Author Topic: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X  (Read 8953 times)

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« on: 17 November, 2009, 10:16:55 pm »
A short one in the dark, but a test nevertheless.

This thing should probably come with a health warning, because it will give you The Fear.  On the other hand, it really is fun, in a way unlike any other bike transmission I've tried.

First things first - make sure it's adjusted properly before riding, and run the cable bare as much as possible.  You do NOT want to find the neutral between "1" and "2", and an old-fashioned trigger might have been better than the nice, but potentially in-betweeny bar-end shifter.

I put it in middle gear (63") to start off with.  It feels almost the same as a normal fixie, albeit one with a fairly slack chain.  The bike doesn't feel any heavier than with the Goldtec track hub, which surprised me.  Then the weirdness happens.  You shift gear and your cadence changes, with the pedals suddenly speeding up.  Eek.  Now I was in a 53" gear, which is really, really low for fixed.  This is slightly grindy but it will probably run in over the first couple of hundred miles.  It's nice to climb hills on fixed without having to stand on the pedals, and headwinds suddenly cease to be an issue.

Then I got it onto a long downhill and put it in the top gear, which is 84" in this case.  This is direct drive and is completely silent.  I overtook another couple of cyclists in the dark, got to the roundabout and changed down to the 52" gear again.  Going down from "3" to "1" in one sweep is extremely weird because of the sudden huge increase in cadence; now I know what a car engine feels like when it's being driven by my mother.  On the other hand, I could effectively leg-brake on steep hills by going down through the gears, just as in a car.  The lowest gear allows the bike to be held on gradients where I'd normally need the brake to avoid running away.

I half-climbed the steepest hill in the village and nothing slipped or broke.  Then I came home again, giving it a bit of a whizz in top gear again when I picked up a headwind.  The ratios are actually well-chosen, although too wide for time-trialling (I'll stick it in direct drive and leave it there, just using the other gears to warm up and get to the start without plugging along at 50rpm like normal).

I like it more than I thought I would.  It would be nice if it had zero lash, but I suspect it's the minimum achievable considering what's going on inside the hub.   It has no "purity" like a proper fixed gear; this is something you ride for fun, because you want gears but don't want to run a rear brake or because you have too many hills for one ratio.  It is, however, not an easy or novice option, because this will bite you even harder than a normal fix if you don't treat it with respect.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #1 on: 17 November, 2009, 10:20:53 pm »
Cool.  Thanks for being the Forum Guinea Pig ;D

Lash - how bad is it?  Really?

Changing gears on the go - how hard is it?  Could it be set up with a trigger to avoid the *gulp* neutral issue?

Getting there...

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #2 on: 17 November, 2009, 10:27:32 pm »
No - different cable pull to the other 3-speeds.  A 5-speed trigger, if they exist, *might* work.  I never got neutral when riding, but I was careful to shift crisply.  Lash is not bad enough to completely ruin the "flywheel effect" when climbing, but the assistance isn't as good as with a proper fixed gear.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #3 on: 18 November, 2009, 03:54:19 am »
A 5-speed trigger, if they exist, *might* work.

AFAIK, they don't.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #4 on: 18 November, 2009, 07:40:20 am »
There is a trigger option but it isn't available just yet.

What spoke lengths did you use Roger? Spokecalc and DT are giving different sizes and a real world example would help chose between them.
[Quote/]Adrian, you're living proof that bandwidth is far too cheap.[/Quote]

Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #5 on: 18 November, 2009, 08:17:37 am »
And lash is?  ???

border-rider

Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #6 on: 18 November, 2009, 08:52:26 am »
The amount the pedals can move with the wheel stationary.  Usually a measure of how slack the chain is on a fixed wheel bike, and so something that feels a bit disconcerting in any great amount.

Chris N

Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #7 on: 18 November, 2009, 08:59:43 am »
Backlash is a more common term.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #8 on: 18 November, 2009, 10:07:34 am »
Is that what Nina Simone was singing about in Backlash Blues? ;D
Getting there...

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #9 on: 18 November, 2009, 10:10:11 am »
I'm really interested in this unit, as I think it is what I want for commuting (mainly flat with the foothills cornplaster of the North Downs kicking up at the end, and occasional horrid slogs into a headwind at the end of the day.

How (based on your extensive opportunity for testing ;) ) do you think it would perform for a commuting purpose?  My ride is rather stop-start, though I do have a couple of stretches where I get up to 35-40kph.
Getting there...

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #10 on: 18 November, 2009, 05:39:25 pm »
There is a trigger option but it isn't available just yet.

What spoke lengths did you use Roger? Spokecalc and DT are giving different sizes and a real world example would help chose between them.

I used 286mm all round, but 284/286 would have been better.  36h Open Pro.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #11 on: 18 November, 2009, 05:40:10 pm »
The amount the pedals can move with the wheel stationary.  Usually a measure of how slack the chain is on a fixed wheel bike, and so something that feels a bit disconcerting in any great amount.

Not that MV has anything at all against SA hubs  :)

Quote from: clarion
How (based on your extensive opportunity for testing Wink ) do you think it would perform for a commuting purpose?  My ride is rather stop-start, though I do have a couple of stretches where I get up to 35-40kph.
The ratios are versatile enough for anything except TTing (where you might as well leave it in top) or mountain climbing.  I am slightly dubious about its ability to exclude water, since the redesigned RH ball ring uses a combined plastic ball cage and contact seal which isn't as foolproof as the old labyrinth affair.  Stripping and regreasing one is something I wouldn't be too afraid of (I have the big tool to open one up), but most people wouldn't go near it.

Until I've given it a good hammering over mixed terrain I can't be sure about its reliability, but if I can't trash it within a month I reckon it's sound.  It's normally very hard to break anything inside an SA hub so it would be a design defect if it did.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #12 on: 18 November, 2009, 06:31:17 pm »
There is a trigger option but it isn't available just yet.

What spoke lengths did you use Roger? Spokecalc and DT are giving different sizes and a real world example would help chose between them.

I used 286mm all round, but 284/286 would have been better.  36h Open Pro.

Thanks
[Quote/]Adrian, you're living proof that bandwidth is far too cheap.[/Quote]

Zoidburg

Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #13 on: 18 November, 2009, 06:38:20 pm »
Report back to us in about...5000 miles.

You early adopter you.

robgul

  • Cycle:End-to-End webmaster
  • cyclist, Cytech accredited mechanic & woodworker
    • Cycle:End-to-End
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #14 on: 01 March, 2010, 09:33:22 am »
The comic has a review this week (25 Feb 10) - pretty scathing of the ratios and "play" in the changing technique etc.   What the review didn't mention was the chainwheel size which has an impact on the gear inches .... it just mentioned gear inches but without the tooth count??

Any further views in the light of real experiences?       

(My 6d* jar is almost full and I was thinking of treating myself to a hub/wheelbuild)

Rob

* that's a 2.5p coin, small silver thing, pre-decimal, to you youngsters out there

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #15 on: 01 March, 2010, 06:04:03 pm »
The Comic wouldn't know where to start with something so esoteric.  They probably think fixed gear died out in the 1950s.

You buy one of these because it's like nothing else; the way your cadence instantaneously changes when you shift gear  :o

The lash isn't bad, and not noticeable when actually riding.  I half hope that it's spectacularly unsuccessful, then I can sell it for ASC money in 40 years' time*  :demon:


*which could go behind the bar at my wake
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

robgul

  • Cycle:End-to-End webmaster
  • cyclist, Cytech accredited mechanic & woodworker
    • Cycle:End-to-End
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #16 on: 01 March, 2010, 06:44:29 pm »
The Comic wouldn't know where to start with something so esoteric.  They probably think fixed gear died out in the 1950s.

You buy one of these because it's like nothing else; the way your cadence instantaneously changes when you shift gear  :o

The lash isn't bad, and not noticeable when actually riding.  I half hope that it's spectacularly unsuccessful, then I can sell it for ASC money in 40 years' time*  :demon:


*which could go behind the bar at my wake

How many teeth do you have on the chainset please?

Rob

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #17 on: 01 March, 2010, 08:24:05 pm »
48, and 15 on the sprocket.  I really need a 14T (or a 52T ring) for TTs.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

robgul

  • Cycle:End-to-End webmaster
  • cyclist, Cytech accredited mechanic & woodworker
    • Cycle:End-to-End
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #18 on: 01 March, 2010, 08:36:20 pm »
48, and 15 on the sprocket.  I really need a 14T (or a 52T ring) for TTs.

So, in "direct drive" (according to Sheldon's calculator for a 700 x 25 tyre) that's about 84" ... is that right?

I now need visit the drawing board to see what I think I can push round on the three options!!

Rob

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #19 on: 01 March, 2010, 08:44:32 pm »
So, in "direct drive" (according to Sheldon's calculator for a 700 x 25 tyre) that's about 84" ... is that right?
That's it...and a 63" middle gear, which is quite nice.  Our TT course is downhill for the first half mile though, and I do slightly better times with a 90" gear because I can get some power down there.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #20 on: 02 April, 2010, 04:25:47 pm »
A little update.  A 14T sprocket proved impossible to get in the UK, so I put a dinnerplate on the front instead:



I also noticed that the hub bearings were REALLY sloppy.  I suspect they adjust them at the factory but don't allow for the fact that the first ride uphill tightens the RH ball ring down hard into the shell and increases the clearance at the axle bearings.  So I adjusted both RH and LH cones using the normal SA procedure, and the false neutrals are now minimal.  I also put a 1mm spacer under the sprocket so the chainline is now millimetre-perfect; there is no chain noise at all.

Finally, I measured the lash at the crank, since I didn't really believe the figure quoted in the Comic.  In middle gear it's 10mm at the pedal spindle, which makes it 3.5o with my 165mm cranks.  It feels no worse than a chain which is in need of a tighten.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Zoidburg

Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #21 on: 02 April, 2010, 05:07:26 pm »
48, and 15 on the sprocket.  I really need a 14T (or a 52T ring) for TTs.

So, in "direct drive" (according to Sheldon's calculator for a 700 x 25 tyre) that's about 84" ... is that right?

I now need visit the drawing board to see what I think I can push round on the three options!!

Rob
If it helps I rode a 75" 1/2 ish on the tunnel ride, thats 43x15.

border-rider

Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #22 on: 03 April, 2010, 05:11:14 pm »

Finally, I measured the lash at the crank, since I didn't really believe the figure quoted in the Comic.  In middle gear it's 10mm at the pedal spindle, which makes it 3.5o with my 165mm cranks.  It feels no worse than a chain which is in need of a tighten.

10 mm ?  I'd not ride a chain that slack.  That would drive me mad on the hub gear.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #23 on: 03 April, 2010, 05:18:11 pm »
I don't think there's any way to avoid lash unless you go to a 2-speed (I'd still like a TF, although the 12-spline sprockets are a real problem since there are hardly any left and I can't find anyone to make them).

AFAIK conventional automatic cars use brake bands to lock the various parts of a lash-free epicyclic transmission and achieve different gears, but that would never work on a bike given the high torque and small size constraints.  There is probably some way to engineer it, but whether anyone would pay for the final product, I don't know.

The beauty of a conventional gear hub is that it can be as sloppy as you like and no-one ever notices, because it freewheels in the other direction  :)
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

border-rider

Re: A real road test of the Sturmey-Archer S3X
« Reply #24 on: 03 April, 2010, 09:53:11 pm »

The beauty of a conventional gear hub is that it can be as sloppy as you like and no-one ever notices, because it freewheels in the other direction  :)

I dunno

The SA ones always felt sloppy to me, and the vast amount of lash before take-up I'm sure adds to the feeling of inefficiency and disconnection.