in my kitchen have now failed in less than a year.

They have lasted around 10% of the stated life.

I am underwhelmed.

And another one down
And another one down
Another one bites the dust!

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #206 on: 10 February, 2017, 07:32:19 am »
We've had LED downlighters in our kitchen for a couple of years now, with no failures. They were Philips I think.

At work we have started using Enlight LED bulbs in place of CFL. I shall definitely be getting some to replace certain CFL's in our house as failures occur, as they have the advantage of instant full light a la filament bulbs, though to be fair the CFL's we have give 80% light instantly.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Jaded

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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #207 on: 10 February, 2017, 07:53:05 am »
We've had 9 LED downlights in our kitchen for 4.5 years and 16 in the remainder of the ground floor for 3.5 years. No failures and they are guaranteed for 10 years, so I'm not expecting failures for a while.
It is simpler than it looks.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #208 on: 10 February, 2017, 08:03:25 am »
I've had no problems in 3 years with Philips LEDs.  It's the unbranded Chinese shite that only lasts for a few days or weeks.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #209 on: 10 February, 2017, 11:28:08 am »
I might look for Phillips.

It seems filament R63s are still available, at lowish cost.

I am tempted to be a Bad Gurl!

Biggsy

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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #210 on: 10 February, 2017, 12:03:17 pm »
Yes, I'm switching to mostly Philips as well.  Fed up with Wilko LEDs failing far too prematurely.  The Philips ones are more efficient, too
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offcumden

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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #211 on: 10 February, 2017, 12:10:47 pm »
Screwfix seem to be doing cheap LEDs at the moment.  No personal experience, though.
http://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-gu10-led-reflector-lamp-345lm-900cd-5-2w-5-pack/2275p

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #212 on: 10 February, 2017, 12:55:08 pm »
Thanks! I need R63s but I see Screwfix have  these very cheap too.

The nearest Screwfix is about half a mile away so I might send David out.

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #213 on: 20 May, 2017, 04:35:38 pm »
Any thoughts about options for LED workshop lighting? I'm using fluorescent at the moment, but the SEEKRIT BUNKER is not that high, and is pretty dim. Plus, while I haven't yet smashed a tube, I've always regarded as just a matter of time, LED would help in that respect, too. I suspect the LED tape/strip is probably the best, I could increase the light by running multiples alongside each other.

velosam

  • '.....you used to be an apple on a stick.'
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #214 on: 03 July, 2017, 10:07:42 am »
Yes, you can replace the transformers with the same ones, or similar... But there is another way:

I bought these holders:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CJC3QDU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

which means I could use GU10  bulbs, which connect directly to the mains, thus removing the need for any transformers.

Being thick but how do these eliminate the transformers?

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #215 on: 03 July, 2017, 10:11:58 am »
Yes, you can replace the transformers with the same ones, or similar... But there is another way:

I bought these holders:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CJC3QDU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

which means I could use GU10  bulbs, which connect directly to the mains, thus removing the need for any transformers.

Being thick but how do these eliminate the transformers?
GU10 bulbs run straight off the mains
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #216 on: 03 July, 2017, 10:45:21 am »
In slightly more detail, most common LEDs actually need a very low voltage, typically between 1.6V and 4V.

Historically, most incandescent and fluorescent lamps have been designed to operate directly off of 240V (or 230V, depending!)

Some lamps, and the ones being discussed here are probably MR16 Low Voltage halogens, will use much lower voltages such as 12V, hence need a transformer to drop that 240V to 12V.  One transformer is generally shared by multiple lamps.

Various techniques are used with LEDs, to drop that 240V to whatever voltage the individual LEDs need.  Typically White LEDs need between 3V and 4V, and simplistically a large number of small LEDs can just be wired in series (it's not quite as simple as that, but you get the idea).  Internal transformers can also be used, although a transformer for each individual LED "bulb" would probably be excessively expensive, so cheaper methods are used.  This is not apparent to users, because it's all done internally, within each individual bulb.

The GU10's that are being discussed are normally designed to work from the mains (240V) directly, rather than via a 240V to 12V transformer as MR16 bulbs are often installed with.  Both GU10 LED and MR16 LED bulbs, need some internal method of dropping the voltage (from either 240V for GU10s or 12V for MR16s), albeit it's probably easy to design the MR16s to do this, because of the smaller voltage drop.

(GU10 and MR16 are really descriptors for the physical connectors, but typically are used to describe small 240V and 12V bulbs, often used in installations such as kitchen lighting).

So, when using 240V mains, the transformers needed to drop from 240V to 12V for an MR16 compatible LED bulb, are not necessary with a GU10 compatible LED bulb.  This isn't really a feature of LED bulbs per se, which as I've attempted to explain, actually need a far lower voltage internally, but that's obscured by designing the individual units to operate from whatever voltage the original incandescent bulbs were designed to be used with.

There are some generalisations in the above description, but it's broadly correct in most cases.


As an aside, some very cheap 240V LED bulbs have been found, that allow very easy 'access' to 240V, because the many small LEDs used, are progressively dropping the 240V across a series of LEDs in series.  With a poorly designed case, the 240V can accidentally become exposed far more easily and less obviously, than with a traditional incandescent bulb.  You shouldn't be able to find these sort of bulbs in shops, because they're illegal to sell in the UK, but you may easily buy them from sellers on Amazon and eBay (or similar).
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Valiant

  • aka Sam
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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #217 on: 03 July, 2017, 01:26:06 pm »
Any thoughts about options for LED workshop lighting? I'm using fluorescent at the moment, but the SEEKRIT BUNKER is not that high, and is pretty dim. Plus, while I haven't yet smashed a tube, I've always regarded as just a matter of time, LED would help in that respect, too. I suspect the LED tape/strip is probably the best, I could increase the light by running multiples alongside each other.

I'm testing out a 6ft LED replacement for 8ft T12 flouros atm at the town hall. Will let you know how I get on. You're always welcome to come and see it in person if you're going past.
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Kim

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Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #218 on: 03 July, 2017, 01:40:59 pm »
To carry on that tangent, there are various techniques that can be used to drop 240VAC or 12VAC down to the ~4VDC used by the LEDs.  The circuit can be anything from a single capacitor (or even resistor) to a fully regulated switched-mode power supply (like the one in your phone charger).  Obviously more complicated circuits cost more, and are physically bigger, which means they tend to be avoided by no-name Chinese manufacturers, and whenever the electronics has to fit in a small physical volume (eg. the cap of a lamp).[1]

The problem with the simpler drivers is that they tend to result in the LEDs flickering or outright flashing on and off at double the mains frequency (100Hz in the UK).  This is one of those things that most people are either unable to perceive or are normally oblivious to, but can cause migraines, eyestrain and fatigue (as well as visual artefacts on moving objects, so contraindicated where power tools are being used).  Children, people with autism-spectrum conditions and those with some types of visual impairment are particularly likely to be sensitive to flicker, though they may not be aware of or able to verbalise the problem.

The other problem with cheap simple drivers is that they tend to be less power efficient, and are more likely to be running components at the limits of their rating, resulting in shortened life.  And as TimO says, some of them expose mains voltages in places where they might be susceptible to gefingerpoken.

Unfortunately, short of tearing down the driver electronics or performing measurements, it's hard to tell whether a particular driver is good or bad.  Someone who can perceive flicker might be able to tell just by looking at the lit LED, but that's no good when its still in its box.  Even the quality manufacturers aren't immune.


[1] The old-fashioned 'filament' style LED lamps (currently on display in a tragic hipster coffee shop near you) are nearly always a flicker nightmare.  There isn't room in the cap for a decent smoothing capacitor (a larger block of driver circuitry would ruin the aesthetic), and since the filaments consist of a long string of LEDs in series, the high turn-on voltage results in a particularly aggressive duty cycle.

velosam

  • '.....you used to be an apple on a stick.'
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #219 on: 03 July, 2017, 02:05:39 pm »
Thanks Tim and Kim.

Given that half the MR16 are blown with the transformers, I may as well replace them with the GU10.

I guess the only concern is that the wire is not going to be long enough, can I buy holders with extra long wires, as everything I could find was short? Thanks


Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #220 on: 03 July, 2017, 02:47:47 pm »
Any thoughts about options for LED workshop lighting? I'm using fluorescent at the moment, but the SEEKRIT BUNKER is not that high, and is pretty dim. Plus, while I haven't yet smashed a tube, I've always regarded as just a matter of time, LED would help in that respect, too. I suspect the LED tape/strip is probably the best, I could increase the light by running multiples alongside each other.

I'm testing out a 6ft LED replacement for 8ft T12 flouros atm at the town hall. Will let you know how I get on. You're always welcome to come and see it in person if you're going past.

Might well take you up on that, thanks. I've taken to riding the A13 on my way home in preference to CS3 anyhow.

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #221 on: 03 July, 2017, 04:28:49 pm »
... I guess the only concern is that the wire is not going to be long enough, can I buy holders with extra long wires, as everything I could find was short? Thanks

A cursory search seems to suggest that most of these holders have wires which are around 15cm to 20cm long.  I imagine you could lengthen them, fairly easily, but do remember that these will be at 240V, potentially with a low but not trivial current in them.  I'd be somewhat careful about long single insulated conductors.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

velosam

  • '.....you used to be an apple on a stick.'
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #222 on: 12 July, 2017, 07:18:31 pm »
An update. Thank you all for your help. I managed to replace the halogens with LEDs (using the links above). 

So another update most of the house is wired around 70%.

I have struggled on a couple of ones:
1. On a few there is no slack to pull any cable out - all I have is the mr16 holder and the thin wires out of the transformer.  Is it safe to connect these to a gu10 holder via a junction box?

2. The bathroom lights have a different holder and housing. I think similar to this:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mr16+waterproof+housing&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_q8G24qHVAhUrD8AKHd-FAPIQ_AUIBygC&biw=1060&bih=476&dpr=1.51#imgrc=MlXVC2k3dMr7oM:&spf=1500894497926

except the bulb is in a holder?

Is there a simple way of changing these using the existing holders, I am not even sure I know where the transformer is.  I am not keen on removing the housing as when I have removed them off from the ceilings, a lot of the edges have crumbled away. Is there a solution to this at all  - larger housings, plastering etc?

thanks

sam

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #223 on: 11 September, 2017, 01:54:04 am »
CFLs are the work of Stan!
LEDs are getting nicer and cheaper. Got my last by mail order (can't remember whether it was Amazon or ebay) . They weren't too pricy given their claimed longevity.
They have been brighter than anticipated and U'd suggest getting a LOWER wattage than you might think you need.

Thread necromancy.

The claimed longevity of these lamps (30,000 hours) is a LIE!

Three of the four lamps in my kitchen have now failed in less than a year.

They have lasted around 10% of the stated life.

I am underwhelmed.

And another one down
And another one down
Another one bites the dust!

Lamp by my fridge has gone AGAIN! 7 months is 5040 hours. It's been summer. Hardly lasted 1000 hours. AAAARRRGGGHHH!

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #224 on: 11 September, 2017, 05:33:09 pm »
Does anyone know of a UK source for LED ES27 / BC-22 replacement bulbs that are 'FULLY ENCLOSED' rated (eg for use in Zone 2 bathroom lamps)?

I know they exist and are sold by USA on-line stores, but an internet search is not finding any on-line here in UK.
(NB Some seemed to have rather more heatsink-y looking parts if their case: == fins).

Screwfix catalogue makes no mention of such features:

I would of course prefer a real shop rather than internet purchases.