OK, so "a freind" wants to try one of these machines

[AndyH]

My "friend" has ridden a bike all his life, & likes fast but practical. Enigma Etape Ti currently. 2 wheels seem to be enough for him. He's got an urge to try a recumbent, but not a big enough urge to go and buy one. He tells me these things aren't cheap.

Where's the best place he should start ?
What sort of machine would the panel advise ?
How can he try one for a meaningful length of time ?
Should I advise him to stop being so stupid, & get some help ?

My "freind" doesn't have a computer, so any answers will have to come via me.












 

[Kim]

You could probably do a lot worse than a trip to D-Tek.  What he lacks in reliability, Kevin makes up for in enthusiasm for letting people play with toys.  Other clueful recumbent dealers are available.  Some even answer their email.  Most appreciate that the cost is a significant barrier, and are happy to play the long game.

I note that there's also a lot to be learned in the ways of the dark side by hanging around with the slightly odder people at the Midlenhall Rally.   

As for what sort of machine, that's going to be a case of what you want to use it for combined with what you get on with.  All things being equal, a recumbent will be a bit heavier and a lot more aero than an equivalent upright bike.  A lot like tandems, you have to be prepared to play to their strengths to avoid disappointment.  It's probably fair to say that there's a lot more variation in recumbents than there is in uprights aimed at the same sort of job.  Play with everything you can, and work out how you feel about fundamental design decisions like height, wheelbase, suspension and the different seating and steering arrangements.  Then sit down and have a really good think about gearing (if you're not currently a spinner, bear in mind that you might have to become one).  There's no one true answer, but that should help you narrow things down.

For some geometries you will probably have to learn to ride a bike again almost from scratch.  Don't be put off by this.  If you put the miles in, it will come.  Cornering on an unfamiliar 'bent is scary, but scariness doesn't mean the bike can't corner well, IYSWIM.  Indeed, my Streetmachine is fairly reassuring in corners, but it's not actually that great at nipping round them without a bit of forward planning.

Don't dismiss three-wheelers completely (that is: at least have a play on a couple).  They don't really do it for me either, but they have their own advantages, and some people are much happier without having to balance at low speed.  They can be great fun to ride, and a complete arse to transport.

Not sure about trying one for a meaningful length of time, other than bearing in mind that second hand 'bents generally maintain their resale value quite well.  I jumped in the deep end because someone who shall remain nameless made me an offer I couldn't refuse on something I'd been lusting after for quite some time purely on spec.  I had no idea if I'd actually be able to ride it, but I'd be damned if I wasn't going to give it a bloody good try.  In the end, it worked out rather well, and opened up new possibilities for me cycling-wise.  But I'm now lusting after an actually fast n+1.

The dark side is, unfortunately, highly addictive.

[rower40]

^ Wot she said.
Except replace "You" with "Your friend" throughout.

[AndyH]

work out how you feel about fundamental design decisions like height, wheelbase, suspension and the different seating and steering arrangements.

That's probably the bit I My friend doesn't really understand. Having ridden with RichF and seen the Bacchetta used to great effect (so he tells me), "normal" sized wheels and a "normal(ish)" wheelbase looks like the way to go, but as I he said, I he doesn't really know.

Use? - Long distance.

Also steering with arms low rather than high looks more comfortable.

There's a place on the web called London Recumbents in Dulwich - anyone know anything about them?

[Kim]

That's probably the bit I My friend doesn't really understand. Having ridden with RichF and seen the Bacchetta used to great effect (so he tells me), "normal" sized wheels and a "normal(ish)" wheelbase looks like the way to go, but as I he said, I he doesn't really know.

There's a lot to be said about those Bacchettas.  A fair bit would be about how the design is fundamentally discriminatory to short people.  But then I  a) had a go on RichF's and acquired a massive grin  and  b) discovered they come in a Kim-sized 24" wheel version.  They're high up, which means good visibility (by which I mean ability to see things - all recumbents are highly visible to other road users), less mud in your face and awesome low-speed stability.

Large wheels for the most part eliminate the need for suspension (don't overlook this - you can't "get out of the saddle" on a 'bent, so it's good if something other than your spine takes the shock for long distance), and tend to make the gearing a lot simpler (more of an issue on 'fast' bikes rather than tourers).

Wheelbase is as much about the practicalities of transporting/storing the bike as the actual handling, IMO.

Also steering with arms low rather than high looks more comfortable.

Agreed, but it's relative:  They're all several thousand percent more comfortable than those silly bikes where you bear weight and provide reaction force to push the pedals on your arms, so the actual arrangement isn't that critical for comfort.  It does however influence the steering, get-off-and-pushability, choice of controls and space available to mount your toys (a significant issue for audax riding - exactly where are you going to put your GPS/routesheet/jelly babies/brevet card?).  'Hamster' bars do, I believe, give a significant aero advantage.

There's a place on the web called London Recumbents in Dulwich - anyone know anything about them?

We've just ordered a trike from them.  They have significant disability clue, and unusually for recumbent dealers actually answer their email/phone.  Beyond that, no idea, but I get the impression that they're a reasonably good bet for getting to play with various machines.

[Mr Arch]

One thing I would add with trying two wheel bents is under seat steering vs over seat steering.

I can ride one with over seat steering reasonably well and probably confidently given more time but, for the life of me, I cannot ride one with under seat steering.  Even, at SPEZI, with two chaps supporting and pushing me along at speed I would fall over the moment they let go.

Don't let that sort of thing put your friend off, it is well worth trying the different formats.

[arvid]

Oh. I can do one on USS vs OSS. When I just started recumbent riding I found OSS completely unintuitive. This was because if you imagine a steering wheel on your front wheel, on an OSS you would have your hand right next to each other on that wheel. It really doesn't matter whether you steer with 2 hands, it still feels like using only one.
On USS you have your hands opposite to each other on that wheel, like you have on an upright. OSS just felt wrong for me at first. I got over it though, mainly because OSS is a bit more aerodynamic than USS.
About hand position: I don't think it really matters, because there is no weight on them. It's very easy to steer with one hand and lay the other on your chest or belly. In both USS and OSS you just lay your hands on the steer and that's it. Your weight is on the seat, not on the steer. Forget pulling the bars, it doesn't do any good. You only use your arms to keep the bike going straight(ok, and brake and shift), and that takes about the force of keeping a bike upright while walking next to it.

[PhilO]

Drat! Just typed along description of various pros and cons and then lost it. Blasted IPad!

Brief version: there are two types of OSS; the heavily tillered 'praying hamster' and the more relaxed 'open cockpit' or 'tweener bars' design. I have an Optima with tiller steering but for ease of use a relaxed control I much prefer the open cockpit type.

Have a look at some pictures of the HPV Speed Machine. This is the only design I'm aware of which can be specified with all three variants. (USS, praying hamster, tweener).

[henshaw11]

I'd kinda forgotten, but the fact the Speedmachine *was* easily retrofittable was another minor advantage, because the frame's common to all models (ie the USS bar pivot is in the frame). Challenge, in particular don't (or didn't) have a common frame build, so whilst you could probably convert a USS machine to OSS (removing bars/adding tiller), you couldn't go from OSS to USS. Dunno 'bout other manufacturers...

(Pretty sure the Grasshopper can be swapped between types, probably the Streetmachine too - Kim ?)

I agree with Arvid re OSS being unintuitive - or at least, tiller is - feels weird having to swing a tiller and led to a minor off at low mph when I tried one    - but you do get used to them (not that I am at the mo'..). OSS does give you a *far* better turning circle.

Re arm position - OSS is more aero, but I've had some trouble in the past with ulnar nerve compression in one elbow, so USS suits me a treat. Yeah, it is a bit of a pain wheeling the thing around, having to stoop to steer, but I might not need to do so with the Streetmachine or Grasshopper, which are a bit higher.

I wouldn't get *too* hung up on 'normal' sized wheels - lower means its easier to get your foot down, and whilst they're wobblier to begin with (short vs longer pedulum effectively I guess), if you do come off it's not so far to fall (and less likely to bust a collarbone). Even the mid/lowish Speedmachine puts me at about the same height as the driver of something like an mx5.

Length *might* be an issue - I can't get my speedmachine (26" rear) into the OH's A4 Avant (hatchaback/estate-like thing) without removing mudguard/rack* or boom, whereas a 20" wheeled challenge Hurricane will fit (*some rack bolts are the swingarm pivot bolts too, so I'm not in a hurry to whip 'em out without a torque wrench and threadlock to hand...)

London Recumbents - very helpful indeed, sited in Dulwich Park so you can ride around without traffic I went along to try a Hurricane, so they got me on various tillered things with various levels of recline/tiller offset so that the Hurri wasn't too much of a shock They do hire, but I'm pretty sure since I was looking to buy I didn't pay a hire fee. Might be a bit limited to what trial machines they have, tho'
Kevin at Dtek is also very helful - he'll do a half day hire/fee session IIRC and you..ahem, your friend..would get to try all sorts of configurations, LWB, SWB, OSS, USS..

It really is a case of trying several things without too much preconception (other than any health issues, since that's how some of us come to get one), and see what suits - even my USS machine felt weird to one of the bods at Bikefix, since she was so used to tiller steering.

[DrMekon]

As someone who is bike-curious rather than a bent-rider< I can wholeheartedly recommend Kevin's half-day demo thing. I tried everything from old-lady friendly SWBs to short-track race-worthy trikes.

I came away having really enjoyed the ICE sprint and the Bacchetta Strada. Of the umpteen I tried, only a couple felt like duds. Definitely don't write off the trikes - there's little that comes close to throwing a low trike into a corner and peddling as hard as you can to provoke a bit of slip angle whilst you are on two wheels.

[henshaw11]

Definitely don't write off the trikes - there's little that comes close to throwing a low trike into a corner and peddling as hard as you can to provoke a bit of slip angle whilst you are on two wheels.

Indeed - I started looking at 'bents years ago (via an article in cycling+), and went on a "trike' weekend run by Recumbent UK magazine - excellent fun, human powered karts !
The practicality of filtering through stationary traffic near me meant that something more driver-eye level was more practical *IMO* (ymmv...)

But there is always n+1...

One surprise was trying an old Linear (USS, LWB) - very easy and relaxed to ride, but bloomin' long..

[Kim]

Pretty sure the Grasshopper can be swapped between types, probably the Streetmachine too - Kim ?

I believe it can.  Probably best done by people with less sturdy thighs than me, though, as the Streetmachine geometry puts the headset right between them.

OSS does give you a *far* better turning circle.

Don't get too hung up on that though, even with the steering on my Streetmachine locking out against my hips (rather than the seat), it can still do a U-turn in a reasonable sized road.  I'd argue that much more that that is only really useful for wheeling the bike, or for three-wheelers.

Re arm position - OSS is more aero, but I've had some trouble in the past with ulnar nerve compression in one elbow, so USS suits me a treat. Yeah, it is a bit of a pain wheeling the thing around, having to stoop to steer, but I might not need to do so with the Streetmachine or Grasshopper, which are a bit higher.

Wheeling a Streetmachine around is best done with one hand on the top of the seat and the other by your side.  The steering geometry is stable enough that it can be leaned to steer.  The only issue comes when you need to apply a brake when walking downhill, which means leaning over and back pain if it's anything longer than the ramps at Euston station.

Pushing it up a double-bastard hill is best done from behind the seat with forearms resting on the rear rack, again without touching the bars.  This enables you to get enough traction in cycling shoes, which is surprisingly hard from the side.  If I were to go touring in an area with a lot of double-bastard hills, I'd seriously consider fitting a rear wheel parking brake that was accessible from this position.

For everything else, there's the now legendary 19" gear.

[henshaw11]

Don't get too hung up on that though, even with the steering on my Strretmachine locking out against my hips (rather than the seat), it can still do a U-turn in a reasonable sized road.  I'd argue that much more that that is only really useful for wheeling the bike, or for three-wheelers.

I agree, it isn't in practice a huge issue, tho' there's been the odd occasion (riding) where I've had to take several bites (pushing I often just pick up the back end and lift it round).
Or mebbe that's just me being a bit crap at full-lock turns, when I was trying out a Hurricane I spent quite a while going for ever-tightening ones, whcih I've never really bothered practising on the SPM

[Euan Uzami]

When I went to d-tek, there were two trikes - a TRICE, and a green one (streetmachine?) - the trice looked a lot better and more simple as it had handlebars but strangely I was surprised to find the green one which had a sort of 'tiller' with a bar-end shifter on the end, which you steered with, seemed to have infinitely better handling as the steering was a lot more progressive.
I came away with the impression however that they felt quite slow, I had expected that with being so close to the ground it would feel like you are going quite fast, but in reality the opposite seemed to be the case.

[Kim]

I agree, it isn't in practice a huge issue, tho' there's been the odd occasion (riding) where I've had to take several bites (pushing I often just pick up the back end and lift it round).

I'll add that with USS it's trivial to stand up, lift the front end of the bike by the bars, and rotate around the contact patch of the rear wheel by sidestepping, without a full dismount.  It's my preferred method for 180 degree turns, as it avoids having to worry about where the boom's going while being aware of what's happening in your blind spot.  It's also better for negotiating a lot of anti-cyclist gates and so on, as you aren't standing beside the bike adding to the width.

[Kim]

When I went to d-tek, there were two trikes - a TRICE, and a green one (streetmachine?) - the trice looked a lot better and more simple as it had handlebars but strangely I was surprised to find the green one which had a sort of 'tiller' with a bar-end shifter on the end, which you steered with, seemed to have infinitely better handling as the steering was a lot more progressive.

Windcheetah?




The Streetmachine is a bike:




(its even heavier three-wheeled cousin is the Scorpion)

[mrcharly-YHT]

[disclaimer; I don't own a recumbent]

being 'b-curious', I've tried recumbents a few times.
My observations are:

Older machines (such as the HP Spirit) have rubbish handling and steering compared to modern machines.

Riding a 26"-wheeled beast is foolish if you have short legs. If you do this in front of spectators, you will cause much amusement when you stop.

Don't ride clipped in on your first go (see above).

[Kim]

Riding a 26"-wheeled beast is foolish if you have short legs. If you do this in front of spectators, you will cause much amusement when you stop.

+1 to that.  If you don't have the body shape of a stereotypical Dutchman, you can eliminate an awful lot of designs as unfit for purpose on this basis alone.  There's also a fuzzy grey area between what you *can* ride and what you'd actually want to own, where you can just about get a foot down, as long as there isn't a slope.  Because eventually, there's going to be a slope.  With wet gravel on it.

Don't ride clipped in on your first go (see above).

I'd go so far as to say don't pedal on your first go, if the bike geometry allows for it:  When I teach people how to ride the streetmachine, I start off with them sitting upright on the front of the seat, and use hobby-horse propulsion until they've got a feel for how the steering works.  When the balance doesn't work as expected, they can simply put a foot flat on the ground to break the fall.  Then I have them do the same thing lying back in the seat (some people have to re-learn the balance in the new position), and once they've got the hang of that, move to pedalling from a rolling start.  Only then do I suggest they try pushing off with the pedals.  Using this technique, even those who've struggled to get the hang of it have managed to avoid a proper fall.

Obviously that's harder to do with other bike shapes.

[jogler]

If you your friend finds himself in the vicinity of Stoke-on-Trent he can try either my s.w.b. 2 wheel  'bent or Marj's 3 wheel Trice adventurer.

[Kim]

Hmm.  Maybe we could organise a YACF darkside can-I-have-a-go-mate session?  Get lots of interesting bikes, trikes, cakes and so on in one place, preferably somewhere with some nice traffic-free gently sloping tarmac, so people can have an opportunity to play?

[jogler]

Stafford?
Easy access via road & rail.
The Stafford 2 Newport trail is an ex railway so doesn't have anything greater than mild inclines.
All sorts of food/drink options in town & en route.

[Kim]

Problem with ex-railways is they're a bit, well, linear.  Half the fun of playing with 'bents is throwing (or slowly going wide while trying not to scream) them round corners.

Also, I'm not sure inexperienced riders mixing with walkers/dogs/children in a confined space is necessarily a good idea.

(My point about mild inclines was that they're useful for teaching people to ride compared to dead flat, where bikes must be actively propelled as well as balanced, rather than "hills are bad", though I suppose that also applies.)

[mrcharly-YHT]

You need wobble room.

[jogler]

How about....
Stafford onto Milford Common.That's where we had lunch at the Little Fawn cafe on Crinkly's Cannock Chase camping weekend.

[Tigerbiten]

I came away with the impression however that they felt quite slow, I had expected that with being so close to the ground it would feel like you are going quite fast, but in reality the opposite seemed to be the case.

You'll be suprised how slow +50 mph can feel when everything is rock stable ............