Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Health & Fitness => Topic started by: andyoxon on 12 February, 2019, 06:17:19 pm
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Mobile phones are supposedly 'dirtier than toilet seats', being touched in all situations, multiple times a day. So how often do you disinfect your mobiles, and do you eat finger snacks while using it? ;)
Personally, I take the mobile bump case off for a clean, only now and again...
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I don't have a smartphone.
I don't sanitise my phone.
David does not sanitise his iPhone.
Neither of us is wedded to our phone like some folk are.
I think if I had a smartphone and still worked in a hospital, I would try to wipe the screen with an injection wipe (isopropyl alcohol & chlorhexidine) every day.
Injection wipes clean specs and screens, restart ballpoints, remove stains and more...
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+1 for injection wipes. Screen[1] cleaner of choice in my parents' household.
I occasionally give my phone a squirt of IPA if I've got the screen greasy. I reckon anything handled by humans is crawling in bacteria anyway, and toilets make a poor comparison because people massively overestimate how dirty they are.
Ob-xkcd:
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/keyboards_are_disgusting.png) (https://xkcd.com/237/)
[1] Of course in those days it were nowt but CRTs...
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Toilet seats often get a chance to cool and dry between uses.
Phones get spat on, pawed many times and oft, and stored in warm, moist pockets or pouches.
The world is full of bugs and most post little problem to those with intact skin and a functioning immune system.
It's worth reducing one's general bug count by appropriate hand-washing etc.
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And we have this:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/feb/11/germs-are-not-real-fox-news-host-pete-hegseth
::-)
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Humans have survived far dirtier things than mobile phones.
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Injection wipes clean specs...
I may have had to return a pair of glasses after the coating came off
I can't think how that happened
(hides sterets...) ::-)
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Humans have survived far dirtier things than mobile phones.
Tell that to 2/3 of the population of Golgafrincham.
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If it's your own phone, why does it matter? It's only your own germs, if any. As long as no one else uses it.
I bought a couple of secondhand phones in excellent and clean condition recently, I gave them a quick clean with a damp cloth and I use one of them everyday and it hasn't worried me one bit.
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Humans have survived far dirtier things than mobile phones.
Tell that to 2/3 of the population of Golgafrincham.
We used to have telephone sanitsers where I last worked. If you happened to be on the phone when they turned up, they'd sanitise your face. :sick:
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If it's your own phone, why does it matter? It's only your own germs, if any. As long as no one else uses it.
I bought a couple of secondhand phones in excellent and clean condition recently, I gave them a quick clean with a damp cloth and I use one of them everyday and it hasn't worried me one bit.
If you never touch or kiss anyone else, nor prepare food for others, that might be fair....
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I am given to understand that Jews were burnt at stake for witchcraft in the Middle Ages.
They were in the habit of washing their hands:
when getting out of bed
before food
after toilet
after touching feet and shoes.
They didn't suffer Plague like some compatriots.
Just saying...
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Humans have survived far dirtier things than mobile phones.
Indeed, some survived childbirth and surgery before Semmelweiss and Lister...
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And we have this:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/feb/11/germs-are-not-real-fox-news-host-pete-hegseth
::-)
Hasn't washed his hands in how many years? :o :sick:
That's just anti-social - in fact, there is one use of pervasive CCTV with facial recognition that I could get behind and that's a system that sounds a klaxon and flashes a GBFO light over the door to the facilities if someone uses them without washing their hands*. :demon:
https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/28/poo-found-on-every-mcdonalds-touchscreen-tested-8178486/
* H/T Gary Larson: https://holdyourhorse.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/a72a80fd9c449fda51c0931d3387a35d.jpg
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https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/28/poo-found-on-every-mcdonalds-touchscreen-tested-8178486/
If you're eating McDonalds, you're not going to be worried about poo on the touchscreen.
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I am given to understand that Jews were burnt at stake for witchcraft in the Middle Ages.
They were in the habit of washing their hands:
when getting out of bed
before food
after toilet
after touching feet and shoes.
They didn't suffer Plague like some compatriots.
Just saying...
And did they shake hands? Doing namaskara rather than shaking hands is sometimes cited as an Indian hygiene habit.
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I am given to understand that Jews were burnt at stake for witchcraft in the Middle Ages.
They were in the habit of washing their hands:
when getting out of bed
before food
after toilet
after touching feet and shoes.
They didn't suffer Plague like some compatriots.
Just saying...
And did they shake hands? Doing namaskara rather than shaking hands is sometimes cited as an Indian hygiene habit.
Don't know. Women were seen as potentially menstrually unclean and never touched by men. Don't know if men touched each other.
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And we have this:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/feb/11/germs-are-not-real-fox-news-host-pete-hegseth
::-)
Hasn't washed his hands in how many years? :o :sick:
That's just anti-social - in fact, there is one use of pervasive CCTV with facial recognition that I could get behind and that's a system that sounds a klaxon and flashes a GBFO light over the door to the facilities if someone uses them without washing their hands*. :demon:
https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/28/poo-found-on-every-mcdonalds-touchscreen-tested-8178486/
* H/T Gary Larson: https://holdyourhorse.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/a72a80fd9c449fda51c0931d3387a35d.jpg
He said that either as a joke or as something that's slightly outrageous to get a reaction. Or maybe he really does believe germs don't exist.
Make up your own mind instead of believing everything you read in the "papers" (including the Guardian).
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Humans have survived far dirtier things than mobile phones.
Tell that to 2/3 of the population of Golgafrincham.
We used to have telephone sanitsers where I last worked. If you happened to be on the phone when they turned up, they'd sanitise your face. :sick:
I cleaned my phone at work a few weeks ago and was dismayed by my neighbouring cow-orker's lack of knowledge of the B-Ark ::-)
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Humans have survived far dirtier things than mobile phones.
Tell that to 2/3 of the population of Golgafrincham.
We used to have telephone sanitsers where I last worked. If you happened to be on the phone when they turned up, they'd sanitise your face. :sick:
I cleaned my phone at work a few weeks ago and was dismayed by my neighbouring cow-orker's lack of knowledge of the B-Ark ::-)
Or 'Great Britain' as it's now known...
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Humans have survived far dirtier things than mobile phones.
Tell that to 2/3 of the population of Golgafrincham.
We used to have telephone sanitsers where I last worked. If you happened to be on the phone when they turned up, they'd sanitise your face. :sick:
We had a cleaner at one place I worked who was like that. She sanitised phones, keyboards, screens, everything. Didn't matter if people were using them or not. Would spray and wipe a keyboard while someone was typing, without warning. More than one person lost, or had a load of work wrecked because her cleaning cloth descended on the keyboard. Calls would be cut off because she'd sprayed and wiped the telephone keypad.
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And we have this:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/feb/11/germs-are-not-real-fox-news-host-pete-hegseth
::-)
Hasn't washed his hands in how many years? :o :sick:
That's just anti-social - in fact, there is one use of pervasive CCTV with facial recognition that I could get behind and that's a system that sounds a klaxon and flashes a GBFO light over the door to the facilities if someone uses them without washing their hands*. :demon:
https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/28/poo-found-on-every-mcdonalds-touchscreen-tested-8178486/
* H/T Gary Larson: https://holdyourhorse.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/a72a80fd9c449fda51c0931d3387a35d.jpg
He said that either as a joke or as something that's slightly outrageous to get a reaction. Or maybe he really does believe germs don't exist.
Make up your own mind instead of believing everything you read in the "papers" (including the Guardian).
So, you’ve given three options there. Which do you believe?
Also, is it even possible to believe everything in the papers, such is the contrast between different titles?
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Mobile phones are supposedly 'dirtier than toilet seats', being touched in all situations, multiple times a day. So how often do you disinfect your mobiles, and do you eat finger snacks while using it? ;)
Personally, I take the mobile bump case off for a clean, only now and again...
Why did you come to think that germs that live on glass or metal are going to be harmful to you?
SOME germs might cause diseases and typically only in people who are already immunodepressed. The key to staying healthy is not to fight germs, but rather to... ehm... stay healthy ::-)
Your body and all its cavities are perfectly adapted to fight foreign bacteria and that is even before your immune system comes into play. All bacteria that live in your cavities and on your skin are your friends and outcompete "bad bacteria"... it's only when you try to get rid of ALL bacteria from your body that the bad ones are allowed to grow and thrive in the absence of competition, potentially causing disease.
Moral: wash less rather than more and even more importantly, avoid products that claim to kill bacteria and if you can, avoid chemical soaps altogether
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Germs don’t live on glass, they get there from somewhere else. Like E. coli or similar from your arse getting on your hand when you don’t wipe properly, then on the phone when you answer it.
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Germs don’t live on glass, they get there from somewhere else. Like E. coli or similar from your arse getting on your hand when you don’t wipe properly, then on the phone when you answer it.
Technically there is something already wrong with your health, if you get ill out of your own arse, as you say...
On the other hand, there is something wrong if someone elese's arse bugs end up on your phone... ::-)
But all of the above stands... a healthy bacteria population will wipe out any nasty e-coli before it can be harmful
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Mobile phones are supposedly 'dirtier than toilet seats', being touched in all situations, multiple times a day. So how often do you disinfect your mobiles, and do you eat finger snacks while using it? ;)
Personally, I take the mobile bump case off for a clean, only now and again...
Why did you come to think that germs that live on glass or metal are going to be harmful to you?
SOME germs might cause diseases and typically only in people who are already immunodepressed. The key to staying healthy is not to fight germs, but rather to... ehm... stay healthy ::-)
Your body and all its cavities are perfectly adapted to fight foreign bacteria and that is even before your immune system comes into play. All bacteria that live in your cavities and on your skin are your friends and outcompete "bad bacteria"... it's only when you try to get rid of ALL bacteria from your body that the bad ones are allowed to grow and thrive in the absence of competition, potentially causing disease.
Moral: wash less rather than more and even more importantly, avoid products that claim to kill bacteria and if you can, avoid chemical soaps altogether
Bacteria and viruses transfer from surface to surface. One could look on a mobile as a unclean door handle. Yes it's unlikely that one would get some sort of infection, unless a person was immunocompromised, but I know I wouldn't eat a bag of crisps having touched some handles, and before washing my hands. ;)
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The fear of infection is something irrational that we carry forward from the ages when people actually died of infection in numbers.
I wish people were as afraid of junk food as they are of infection... that would probably make a difference to society...
... maybe we'll have to wait another century for that, when obesity won't be an issue anymore, people will be scared of it ::-)
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Bacteria and viruses transfer from surface to surface. One could look on a mobile as a unclean door handle. Yes it's unlikely that one would get some sort of infection, unless a person was immunocompromised, but I know I wouldn't eat a bag of crisps having touched some handles, and before washing my hands. ;)
In many bathrooms it's hard to wash your hands and then not touch the taps[1] (to turn them off) and/or the door handle(s) (to get out) all of which could be touched by people who didn't wash their hands properly or at all.
1. When I worked in catering I was taught to clean the taps whilst my hands were soapy so that they'd be clean(er) when I came to turn off the water. Eventually the hand wash basin taps were changed to be either foot operated or elbow operated.
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1. When I worked in catering I was taught to clean the taps whilst my hands were soapy so that they'd be clean(er) when I came to turn off the water. Eventually the hand wash basin taps were changed to be either foot operated or elbow operated.
I did a food hygiene course last year and their suggestion was to turn the taps off with a paper towel. Doesn't work with hot air dryers of course.
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The fear of infection is something irrational that we carry forward from the ages when people actually died of infection in numbers.
I wish people were as afraid of junk food as they are of infection... that would probably make a difference to society...
... maybe we'll have to wait another century for that, when obesity won't be an issue anymore, people will be scared of it ::-)
They will die in numbers again, when most atibiotics are no longer useful.
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SOME germs might cause diseases and typically only in people who are already immunodepressed. The key to staying healthy is not to fight germs, but rather to... ehm... stay healthy ::-)
No. Sewers were the greatest public health invention of all time, with vaccination a close second. Getting rid of the germs through basic hygiene works, and is necessary for healthy humans to live at any kind of urban population density.
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The fear of infection is something irrational that we carry forward from the ages when people actually died of infection in numbers.
I wish people were as afraid of junk food as they are of infection... that would probably make a difference to society...
... maybe we'll have to wait another century for that, when obesity won't be an issue anymore, people will be scared of it ::-)
They will die in numbers again, when most atibiotics are no longer useful.
We are far more likely to see the end of democracies than we are to witness the return of TBC. There isn't a finite number of antibiotics... the reason we are running out is because it is not economically viable for Big Pharma to research new ones... with tax cuts and incentives they will return to churn out new antibiotics... especially so if there are more infections and the market becomes more lucrative
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No. Sewers were the greatest public health invention of all time, with vaccination a close second. Getting rid of the germs works.
Agree, on a grand scale bugs can be seriously harmful... those on the mobile phone screen are not
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I don't think you need billions of bugs to infect a victim. The surface of a mobile phone is plenty - as is a clammy hand-shake.
It makes sense to focus public spending on the sewers, of course - but that doesn't mean that other hygiene measures are a waste of time.
And as for your obesity "argument"; a healthy society would be one that addresses obesity AND infectious diseases. Surely?
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And as for your obesity "argument"; a healthy society would be one that addresses obesity AND infectious diseases. Surely?
I totally agree, resources should not be so limited, but when you have up to 50% of the population dying early due to overweight related diseases and maybe 1% dying early due to infection, where should you put your limited resources?
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Perhaps the reason for infection killing only 1% of us is because people actually manage their own basic hygiene?
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The fear of infection is something irrational that we carry forward from the ages when people actually died of infection in numbers.
I wish people were as afraid of junk food as they are of infection... that would probably make a difference to society...
... maybe we'll have to wait another century for that, when obesity won't be an issue anymore, people will be scared of it ::-)
They will die in numbers again, when most atibiotics are no longer useful.
We are far more likely to see the end of democracies than we are to witness the return of TBC. There isn't a finite number of antibiotics... the reason we are running out is because it is not economically viable for Big Pharma to research new ones... with tax cuts and incentives they will return to churn out new antibiotics... especially so if there are more infections and the market becomes more lucrative
There is a finite number of antibiotics.
If there wasn't we'd have discovered/invented a shedload more than we have.
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And as for your obesity "argument"; a healthy society would be one that addresses obesity AND infectious diseases. Surely?
I totally agree, resources should not be so limited, but when you have up to 50% of the population dying early due to overweight related diseases and maybe 1% dying early due to infection, where should you put your limited resources?
Currently the answer is simple. You put your limited resources where the public (or shareholders) want you to. This may well mean that significant public health decisions are being made/influenced by those with a vested interest, or limited knowledge.
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There is a finite number of antibiotics.
If there wasn't we'd have discovered/invented a shedload more than we have.
No... that's completely untrue. The reason we are running out is that it costs nearly a billion dollars to come out with a new effective drug and there simply isn't enough market out there for Pfizer or GSK to bother.
So either the state does the research and then licences the drug or you give an incentive to big pharma to make that kind of investment
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Perhaps the reason for infection killing only 1% of us is because people actually manage their own basic hygiene?
No, it's mainly down to the above mentioned sewers, better standards of living, better accomodation, better regulations about food hygiene etc...
People washing their hands or not makes zero difference, except in some professional environments, like professional kitchens
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There is a finite number of antibiotics.
If there wasn't we'd have discovered/invented a shedload more than we have.
No... that's completely untrue. The reason we are running out is that it costs nearly a billion dollars to come out with a new effective drug and there simply isn't enough market out there for Pfizer or GSK to bother.
So either the state does the research and then licences the drug or you give an incentive to big pharma to make that kind of investment
I'm sorry, but if something is not finite, it is infinite. If it is infinite, then there is no end, ever.
Given that chemicals are made up from a limited number of useful elements, (therefore not infinite) and that antibiotics are a very specific type of chemical molecule, they are finite.
The reason that they are over a billion dollars (or whatever) is because the low hanging fruit has been taken, and abused to the extent of becoming less effective or ineffective. There's no low hanging fruit left, and it costs a lot to climb to the top of a fruit tree that may have no fruit.
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I rest my case...
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I rest my case...
Hardly.
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No... that's completely untrue. The reason we are running out is that it costs nearly a billion dollars to come out with a new effective drug and there simply isn't enough market out there for Pfizer or GSK to bother.
So either the state does the research and then licences the drug or you give an incentive to big pharma to make that kind of investment
Antibiotics are essentially a finite clinical resource, owing to a number of factors, not least increasing resistance, and the lack of new antibiotics (non-toxic to humans) being discovered....
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I rest my case...
'Infinite'
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
There are a limited number of ways of arranging the atoms to make an antibiotic. That means there are a finite number of antibiotics.
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I rest my case...
'Infinite'
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
There are a limited number of ways of arranging the atoms to make an antibiotic. That means there are a finite number of antibiotics.
I teach Chemistry at one of the top 10 Universities in the country. I have done research for 15 years of my life, so I don't need a lesson on how atoms arrange, please. This is not the point
The point is economics... the reason why hardly any antibiotic has been "discovered" over the past 10-20 years is simply because ot enough resources have been put into it... the pharmaceutical companies need a return for their huge investment and a new antibiotic to be used sparingly in those MRSA cases where nothing else works is not an incentive.
There are two ways to break the deadlock
1) The government pays for research and development
2) the government offers even more tax breaks for research and development
If you are not prepared to accept that drug discovery is simply down to money and instead believe that all the antibiotics have been discovered already, then fine, it is your prerogative, but I have no desire to discuss with anyone who has these medieval beliefs. We are simply too far apart to even talk
Hence my "I rest my case"
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You've "rested" it twice now - could you consider leaving it rested?
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I rest my case...
'Infinite'
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
There are a limited number of ways of arranging the atoms to make an antibiotic. That means there are a finite number of antibiotics.
I teach Chemistry at one of the top 10 Universities in the country. I have done research for 15 years of my life, so I don't need a lesson on how atoms arrange, please. This is not the point
The point is economics... the reason why hardly any antibiotic has been "discovered" over the past 10-20 years is simply because ot enough resources have been put into it... the pharmaceutical companies need a return for their huge investment and a new antibiotic to be used sparingly in those MRSA cases where nothing else works is not an incentive.
There are two ways to break the deadlock
1) The government pays for research and development
2) the government offers even more tax breaks for research and development
If you are not prepared to accept that drug discovery is simply down to money and instead believe that all the antibiotics have been discovered already, then fine, it is your prerogative, but I have no desire to discuss with anyone who has these medieval beliefs. We are simply too far apart to even talk
Hence my "I rest my case"
You are the person who used the word 'infinite'.
I have not claimed that all antibiotics have been discovered. Don't attribute something to me that I haven't said.
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Antibiotic resistance is A Thing.
Some bugs will develop resistance to almost anything and everything.
Some resistant strains will not have developed and multiplied yet and therefore suitable antibiotics will not yet have been developed.
It's a cat and mouse game and the development of resistant strains is best limited by non-antibiotic means like hand-washing, increasing bed-spacing and reducing bed occupancy in hospitals, basic hygiene and scrupulous cleanliness etc.
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It's a cat and mouse game and the development of resistant strains is best limited by non-antibiotic means like hand-washing, increasing bed-spacing and reducing bed occupancy in hospitals, basic hygiene and scrupulous cleanliness etc.
It is fairly depressing that increasing hospital infections are correlated with the demise of (widely spaced) Nightingale wards, outsourced cleaning et al.
It is true that obsessive disinfection is counterproductive - we need a varied gut flora. I wouldn't think twice about eating something I'd dropped in the middle of the woods, odd mouthful of seawater etc,.
(Not a bacteria, but) e.g. norovirus is extremely widespread and Not Fun. I definitely wash my hands before eating if I've been anywhere public, on the bus, around the hospital etc.
Now if we could somehow reintroduce the public health message of not spitting in the street... TB is back. It's antibiotic resistant. And that is Very Not Fun.
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I'm not sure I'd be happy taking a mouthful of the seawater anywhere near occupied land.
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Chemical disinfection is not really much use. Some bugs LOVE weak chlorhexidine.
Physical removal of bug food, heat, UV light & dilution an ventilation reduce the number of bugs so many can fight them without antibiotics.
Bugs should have a 'hostile environment'.
Mobile phones can have anything but for the bugs.
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To be fair to mobile phones, they have the overwhelming advantage from an infection control standpoint that they're normally only handled by one person.
I'd worry more about, say, meece on shared computers.
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Good point Kim, until folk show photos to friends, who MUST blow up bits...
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I feel sorry for those germs that used to get around by bus. What with cutbacks they are becoming less mobile week on week.
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The vast majority of germs won't hurt you and are mostly beneficial. A very small number are pathogenic. Generally, outside of environments where people might have compromised immunity, we're better off being exposed to them.
This I explained to the delightful Vivian in the Apple Store as I disrobed my iPhone of its case to reveal a rather grubby phone.
Antibiotic resistance is simply evolution in action, so creationists are exempt.
The reasons for antibiotic resistance are primarily poor practice by medical staff, a lack of joined-up approaches, non-adherence by patients, poor healthcare systems in many countries, along with industrial use in animal feed. Vast quantities of front-line antibiotics are fed to pigs creating a huge reservoir of resistance genes.
There is no shortage of potential antibiotic chemicals (because of that same evolution) – perhaps not infinite though – and, of course, the majority won't make safe or useful medications, after all you could drink bleach, it's a very effective antibiotic. The reasons why so few have come to market are various – drug development is, to a degree broken, any business will chase the best revenue opportunities and perhaps that's not the best approach to life-saving pharmaceuticals. And to be fair to drug companies, the cost of bringing a drug to market is HUGE. Any drug is a massively high-risk investment. Also, everything is skewed by the vast sums of money in the US healthcare market (which we can laugh at and shake our heads sadly, but ultimately affects us all). Very few new drugs have come to market in recent decades – large numbers of me-too drugs offering debatably incremental improvements and very expensive risk-reward targeted monoclonals.
And while it's fine to suggest public development, the costs are still HUGE (unless we remove the regulatory burden and liabilities, which we'd also then have to do for businesses) and someone has to pay them. People only tend to worry about the costs of healthcare and treatment when they're sick or know someone who is sick.