Mobile germs...

[andyoxon]

Mobile phones are supposedly 'dirtier than toilet seats', being touched in all situations, multiple times a day.  So how often do you disinfect your mobiles, and do you eat finger snacks while using it?   

Personally, I take the mobile bump case off for a clean, only now and again...

Why did you come to think that germs that live on glass or metal are going to be harmful to you?

SOME germs might cause diseases and typically only in people who are already immunodepressed. The key to staying healthy is not to fight germs, but rather to... ehm... stay healthy 

Your body and all its cavities are perfectly adapted to fight foreign bacteria and that is even before your immune system comes into play. All bacteria that live in your cavities and on your skin are your friends and outcompete "bad bacteria"... it's only when you try to get rid of ALL bacteria from your body that the bad ones are allowed to grow and thrive in the absence of competition, potentially causing disease.

Moral: wash less rather than more and even more importantly, avoid products that claim to kill bacteria and if you can, avoid chemical soaps altogether

Bacteria and viruses transfer from surface to surface.  One could look on a mobile as a unclean door handle.  Yes it's unlikely that one would get some sort of infection, unless a person was immunocompromised, but I know I wouldn't eat a bag of crisps having touched some handles, and before washing my hands.   

[whosatthewheel]

The fear of infection is something irrational that we carry forward from the ages when people actually died of infection in numbers.

I wish people were as afraid of junk food as they are of infection... that would probably make a difference to society...

... maybe we'll have to wait another century for that, when obesity won't be an issue anymore, people will be scared of it 

[Greenbank]

Bacteria and viruses transfer from surface to surface.  One could look on a mobile as a unclean door handle.  Yes it's unlikely that one would get some sort of infection, unless a person was immunocompromised, but I know I wouldn't eat a bag of crisps having touched some handles, and before washing my hands.   

In many bathrooms it's hard to wash your hands and then not touch the taps[1] (to turn them off) and/or the door handle(s) (to get out) all of which could be touched by people who didn't wash their hands properly or at all.

1. When I worked in catering I was taught to clean the taps whilst my hands were soapy so that they'd be clean(er) when I came to turn off the water. Eventually the hand wash basin taps were changed to be either foot operated or elbow operated.

[SteveC]

1. When I worked in catering I was taught to clean the taps whilst my hands were soapy so that they'd be clean(er) when I came to turn off the water. Eventually the hand wash basin taps were changed to be either foot operated or elbow operated.

I did a food hygiene course last year and their suggestion was to turn the taps off with a paper towel. Doesn't work with hot air dryers of course.

[Jaded]

The fear of infection is something irrational that we carry forward from the ages when people actually died of infection in numbers.

I wish people were as afraid of junk food as they are of infection... that would probably make a difference to society...

... maybe we'll have to wait another century for that, when obesity won't be an issue anymore, people will be scared of it 

They will die in numbers again, when most atibiotics are no longer useful.

[Kim]

SOME germs might cause diseases and typically only in people who are already immunodepressed. The key to staying healthy is not to fight germs, but rather to... ehm... stay healthy 

No.  Sewers were the greatest public health invention of all time, with vaccination a close second.  Getting rid of the germs through basic hygiene works, and is necessary for healthy humans to live at any kind of urban population density.

[whosatthewheel]

The fear of infection is something irrational that we carry forward from the ages when people actually died of infection in numbers.

I wish people were as afraid of junk food as they are of infection... that would probably make a difference to society...

... maybe we'll have to wait another century for that, when obesity won't be an issue anymore, people will be scared of it 

They will die in numbers again, when most atibiotics are no longer useful.

We are far more likely to see the end of democracies than we are to witness the return of TBC. There isn't a finite number of antibiotics... the reason we are running out is because it is not economically viable for Big Pharma to research new ones... with tax cuts and incentives they will return to churn out new antibiotics... especially so if there are more infections and the market becomes more lucrative

[whosatthewheel]

No.  Sewers were the greatest public health invention of all time, with vaccination a close second.  Getting rid of the germs works.

Agree, on a grand scale bugs can be seriously harmful... those on the mobile phone screen are not

[mattc]

I don't think you need billions of bugs to infect a victim. The surface of a mobile phone is plenty - as is a clammy hand-shake.

It makes sense to focus public spending on the sewers, of course - but that doesn't mean that other hygiene measures are a waste of time.

And as for your obesity "argument"; a healthy society would be one that addresses obesity AND infectious diseases. Surely?

[whosatthewheel]

And as for your obesity "argument"; a healthy society would be one that addresses obesity AND infectious diseases. Surely?

I totally agree, resources should not be so limited, but when you have up to 50% of the population dying early due to overweight related diseases and maybe 1% dying early due to infection, where should you put your limited resources?

[L CC]

Perhaps the reason for infection killing only 1% of us is because people actually manage their own basic hygiene?

[Jaded]

The fear of infection is something irrational that we carry forward from the ages when people actually died of infection in numbers.

I wish people were as afraid of junk food as they are of infection... that would probably make a difference to society...

... maybe we'll have to wait another century for that, when obesity won't be an issue anymore, people will be scared of it 

They will die in numbers again, when most atibiotics are no longer useful.

We are far more likely to see the end of democracies than we are to witness the return of TBC. There isn't a finite number of antibiotics... the reason we are running out is because it is not economically viable for Big Pharma to research new ones... with tax cuts and incentives they will return to churn out new antibiotics... especially so if there are more infections and the market becomes more lucrative

There is a finite number of antibiotics.

If there wasn't we'd have discovered/invented a shedload more than we have.

[Jaded]

And as for your obesity "argument"; a healthy society would be one that addresses obesity AND infectious diseases. Surely?

I totally agree, resources should not be so limited, but when you have up to 50% of the population dying early due to overweight related diseases and maybe 1% dying early due to infection, where should you put your limited resources?

Currently the answer is simple. You put your limited resources where the public (or shareholders) want you to. This may well mean that significant public health decisions are being made/influenced by those with a vested interest, or limited knowledge.

[whosatthewheel]

There is a finite number of antibiotics.

If there wasn't we'd have discovered/invented a shedload more than we have.

No... that's completely untrue. The reason we are running out is that it costs nearly a billion dollars to come out with a new effective drug and there simply isn't enough market out there for Pfizer or GSK to bother.
So either the state does the research and then licences the drug or you give an incentive to big pharma to make that kind of investment

[whosatthewheel]

Perhaps the reason for infection killing only 1% of us is because people actually manage their own basic hygiene?

No, it's mainly down to the above mentioned sewers, better standards of living, better accomodation, better regulations about food hygiene etc...

People washing their hands or not makes zero difference, except in some professional environments, like professional kitchens

[Jaded]

There is a finite number of antibiotics.

If there wasn't we'd have discovered/invented a shedload more than we have.

No... that's completely untrue. The reason we are running out is that it costs nearly a billion dollars to come out with a new effective drug and there simply isn't enough market out there for Pfizer or GSK to bother.
So either the state does the research and then licences the drug or you give an incentive to big pharma to make that kind of investment

I'm sorry, but if something is not finite, it is infinite. If it is infinite, then there is no end, ever.

Given that chemicals are made up from a limited number of useful elements, (therefore not infinite) and that antibiotics are a very specific type of chemical molecule, they are finite.

The reason that they are over a billion dollars (or whatever) is because the low hanging fruit has been taken, and abused to the extent of becoming less effective or ineffective. There's no low hanging fruit left, and it costs a lot to climb to the top of a fruit tree that may have no fruit.

[whosatthewheel]

I rest my case...

[Jaded]

I rest my case...

Hardly.

[andyoxon]

No... that's completely untrue. The reason we are running out is that it costs nearly a billion dollars to come out with a new effective drug and there simply isn't enough market out there for Pfizer or GSK to bother.
So either the state does the research and then licences the drug or you give an incentive to big pharma to make that kind of investment

Antibiotics are essentially a finite clinical resource, owing to a number of factors, not least increasing resistance, and the lack of new antibiotics (non-toxic to humans) being discovered....

[mrcharly-YHT]

I rest my case...

'Infinite'
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

There are a limited number of ways of arranging the atoms to make an antibiotic. That means there are a finite number of antibiotics.

[whosatthewheel]

I rest my case...

'Infinite'
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

There are a limited number of ways of arranging the atoms to make an antibiotic. That means there are a finite number of antibiotics.

I teach Chemistry at one of the top 10 Universities in the country. I have done research for 15 years of my life, so I don't need a lesson on how atoms arrange, please. This is not the point

The point is economics... the reason why hardly any antibiotic has been "discovered" over the past 10-20 years is simply because ot enough resources have been put into it... the pharmaceutical companies need a return for their huge investment and a new antibiotic to be used sparingly in those MRSA cases where nothing else works is not an incentive.

There are two ways to break the deadlock

1) The government pays for research and development

2) the government offers even more tax breaks for research and development

If you are not prepared to accept that drug discovery is simply down to money and instead believe that all the antibiotics have been discovered already, then fine, it is your prerogative, but I have no desire to discuss with anyone who has these medieval beliefs. We are simply too far apart to even talk

Hence my "I rest my case"

[mattc]

You've "rested" it twice now - could you consider leaving it rested?

[mrcharly-YHT]

I rest my case...

'Infinite'
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

There are a limited number of ways of arranging the atoms to make an antibiotic. That means there are a finite number of antibiotics.

I teach Chemistry at one of the top 10 Universities in the country. I have done research for 15 years of my life, so I don't need a lesson on how atoms arrange, please. This is not the point

The point is economics... the reason why hardly any antibiotic has been "discovered" over the past 10-20 years is simply because ot enough resources have been put into it... the pharmaceutical companies need a return for their huge investment and a new antibiotic to be used sparingly in those MRSA cases where nothing else works is not an incentive.

There are two ways to break the deadlock

1) The government pays for research and development

2) the government offers even more tax breaks for research and development

If you are not prepared to accept that drug discovery is simply down to money and instead believe that all the antibiotics have been discovered already, then fine, it is your prerogative, but I have no desire to discuss with anyone who has these medieval beliefs. We are simply too far apart to even talk

Hence my "I rest my case"

You are the person who used the word 'infinite'.

I have not claimed that all antibiotics have been discovered. Don't attribute something to me that I haven't said.

[hellymedic]

Antibiotic resistance is A Thing.
Some bugs will develop resistance to almost anything and everything.
Some resistant strains will not have developed and multiplied yet and therefore suitable antibiotics will not yet have been developed.

It's a cat and mouse game and the development of resistant strains is best limited by non-antibiotic means like hand-washing, increasing bed-spacing and reducing bed occupancy in hospitals, basic hygiene and scrupulous cleanliness etc.

[IanN]

It's a cat and mouse game and the development of resistant strains is best limited by non-antibiotic means like hand-washing, increasing bed-spacing and reducing bed occupancy in hospitals, basic hygiene and scrupulous cleanliness etc.

It is fairly depressing that increasing hospital infections are correlated with the demise of (widely spaced) Nightingale wards, outsourced cleaning et al.

It is true that obsessive disinfection is counterproductive - we need a varied gut flora. I wouldn't think twice about eating something I'd dropped in the middle of the woods, odd mouthful of seawater etc,.

(Not a bacteria, but) e.g. norovirus is extremely widespread and Not Fun. I definitely wash my hands before eating if I've been anywhere public, on the bus, around the hospital etc.

Now if we could somehow reintroduce the public health message of not spitting in the street...   TB is back. It's antibiotic resistant. And that is Very Not Fun.