If a vegan friend popped in to your home, would providing sustenance be a (big) problem?I view it as my responsibility as host to provide something suitable for a guest, provided I've been informed in advance.
I have come across vegans who will not eat anything which may have been in contact with or even near to an animal or part thereof, this includes such things as tins of plum tomatoes which are produced in a factory where meat is also processed. Or the one I knew as a student who would not eat anything if the company which produced it also produced foods with meat in, even if on a different site. How could I be certain that the farm that produced the vegetables I was using didn't also profit from animal husbandry?I'm afraid that is taking hospitality too far in my book. If you're that fussy (for however good a reason) then please don't inflict yourself on others who will probably be trying to do their best.
It strikes me the dairy and egg producers are involved in more wanton animal death than those that produce meat from animals that have grown outdoors to near maturity.50% of all chicks hatched for egg production are macerated or gassed soon after hatching due to the fact that they are born male.
What used to piss me off most was when I went self-catering near Marmande. I realised that, far from the impression you'd get from the restaurants, France is the best place in the world to be a vegan, with fantastic produce easily available.The French have enough trouble coming to terms with the concept of vegetarian never mind vegan.
If I were to become vegetarian, I would also become a vegan. It strikes me the dairy and egg producers are involved in more wanton animal death than those that produce meat from animals that have grown outdoors to near maturity.
If a vegan friend popped in to your home, would providing sustenance be a (big) problem?
It strikes me the dairy and egg producers are involved in more wanton animal death than those that produce meat from animals that have grown outdoors to near maturity.50% of all chicks hatched for egg production are macerated or gassed soon after hatching due to the fact that they are born male.
I have come across vegans who will not eat anything which may have been in contact with or even near to an animal or part thereof, this includes such things as tins of plum tomatoes which are produced in a factory where meat is also processed. Or the one I knew as a student who would not eat anything if the company which produced it also produced foods with meat in, even if on a different site. How could I be certain that the farm that produced the vegetables I was using didn't also profit from animal husbandry?I'm afraid that is taking hospitality too far in my book. If you're that fussy (for however good a reason) then please don't inflict yourself on others who will probably be trying to do their best.
'Ordinary' vegans are quite easy. You can start with beans on toast (no butter) and move up from that.
And as a general rule, if you'd rather raid the kitchen and fend for yourself you're welcome to do so!
As a veggie of 33 years sandwiched around being a vegan for 3 years, I don't think I would find it a practical problem to feed an unannounced vegan appearing on the doorstep. Especially as soya milk is our white liquid sustenance of choice. For me, veggie/veganism isn't quite as binary as it appeared to me when I was 13, but I acknowledge that the guest might have their own reasons for their diet. I've long since given up judging others by what they eat (I'm sure I was an insufferable teenager when it came to The Rules for eating morally).
As a guest turning up at someone else's, I would certainly not expect them to have to make awkward accommodations for my diet. I tend to apologetically say what I don't eat in order to make it clear I wouldn't expect the host to go out of their way to arrange something special. Thankfully most people seem fine with veggie stuff. I think vegan cooking can be a little more challenging for many who are not used to it, and eating out at friends and restaurants was one of the reasons I stopped being vegan.
BTW Feline - most common pestos are not vegan, containing a fair amount of cheese.
BTW Feline - most common pestos are not vegan, containing a fair amount of cheese.
I couldn't do it, though, because of cheese. Cheese rules all.
BTW Feline - most common pestos are not vegan, containing a fair amount of cheese.
Most are not even vegetarian. Of the usual jars, only the organic ones are. Fresh pesto usually is veggie, although not vegan.
It's very easily home made. I've made it with my home grown basil, pine nuts, lemon rind, garlic and extra-virgin olive oil. There's no need to put the Parmesan in when you blend it, just serve it in a separate little bowl for those who want it to add :)
It does sound delicious!It's very easily home made. I've made it with my home grown basil, pine nuts, lemon rind, garlic and extra-virgin olive oil. There's no need to put the Parmesan in when you blend it, just serve it in a separate little bowl for those who want it to add :)
Mmmm! Can I turn up on your doorstep unannounced?
It's very easily home made. I've made it with my home grown basil, pine nuts, lemon rind, garlic and extra-virgin olive oil. There's no need to put the Parmesan in when you blend it, just serve it in a separate little bowl for those who want it to add :)
Mmmm! Can I turn up on your doorstep unannounced?
Vegan spread, soya milk, ice cream, chocolate, gravy, stuffing, sausages are all readily available, and cheap in supermarkets nowadays.
If you care what you eat, why would you eat that? Not being judgmental, I just don't get it.
If you care what you eat, why would you eat that? Not being judgmental, I just don't get it.
It should be more socially acceptable for people to bring their own food if they feel that's a safer/easier way of getting food they can and will eat.
...also we go vegan for certain Chinese Buddhist religious festivals, although this is more to do with tradition than any personal religious belief.Catholicism as practised in Poland involves a fair number of fast days, but "fasting" usually simply means not eating meat for a day.
If you care what you eat, why would you eat that? Not being judgmental, I just don't get it.
People don't eat things for all sorts of reasons. You might quite like a food, but not want to be responsible for what's involved in creating it. Or be unable to eat a certain ingredient for health reasons. Or be (or be fed by) a really unimaginative cook. So substitutes exist. Some work well, some are best regarded as a completely different foodstuff, and others are patently unfit for purpose (vegan 'cheese' that doesn't melt, for example).
Also, while there is some degree of overlap between "people who are veggie" and "people whoare health food nutterseat healthily" the two don't necessarily go hand in hand. Just as it is entirely feasible to eat a healthy diet that either includes or excludes meat, it is also completely possible to eat a very unhealthy diet on either basis. Chips are vegan, for a start.
Of course, this idea of the unhealthy vegetarian can be confusing for some people.
If you care what you eat, why would you eat that? Not being judgmental, I just don't get it.
People don't eat things for all sorts of reasons. You might quite like a food, but not want to be responsible for what's involved in creating it. Or be unable to eat a certain ingredient for health reasons. Or be (or be fed by) a really unimaginative cook. So substitutes exist. Some work well, some are best regarded as a completely different foodstuff, and others are patently unfit for purpose (vegan 'cheese' that doesn't melt, for example).
I have not tried soya milk in tea but I have had tea both with and without milk.
They taste very different because the fat in milk takes up some of the tannic bitterness.
If soya milk did this to tea, I might wish to use it were I vegan.
I don't like black tea.
What's a milkman?
Also, while there is some degree of overlap between "people who are veggie" and "people whoWe have a name for the "unhealthy" type- chips & chocolate vegetarians. They tend not to actually eat much in the way of vegetables. (Dreadful stereotype based on several vegetarian teenage girls). They always, however, get vegetarian foods to their liking when they visit here, hostess with the mostest, and all that.are health food nutterseat healthily" the two don't necessarily go hand in hand. Just as it is entirely feasible to eat a healthy diet that either includes or excludes meat, it is also completely possible to eat a very unhealthy diet on either basis. Chips are vegan, for a start.
What's a milkman?
An unfortunate chap with an unsustainable business we are trying to support for as long as humanly possible.
I am not a vegan but I really can't see why it should be SO difficult to cater for a vegan.
A Twitter contact had a rough time recently, remaining effectively unfed on a social night out.
It strikes me the dairy and egg producers are involved in more wanton animal death than those that produce meat from animals that have grown outdoors to near maturity. I'm afraid I like animal products too much and don't have the moral gumption to give them up.
If a vegan friend popped in to your home, would providing sustenance be a (big) problem?
Because, like the meat equivalents, they're quick, easy and tasty. And for some people, choosing not to eat meat doesn't mean choosing not to eat pretend meat. I love Linda McCartney red onion & thyme fake sausages, and I like quorn fake ham, and Tesco quorn cottage pie, although I hardly ever eat any of them.Vegan spread, soya milk, ice cream, chocolate, gravy, stuffing, sausages are all readily available, and cheap in supermarkets nowadays.
As an aside, I do sometimes wonder why veggies eat so many substitute foods like this. Personally, if I were ever to go veggie, I'd rather eat real vegetables than fake meat.
I am not a vegan but I really can't see why it should be SO difficult to cater for a vegan.
A Twitter contact had a rough time recently, remaining effectively unfed on a social night out.
It strikes me the dairy and egg producers are involved in more wanton animal death than those that produce meat from animals that have grown outdoors to near maturity. I'm afraid I like animal products too much and don't have the moral gumption to give them up.
If a vegan friend popped in to your home, would providing sustenance be a (big) problem?
do you eat meat? in which case you are saying you exercise no control over your diet but cast aspertions on those who do on sermantics? Maybe I'm just reading too much into it after 26 years of guilt trip comments, for me it's simples I don't like meat and don't wish to eat any of the by products of it as by and large they are unhealthy
anyway to answer your question yes I would find it very hard as an awful lot of vegetarian produce includes dairy fish and egg products even in miniscule quantities; take them away and you have vegetables (probably organic) and err spices and water ???
veggies are much easier; it's either from the carcass of a dead animal or not
I am not a vegan but I really can't see why it should be SO difficult to cater for a vegan.
A Twitter contact had a rough time recently, remaining effectively unfed on a social night out.
It strikes me the dairy and egg producers are involved in more wanton animal death than those that produce meat from animals that have grown outdoors to near maturity. I'm afraid I like animal products too much and don't have the moral gumption to give them up.
If a vegan friend popped in to your home, would providing sustenance be a (big) problem?
do you eat meat? in which case you are saying you exercise no control over your diet but cast aspertions on those who do on sermantics? Maybe I'm just reading too much into it after 26 years of guilt trip comments, for me it's simples I don't like meat and don't wish to eat any of the by products of it as by and large they are unhealthy
anyway to answer your question yes I would find it very hard as an awful lot of vegetarian produce includes dairy fish and egg products even in miniscule quantities; take them away and you have vegetables (probably organic) and err spices and water ???
veggies are much easier; it's either from the carcass of a dead animal or not
... my meals don't revolve around meat ("meat addict", Clarion called it upthread ;D ), I don't let anything go to waste, so a vegetable soup may well include meat stock from a few days ago, or vegetables may be cooked in animal fat.
...
To define vegan food as veggies with a bit of spices and water shows an distinct lack of inventiveness in the kitchen IMO :)
Vegan spread, soya milk, ice cream, chocolate, gravy, stuffing, sausages are all readily available, and cheap in supermarkets nowadays.
As an aside, I do sometimes wonder why veggies eat so many substitute foods like this. Personally, if I were ever to go veggie, I'd rather eat real vegetables than fake meat.
and what has
"It strikes me the dairy and egg producers are involved in more wanton animal death than those that produce meat from animals that have grown outdoors to near maturity*"
to do with a potato? or indeed people like me who choose to limit their diet for personal reasons
* I think quite a few lambs (and a lot of calves but mostly not in the UK) may disagree
To define vegan food as veggies with a bit of spices and water shows an distinct lack of inventiveness in the kitchen IMO :)
or the fact that I've never had to cater for vegans?
do you eat meat? in which case you are saying you exercise no control over your diet but cast aspertions on those who do on sermantics? Maybe I'm just reading too much into it after 26 years of guilt trip comments, for me it's simples I don't like meat and don't wish to eat any of the by products of it as by and large they are ....
BIL is gluten-free and allergic (or possibly intolerant, can't recall) to potatoes.
I can't even remember what a 'real' sausage tastes like.
and what has
"It strikes me the dairy and egg producers are involved in more wanton animal death than those that produce meat from animals that have grown outdoors to near maturity*"
to do with a potato? or indeed people like me who choose to limit their diet for personal reasons
* I think quite a few lambs (and a lot of calves but mostly not in the UK) may disagree
I am not a vegan. I don't pretend to be a vegan.
I have friends who are vegan.
I think they should be fed.
Amongst other foods, I suggest they could be served with potato.
I am sorry if this makes you angry.
BIL is gluten-free and allergic (or possibly intolerant, can't recall) to potatoes.
That is more of a challenge!
Is he OK with rice?
and what has
"It strikes me the dairy and egg producers are involved in more wanton animal death than those that produce meat from animals that have grown outdoors to near maturity*"
to do with a potato? or indeed people like me who choose to limit their diet for personal reasons
* I think quite a few lambs (and a lot of calves but mostly not in the UK) may disagree
I am not a vegan. I don't pretend to be a vegan.
I have friends who are vegan.
I think they should be fed.
Amongst other foods, I suggest they could be served with potato.
I am sorry if this makes you angry.
it doesn't make me angry at all; tbh the OP did contain two topics, one a comment about failure to cater and the other about what would we do in the situation?
If vegans are going to pitch up on spec at a social night out they stand a good chance of going unfed for reasons stated upthread (whether at friends or a commercial oulet)
Most people I know who want different diet on social occasions give plenty of notice. At a recent Bar Mitzvah, I sat next to a veggie (next to whom I'd sat at the previous Bar Mitzvah) and observed how the caterers fed him. This is always an education...
I don't like meat and don't wish to eat any of the by products of it as by and large they are unhealthy
IMO by and large they are unhealthy
any better?
IMO by and large they are unhealthy
any better?
Yes but it still doesn't make it true. Millions of years of evolution have gone into making humans omnivores. We are evolved to eat meat, it's not unhealthy
Look at hunter gatherer societies and you will see a lot less meat and a lot more veg on their menuAmazing how people view 'facts' through their own desire: confirmation bias.
I don't think a restaurant has any obligation to provide special provision for anyone.
It's a commercial business: it's saying 'Here's what we have: if you like it, buy it'.
If you don't like it, move on.
not strictly true, yes we are evolved as omnivores but our teeth do not cope well with raw meat, more suited fruits, nuts, berries and grubs. It's only the advent of cooking and domestic rather than wild animal meat that has accounted for humans' increase in meat consumption to the point where it becomes a daily (or even 3 times daily) occurence. That adaptation is much later than the evolution of our digestive systems and teeth. The same is also true of our use of cultivated vegetables and carbs like wheat and rice
If a vegan friend popped in to your home, would providing sustenance be a (big) problem?
Most places design their menu around what Brake Brothers are supplying.
Why are so many vegetarian options based around goats cheese?
On the other hand, you shouldn't be in the hospitality business if you aren't prepared to be hospitable.
Mrs ADH can't eat brassicas, and often has problems with processed bread. So that is spinnach, greens, and pizza out.
Eating out can be really rather difficult, especially in social situations. Trying to find out what is actually in stuff on the menu is seemingly nigh-on impossible.
We often end up ordering two things that she can probably eat, then I eat whatever turns out to have undeclared brassicas in it.
Most places design their menu around what Brake Brothers are supplying.
I prefer to avoid eating in such establishments if I can help it. Veggie or not, I don't often find much that appeals on their menus.
Why are so many vegetarian options based around goats cheese?
Look at hunter gatherer societies and you will see a lot less meat and a lot more veg on their menuAmazing how people view 'facts' through their own desire: confirmation bias.
Paleo fans claim a higher proportion of fat & protein/fewer carbs in hunter gatherer societies. Keto fans claim higher levels of meat & fat (Inuits live of pemmican for months, Masai drink blood).
Different peoples ate/eat different things depending on their local environment. Historically people died in their thirties and forties.
Seems to me any peoples who are desperate for food are going to eat the most calorie/nutrient rich stuff they can find. That's meat. That's certainly what chimpanzees do after all- eat fruit & vegetation most of the time but when they get the chance will gorge on meat.
What happened historically is irrelevant. We can be healthy on a variety of diets, and we can take supplements and substitutes if our moral stance or whatever preference makes some foods undesirable or distasteful. It's one of the benefits of living in a rich society, we get to choose.
We have long lost the ability to intinctively go out and hunt something, so we eat farm animals (and fish vaccumed out of the sea) instead
Why are so many vegetarian options based around goats cheese?
Having done some extensive research in Paris, I believe French for 'vegetarian' is 'Salade aux chèvre chaud'.
I don't think she'd have any trouble at tonight's venue.
Vegetables are all but absent.
Menu is mostly fries and grills.
Its the way you're made to feel like a complete :-X becuase you don't regard the muck they're serving up as food. Or you'd like to know what is *actually* in it.
Its the way you're made to feel like a complete :-X becuase you don't regard the muck they're serving up as food. Or you'd like to know what is *actually* in it.
Yebbut as per my earlier comment, you don't have to be a vegetarian to feel like that in a lot of eateries.
We have long lost the ability to intinctively go out and hunt something, so we eat farm animals (and fish vaccumed out of the sea) instead
Really? I thought it was jambon. At least that is what you get served :)
And don't even attempt to be seriously kosher in France. After A levels a group of us went off to France, including one boy who was more observant than most (having begged and persuaded his parents to let him come at all - I have no idea how he wangled it as they were strictly kosher and we were staying in a non-kosher-kitchen place). Cooking for ourselves was fine as long as he was prepared to turn a blind eye to the single sink and single set of crocks, but when we went out for dinner there was a choice of pork (in cream sauce), various other meat (in cream sauce), or shellfish (probably in cream sauce) none of which he could eat. Fortunately his French was fluent, he explained the no-milk-and-meat and no pork rule to a very bemused waitress, and they offered him trout instead.
It arrived beautifully wrapped in bacon. :facepalm:
Pasta with some pesto and pine nuts, or some dhal and rice. Simples.
In france, they think bacon is a form of salad. ;D I've witnessed someone try to get a vegetarian salad and they were putting those little bits of bacon they call "lardons" in it, and when he held his hand up to say he didn't want them, they sort of went mais oui, lardons! lardons!? as if to say, "what do you mean you don't want lardons in your salad , they're PART OF the salad!" ;D
Oh and for the record, if I invited you to dinner, asked you if you had any requirements I needed to cater for, and then you turnt up with your own bits I'd be offended. That says to me I don't trust you to...
If it was an inpromptu gathering then sure by all means bring something but bringing your own meal to a specially prepared dinner party, you can fuck right off.
/sorry.
This happened recently.
Pasta with some pesto and pine nuts, or some dhal and rice. Simples.
Vegan pesto hopefully - as most has parmesan in it. :)
Then, of course, you turn up with your lovely food and all the carnivores pounce on it leaving not enough for the NMEs >:(.
We have long lost the ability to intinctively go out and hunt something, so we eat farm animals (and fish vaccumed out of the sea) instead
You forgot farmed grains, farmed pulses, farmed fruit, farmed vegetables, etc.
Well I tend to make it myself sometimes so yep
Oh and for the record, if I invited you to dinner, asked you if you had any requirements I needed to cater for, and then you turnt up with your own bits I'd be offended. That says to me I don't trust you to...
Then, of course, you turn up with your lovely food and all the carnivores pounce on it leaving not enough for the NMEs >:(.
Yeah. That's happened enough times when I've been at an event to really, really start to fucking annoy the shit out of me.
There was absolutely nothing - NOTHING - left that a vegetarian could eat at the buffet when I arrived. I'm pretty sure the other mourners weren't all vegetarians.
Oh hang on a bit I think we've got some double standards going on here! ;)Then, of course, you turn up with your lovely food and all the carnivores pounce on it leaving not enough for the NMEs >:(.
Yeah. That's happened enough times when I've been at an event to really, really start to fucking annoy the shit out of me.
Happens all the bloody time, in whatever direction.
Rule one of mass catering is never to put the veggie food out first. I'd suggest that in situations where there's likely to be contention (LGBT events with mainstream caterers, for example), polite meat eaters should make an active effort to eat the meat-based food first.
Rule one for me is to quickly corner whatever token item of non-hippy identifiable actual food is available at an event and eat at least some of it before it disappears.
And if you share a student house with freezer-pilfering veggies, tactical purchase of meat products can ensure that you have a meal to come home to. :facepalm:
You're not really doing much to help the plight of the little animals if the meat eaters are ONLY allowed to eat meat. ;)
As for vegetarianism etc being a choice, I'd disagree. I have family who have been raised from birth as vegetarian and there are lots of people who for faith/culture reasons are veggie. For some people regardless of when they became vegetarian meat is simply "Not food" in the same way insects and fish eyes are not usually food to British people.In the same way that some people raised in a faith with strict dietary guidelines can lose that faith, or chose not to follow those guidelines, so anyone raised meat eating can chose to become vegetarian and vice versa. Of course it's a choice.
Grrrr....ANYONE can eat what they like, vegans are CHOOSING not to eat meat, it's not some affliction that's foist upon them from on high. Let's try to remember that.
not quite the point; meat eaters can eat what they like
some people eat celery.
I don't feel like I could just choose to eat meat. It's part of my moral make up and had been since I was old enough to make food decisions for my self.
What are your views on homosexuality? Is that just a choice too?
I don't feel like I could just choose to eat meat. It's part of my moral make up and had been since I was old enough to make food decisions for my self.
I don't feel like I could just choose to eat meat. It's part of my moral make up and had been since I was old enough to make food decisions for my self.
This is a result of living in a society where you can actually choose what to eat. If food were scarce you might consider eating meat.
Vegetarianism has grown in popularity in the post war generations precisely because food is not a scarce or expensive commodity.
...do you eat meat? in which case you are saying you exercise no control over your diet ...That's a very odd thing to say. Why do you think that anyone who eats meat exercises no control over their diet?
I don't like meat and don't wish to eat any of the by products of it as by and large they are unhealthySo unhealthy that your ancestors have been eating them for millions of years, but somehow managed to survive long enough to produce you.
The problem is due to caterers foolishly assuming that only vegetarians will eat vegetarian dishes. It's part of the general caterers prejudice against veggies. If they just did enough vegetarian food for all the veggies they're likely to get plus a sizable proportion of the carnivores, & reduced the amount of meat accordingly, everyone should be happy.Then, of course, you turn up with your lovely food and all the carnivores pounce on it leaving not enough for the NMEs >:(.
Yeah. That's happened enough times when I've been at an event to really, really start to fucking annoy the shit out of me.
Happens all the bloody time, in whatever direction.
Rule one of mass catering is never to put the veggie food out first. I'd suggest that in situations where there's likely to be contention (LGBT events with mainstream caterers, for example), polite meat eaters should make an active effort to eat the meat-based food first.
Rule one for me is to quickly corner whatever token item of non-hippy identifiable actual food is available at an event and eat at least some of it before it disappears.
I don't feel like I could just choose to eat meat. It's part of my moral make up and had been since I was old enough to make food decisions for my self.
What are your views on homosexuality? Is that just a choice too?
Oh, including the veggie option then?... Oh well that's ok then. As long as we agree ;)You're not really doing much to help the plight of the little animals if the meat eaters are ONLY allowed to eat meat. ;)
not quite the point; meat eaters can eat what they like
Saying meat-eaters aren't allowed to eat the vegetarian option is along the lines of saying disabled people are ONLY allowed to park in disabled spaces.
Not getting the catering to match what was ordered is a simple fail of service delivery. Not good business and I would be annoyed and probably not use that company again.
Expecting to get vegan options without asking is different as vegans are about 0.3% of the UK population so automatically providing for them is not always going to make financial sense.
Grrrr....ANYONE can eat what they like, vegans are CHOOSING not to eat meat, it's not some affliction that's foist upon them from on high. Let's try to remember that.
not quite the point; meat eaters can eat what they like
Can you eat broken glass? But other people love broken glass. Stop being difficult and eat your broken glass up. Honestly, making out that it is physically impossible for you to consume broken glass is just some semanic masturbation.it's (a) not food and (b) is dangerous to eat it. Obvioiusly ::-)
There are kids in the third world who would kill for a few mouthfuls of broken glass >:(
Grrrr....ANYONE can eat what they like, vegans are CHOOSING not to eat meat, it's not some affliction that's foist upon them from on high. Let's try to remember that.
not quite the point; meat eaters can eat what they like
Actually that isn't true. My mother doesn't eat meat or fish because it makes her ill; others are vegan or virtually vegan for the same reason. She had a vegetarian ration book in the war. It's like the waitress/chef who insisted that a meal was dairy free because they thought it was a middle class mummy being precious: when the child had a reaction that required use of an epi-pen, they said 'oh sorry' >:(. It's not up to other people to decide what you should eat.
Actually that isn't true. My mother doesn't eat meat or fish because it makes her ill; others are vegan or virtually vegan for the same reason. She had a vegetarian ration book in the war. It's like the waitress/chef who insisted that a meal was dairy free because they thought it was a middle class mummy being precious: when the child had a reaction that required use of an epi-pen, they said 'oh sorry' >:(. It's not up to other people to decide what you should eat.I knew someone who didn't drink coffee because it gave her a headache an hour afterwards, but she was fine with decaff and couldn't tell the difference in taste. But in a restaurant she'd often ask for decaff, drink it , but then get a headache, and what had obviously happened is that they'd found they hadn't got decaff like she'd asked and just given her normal anyway. ::-)
Why are so many vegetarian options based around goats cheese?
Having done some extensive research in Paris, I believe French for 'vegetarian' is 'Salade aux chèvre chaud'.
it's (a) not food and (b) is dangerous to eat it. Obvioiusly ::-)
If anyone is a vegan for moral reasons then surely their ideal goal is for the meat industry to stop killing animals. For that to happen enough people have got to become vegans for the demand for meat to dry up ...
If anyone is a vegan for moral reasons then surely their ideal goal is for the meat industry to stop killing animals. For that to happen enough people have got to become vegans for the demand for meat to dry up - their boycott has got to set an example to others to follow in their footsteps.
That's never going to happen if they keep going to buffets and telling people they've GOT to eat the meat option because THEY want to scoff the vegetarian option themselves. It's like, you've got to stay being a meat eater so I can stay being a vegetarian. Ridiculously backward logic - a completely self-defeating prophecy if you ask me.
vegetarians and vegans ... probably don't spend that much on eating out.
Saying meat-eaters aren't allowed to eat the vegetarian option is along the lines of saying disabled people are ONLY allowed to park in disabled spaces.
No, it isn't. In fact, it's the exact opposite - ie more like saying that non-disabled drivers aren't allowed to use the facilities that have been provided specifically for those who actually need them.
If anyone is a vegan for moral reasons then surely their ideal goal is for the meat industry to stop killing animals. For that to happen enough people have got to become vegans for the demand for meat to dry up - their boycott has got to set an example to others to follow in their footsteps.
Not everyone who chooses not to eat meat or other animal products is an evangelist. Some of my best friends eat meat ;).That's never going to happen if they keep going to buffets and telling people they've GOT to eat the meat option because THEY want to scoff the vegetarian option themselves. It's like, you've got to stay being a meat eater so I can stay being a vegetarian. Ridiculously backward logic - a completely self-defeating prophecy if you ask me.
It's not about the dietary "choices" people make. It's not just about catering for everybody's requirements either. It's about thought and respect for others.
That's fine but vegetarianism isn't a disability. (Is it?)
The vegetarian is no more the equivalent of the disabled person, than is the meat-eater the equivalent of the disabled person.
That's fine but vegetarianism isn't a disability. (Is it?)
...
But what I object to is people trying to impose some blanket rule that meat eaters must take the meat option if one is available
.. and backing it up with false claims that their options are restricted by factors beyond their control when in reality they are restricted by their own lifestyle choices.
In fact, saying meat eaters must use the meat option if one is available, is absolutely no different to saying cyclists MUST use the cycle lane if one is available! More so in fact, cars are less able to use the cycle lane than vegetarians are to eat meat. I'm fine with using the cycle lane if it's good, but I reserve the right not to, should I so choose.
Ben, vegetarians are just disappointed when they can't get anything to eat, even when it's known in advance that they will be attending a function or something. It's a matter of courtesy, about getting enough to eat that doesn't conflict with your dietary wishes. Suddenly we're expected (by you) to be changing the world every time we eat out. You don't campaign for vegetarians to eat meat when you eat out, do you? You try to make out that it's a problem for meat eaters - it isn't. If you go to a function and all the meat has gone, you eat what's left. That's understandable, if unfortunate for vegetarians, who don't have that option. We end up gettting our food from somewhere else - after leaving the function to which we were invited.
That's fine - I'm ok with a bit of give and take.*
I'm often happy to eat "option A" if I would ideally prefer "B" but like both, to let someone else eat "A" just because they would prefer it, not even due to vegetarianism. But what I object to is people trying to impose some blanket rule that meat eaters must take the meat option if one is available** and backing it up with false claims that their options are restricted by factors beyond their control when in reality they are restricted by their own lifestyle choices.
How would you feel if you were ONLY able to ride on cycle lanes, someone invited you out on a ride and said 'it's OK, it is cycle lanes the whole way!', then you find the entire ride disrupted by cars parked in the cycle lanes, with only the road carriageway passable?
Horse :hand:, it is about not wanting to be part of the market that demands this.
I can't avert climate change by myself. I'm not going to come round your house and harangue you into living in a hessian sack in a hole in the ground. I'm just going to try and live in as eco way as I can, sensibly, and not be part of the market that destroys the planet.
I am not my brother's keeper, and all that jazz.
Like an ostrich bullying other ostriches out of the way so it can bury its OWN head in the only small patch of sand available. ::-) ;)
... In my analogy ...
I think that's an unfair choice of words. Some choose not to eat meat (or certain types) because of religion. Is it fair to expect them to go against their beliefs? Some choose not to for moral and/or economic reasons (I don't mean they can't afford it). Is it fair to expect them to cast aside their morals?
In my case, I would probably eat meat if I was assured it came from a humane and sustainable source. However, I haven't eaten meat in such a long time that the very thought of it turns my stomach. I wouldn’t ask you to consume a product that repulses you so why should I be expected to?
I am always amazed at how some of the places that are cheap and dont have real chefs manage to cater quite well for vegetarians but those that do can't. McDonalds and Burgerking both have veggie options and they are essentially in the business of selling processed beef !Oh yes, course they work off scripts. I would go so far as saying Premier Inn no more have "proper chefs" than do McDonalds. That doesn't surprise me at all.
Premier Inns have quite a range of veggie options on their menus. I was eating in one once though when a woman got irate when they couldn't accommodate her request for a vegan meal accompanied by a list of other things she could eat, complete lack of understanding of the culinary skills of the food re-heaters in the kitchen, the amount of produce they had to choose from and the fact that they just work of scripts down to where on the plate each item goes.
When I ask the meat eaters to let the vegetarians/vegans have first dibs on the food they can/will eat it's not so much a demand as a request for courtesy and thoughtfulness cos I assume most people don't realise. If someone feels strongly enough not to be courteous or doesn't like the meat on offer then I am not going to stop them, but it can help a general trend to avoid scarcity of food. Of course I tend to overcater veggie/vegan coming from communities (which are admittedly white, middle class, educated etc) where 50%+ of people are vegetarian at least.
Meat's nice, but it's not crucial.
Meat's nice, but it's not crucial.
That's the sort of assumption that white, middle-class, educated, right-on vegetarians make. It's an issue the bi community (which is overwhelmingly the above) is beginning to challenge in an attempt to become more diverse.
Good, that's fine then! No one's expecting anyone to eat anything that "repulses" them.
Equally, if I'm NOT a vegetarian, and I go to a function where the meat option repulses me, I don't expect to be told I can't eat the veg option because I 'should' eat the meat option on the grounds that I'm "a meat-eater". That's all.
Vegetarianism isn't a special registered status that you can elevate yourself to that confers additional rights over others.
Good, that's fine then! No one's expecting anyone to eat anything that "repulses" them.
Thank you. It's just that you described in a previous post that a person's decision to not eat meat is a "lifestyle choice". I am suggesting that, in the vast majority of these cases, no such choice actually exists.
Of course not, but I'm sure you recognise that in such a situation you may not be alone in your reaction to the food. Therefore, the availability of food you and others with similar taste can enjoy would be somewhat limited. Being aware of this, would you consider it fair to help yourself to a large portion?Possibly not. Whether I did so or not would in all fairness probably be related to how much I liked the other people in the function ;)
Meat's nice, but it's not crucial.
That's the sort of assumption that white, middle-class, educated, right-on vegetarians make. It's an issue the bi community (which is overwhelmingly the above) is beginning to challenge in an attempt to become more diverse.
I absolutely don't even begin to understand what point you're making. Sorry! :)
We're back to the definition of 'real food' (see link posted by barakta above). It's an unpleasant truism that certain demographics will be actively put off by an event that proudly proclaims that "wholesome vegan food will be provided". It's othering as much as it is welcoming, chiefly along class/education lines.So you're saying you wouldn't go to an event that proclaims to serve 'wholesome vegan food' because you consider that that establishment probably doesn't regard 'wholesome vegan food' as normal...?
For some people white sliced Chorleywood bread and mechanically reclaimed ham is 'safe' rather than 'junk'.
There is no "one size fits all" solution. And IMHO arrogant to assume that there is.
We're back to the definition of 'real food' (see link posted by barakta above). It's an unpleasant truism that certain demographics will be actively put off by an event that proudly proclaims that "wholesome vegan food will be provided". It's othering as much as it is welcoming, chiefly along class/education lines.So you're saying you wouldn't go to an event that proclaims to serve 'wholesome vegan food' because you consider that that establishment probably doesn't regard 'wholesome vegan food' as normal...?
For some people white sliced Chorleywood bread and mechanically reclaimed ham is 'safe' rather than 'junk'.
There is no "one size fits all" solution. And IMHO arrogant to assume that there is.
I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick Ben. My understanding of what Kim is saying is that advertising an "wholesome vegan food" as part of an may put certain demographics off attending the event as they don't think "vegan food" is a particularly good thing. It may scream "middle class" or "hippies" or whatever to some people and make them think that event is not for them. If vegan food isn't the purpose of the event but being inclusive is then linking the two may not be such a good idea.
Apologies to Kim if the point missed my by completely.
Well I'm sorry but, despite trying, you've as yet failed to convince me that vegetarianism is anything but a choice.
Can you eat broken glass? But other people love broken glass. Stop being difficult and eat your broken glass up. Honestly, making out that it is physically impossible for you to consume broken glass is just some semanic masturbation.
There are kids in the third world who would kill for a few mouthfuls of broken glass >:(
Well I'm sorry but, despite trying, you've as yet failed to convince me that vegetarianism is anything but a choice.
Aww diddums.Can you eat broken glass? But other people love broken glass. Stop being difficult and eat your broken glass up. Honestly, making out that it is physically impossible for you to consume broken glass is just some semanic masturbation.
There are kids in the third world who would kill for a few mouthfuls of broken glass >:(
If you choose not to believe that some people find eating meat as repulsive and impossible as the idea of eating broken glass, that is your choice. It does not make it so.
I'm not even veggie/vegan/fruitarian/antiprocessedgunkist FFS.
I am loving this argument though ;D
Well you stopped making sense long ago, probably should realise that by the fact you've started replying to yourself? ;)
"I don't exepct you to campaign to change the world but if you are a vegetarian for moral reasons then what is the actual point of choosing not to eat meat when you are doing absolutely nothing to change the actual amount of meat eaten? In other words, if there are going to be 70 meat dishes and 30 veg dishes at a function then going to the function and insisting that you are one of the 30 that eats the veg dishes does nothing to change the total amount of meat eaten."
Ben, you do say some strange things. The point about me being a vegetarian is that I'm one less person eating meat. That is a statement in itself. It may be the only statement that I've got time for, because, strange as it may seem, vegetarians have just as many calls on their time, more if you count the efforts required to get something to eat sometimes. As for not campaigning, it's certainly stirred you up.
But the above was specifically in response to discussion of the hypothetical situation in which the amount of vegetarian meals is limited.
YOU may be one less person eating meat, but someone else is one more.
My worst ever mass catering veggie experience was at a US conference "banquet". I had informed them in advance of my veggieness, but nothing arrived when everyone else got their meal served. Despite several reminders to the waiting staff, they didn't serve me for a good 50 minutes after everyone else. That's after their first, second and third courses when all the other plates had been cleared away and we were well in to the coffee and after dinner speeches. And after all that wait, they just served me a large portion of the beans and potatoes they had served everyone else with their meat dish.
However much people may not understand vegetarianism, I really struggle to imagine that they thought they were offering anything other than completely shit service.
My worst ever mass catering veggie experience was at a US conference "banquet". I had informed them in advance of my veggieness, but nothing arrived when everyone else got their meal served. Despite several reminders to the waiting staff, they didn't serve me for a good 50 minutes after everyone else. That's after their first, second and third courses when all the other plates had been cleared away and we were well in to the coffee and after dinner speeches. And after all that wait, they just served me a large portion of the beans and potatoes they had served everyone else with their meat dish.
However much people may not understand vegetarianism, I really struggle to imagine that they thought they were offering anything other than completely shit service.
Staff summer do. Hog roast, but was assured there was a veggie option. I was served a bun with apple sauce and sage & onion stuffing. I got cross, and then left.
Staff summer do. Hog roast, but was assured there was a veggie option. I was served a bun with apple sauce and sage & onion stuffing. I got cross, and then left.
;D If you are a vegetarian, did you not consider that maybe a Hog Roast may not be the best choice of event to go to? ;D
Sounds to me like you're just deliberately testing them. I think you got what you deserved ! ;)
See post up above about behaviour of teenagers in my household. Those who wish to pick an argument will do so, with no regard to logic or facts.Staff summer do. Hog roast, but was assured there was a veggie option. I was served a bun with apple sauce and sage & onion stuffing. I got cross, and then left.
;D If you are a vegetarian, did you not consider that maybe a Hog Roast may not be the best choice of event to go to? ;D
Sounds to me like you're just deliberately testing them. I think you got what you deserved ! ;)
Anybody else who works in primary schools starting to feel an urge to sit Ben down with last summer's Reading Comp Standard Attainment Task? Now, which level paper do we think....
My worst ever mass catering veggie experience was at a US conference "banquet". I had informed them in advance of my veggieness, but nothing arrived when everyone else got their meal served. Despite several reminders to the waiting staff, they didn't serve me for a good 50 minutes after everyone else. That's after their first, second and third courses when all the other plates had been cleared away and we were well in to the coffee and after dinner speeches. And after all that wait, they just served me a large portion of the beans and potatoes they had served everyone else with their meat dish.
However much people may not understand vegetarianism, I really struggle to imagine that they thought they were offering anything other than completely shit service.
Staff summer do. Hog roast, but was assured there was a veggie option. I was served a bun with apple sauce and sage & onion stuffing. I got cross, and then left.
Ben, erm your logic is really wierd.
This is zero-sum situation. A limited number of people. One person chooses to be vegetarian. That is one less person eating meat. Savvy?
We're back to the definition of 'real food' (see link posted by barakta above). It's an unpleasant truism that certain demographics will be actively put off by an event that proudly proclaims that "wholesome vegan food will be provided". It's othering as much as it is welcoming, chiefly along class/education lines.So you're saying you wouldn't go to an event that proclaims to serve 'wholesome vegan food' because you consider that that establishment probably doesn't regard 'wholesome vegan food' as normal...?
For some people white sliced Chorleywood bread and mechanically reclaimed ham is 'safe' rather than 'junk'.
There is no "one size fits all" solution. And IMHO arrogant to assume that there is.
Well I'd say if you can afford to be picky enough to choose your establishment based on not just what they serve but their attitude towards it and whether you deem that they're "judging you on class/education lines" as well then you haven't got that much to worry about and should probably count yourself lucky. ;) In our local village there's one chippy and one chinese, and that's about it. I've never surveyed them as to their attitudes or their prejudices to certain demographics.
I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick Ben. My understanding of what Kim is saying is that advertising an "wholesome vegan food" as part of an event may put certain demographics off attending the event as they don't think "vegan food" is a particularly good thing. It may scream "middle class" or "hippies" or whatever to some people and make them think that event is not for them. If vegan food isn't the purpose of the event but being inclusive is then linking the two may not be such a good idea.
A friend of mine had a hog roast at her 40th birthday party. I assumed she would provide a veggie option; I went hungry. Should I have not gone to my friend's party because it was a hog roast?My worst ever mass catering veggie experience was at a US conference "banquet". I had informed them in advance of my veggieness, but nothing arrived when everyone else got their meal served. Despite several reminders to the waiting staff, they didn't serve me for a good 50 minutes after everyone else. That's after their first, second and third courses when all the other plates had been cleared away and we were well in to the coffee and after dinner speeches. And after all that wait, they just served me a large portion of the beans and potatoes they had served everyone else with their meat dish.
However much people may not understand vegetarianism, I really struggle to imagine that they thought they were offering anything other than completely shit service.
Staff summer do. Hog roast, but was assured there was a veggie option. I was served a bun with apple sauce and sage & onion stuffing. I got cross, and then left.
;D If you are a vegetarian, did you not consider that maybe a Hog Roast may not be the best choice of event to go to? ;D
Sounds to me like you're just deliberately testing them. I think you got what you deserved ! ;)
In other news, the Daily Mail has added this thread to the list of things that give you cancer.
That's all well and good, but what does the Guardian think?
That's all well and good, but what does the Guardian think?
""The problem is due to caterers foolishly assuming that only vegetarians will eat vegetarian dishes. It's part of the general caterers prejudice against veggies. If they just did enough vegetarian food for all the veggies plus a sizable proportion of the carnivores, & reduced the amount of meat accordingly, everyone should be happy.Event caterers, yes. And prejudice because they still often need to be reminded of the need to provide for people who don't eat meat, & even when they don't, regularly fail to make proper provision, regardless of how many vegetarian customers there are.
I eat most things, but I've sometimes homed in on the veggie options at a buffet because they looked (& often were) tastier. I don't think I'm unique.""
Complex food dynamics -familiar territory for the caterers on LEL this summer.
It is the prerogative of any commercial establishment to say "Sorry, but I don't have the time/staff/ enthusiasm to cater for vegetarians"-AKA the Frankie Boyle option.
Why do you think caterers have a prejudice against veggies? I assume you mean event caterers rather than eating houses?
My observations and views :Absolutely right.
Small restaurants with informal visitors have to make a commercial decision about whether it is worth their while catering for non-meat eaters.
At events aimed at larger groups, particularly when the food is not the main point of the event, weddings etc the organisers should ensure that all known non-standard diets are catered for as well as the.
expected proportion of veggies and vegans
Caters should understand that veggie and vegan food is attractive to meat eaters and so provide enough to allow for this.
Above all they should make it obvious what it all is.
Were there is some element of compulsion it the event - work training courses, sales conferences etc I think that the organiser has a moral duty to make provision for all diets.
I also remember going to a works Christmas party wgjere every item on the buffet for 150 people contained meat.See my story about the venue that had to be bullied into providing something without meat for a works party for 400. At least the employer was willing to do the necessary bullying.
Can we get another nine pages out of an innocuous post in Food and Drink ? Will this be the first thread to be locked in Food and Drink ? We can but wait and see.
I hadn't realised helmets were now made out of meat.
I hadn't realised helmets were now made out of meat.That's because you're a lesbian. :demon:
Ben, I really hope you don't teach maths - or logic. If 10 vegetarians are faced with a meat-only option because the meat-eaters have eaten all the veggie food that doesn't lead to the same amount of meat consumed. The veggies just don't eat the meat. (By the way, there is no such thing as an occasional veggie or a vegetarian who only eats fish, say.);D I'm sorry but there absolutely is ! I've witnessed them. A bloke where used to work was one.
And you still haven't explained why, because I am a vegetarian, I should be campaigning anymore than a meat-eater. I just don't eat meat and while I wish more people were like me (in that respect at least) I don't bang on about it. I've campaigned about loads of things in my time and currently have just as full and busy a life as any meat-eater.I just don't see the point of being a vegetarian on moral grounds if you don't... like I've said,I just don't see the point in boycotting things,I just don't think it does any good.
He wasn't vegetarian. He might not eat much meat or fish, but he does eat it. So he's not vegetarian.Ben, I really hope you don't teach maths - or logic. If 10 vegetarians are faced with a meat-only option because the meat-eaters have eaten all the veggie food that doesn't lead to the same amount of meat consumed. The veggies just don't eat the meat. (By the way, there is no such thing as an occasional veggie or a vegetarian who only eats fish, say.);D I'm sorry but there absolutely is ! I've witnessed them. A bloke where used to work was one.
A lot of meat eaters turn vegetarian on long rides. Meat is hard to digest.I wasn't familiar with Velocio, so google found me this:
Twas one of Velocio's 7 commandments of cycling...
Velocio was a really neat guy. He was the one who invented first bikes with two concentric gears selected by hand, later on both sides of the wheel (you had to turn the wheel around), and later invented the modern derailleur.http://www.bicyclesource.com/seven_cyclist_commandments
An exception to the 'meat - interesting, veggie stuff - boring' attitude of caterers quoted above is, in my experience, the pub buffet. I quite often go for the veggie stuff cos the meat stuff is so awful. Sausage rolls, plastic ham sandwiches, chicken nuggets, etc. are enough to turn anyone veggie for the night.totally, cheap and nasty meat and pastry products are some of the worst "food " products available. Often known in our team as UFOs (unidentified fried objects ).
He wasn't vegetarian. He might not eat much meat or fish, but he does eat it. So he's not vegetarian.Ben, I really hope you don't teach maths - or logic. If 10 vegetarians are faced with a meat-only option because the meat-eaters have eaten all the veggie food that doesn't lead to the same amount of meat consumed. The veggies just don't eat the meat. (By the way, there is no such thing as an occasional veggie or a vegetarian who only eats fish, say.);D I'm sorry but there absolutely is ! I've witnessed them. A bloke where used to work was one.
He wasn't vegetarian. He might not eat much meat or fish, but he does eat it. So he's not vegetarian.Ben, I really hope you don't teach maths - or logic. If 10 vegetarians are faced with a meat-only option because the meat-eaters have eaten all the veggie food that doesn't lead to the same amount of meat consumed. The veggies just don't eat the meat. (By the way, there is no such thing as an occasional veggie or a vegetarian who only eats fish, say.);D I'm sorry but there absolutely is ! I've witnessed them. A bloke where used to work was one.
Well, the point was he described himself as a vegetarian, but then goes and necks the odd bacon sandwich when he thinks it will go unnoticed.
Well, the point was he described himself as a vegetarian, but then goes and necks the odd bacon sandwich when he thinks it will go unnoticed.
Well, the point was he described himself as a vegetarian, but then goes and necks the odd bacon sandwich when he thinks it will go unnoticed.
Sometimes it's easier to add a simple label to one's self than explain what you prefer or not prefer to eat. For example, I haven't described myself as a vegetarian in this thread because I'm not. If I'm going to a function or meal though by far the easiest approach is for me to say I'm vegetarian.
I am not a vegan or a veggie but don't always want the meat option.
I don't think that vegetarians would ask non-vegetarians not to eat any of the veggie food,Well, you might not, but some of the more militant vegetarians in our midst have admitted upthread that they DO do exactly that.
...didn't read the whole thread...
I don't think that vegetarians would ask non-vegetarians not to eat any of the veggie food, but to be slightly considerate, given the crapness of some caterers. Here's an example I experienced last year:That's an example of the anti-vegetarian prejudice of some caterers I mentioned.
I attended an external lunch meeting, from 11 until 3pm, which included buffet sandwiches for lunch. I had specifically mentioned being vegetarian to the organiser, as had another person. The organiser tells the caterer that at least 2 of the 15 people due at the meeting are vegetarian. When the sandwiches arrive, there is a large tray (about 30 sandwich triangles) of beef sandwiches, another of chicken something sandwiches, another of tuna mayo and another of ham. There is then a plate containing 8 triangles of cheese sandwiches. Personally, I think the caterer was taking the piss with that, especially as a few of the meat eating people at the front of the queue took them.
In contrast to BenT's scenario where the veggies would then eat the meat sandwiches, we didn't have any at all, so just ate the cake.
For pre-ordered food, or non-buffet food, the issue doesn't often arise - except when you've pre-ordered one thing and like the look of something better when the food starts coming out so there isn't enough of a particular thing, but that's annoying whatever you've ordered.
as an aside has anyone noticed that 'spoons have withdrawn veggy dishes from most of their meal deals? (I think just veggie curry veggie burger and whatever they do Sunday lunch)
I hardly think it's lack of demand cos they never have the veggie curry when I order it)
am I also the only person who orders a McD's breakfast meal and pulls the meat out as it's cheaper and much quicker than ordering seperate items?
as an aside has anyone noticed that 'spoons have withdrawn veggy dishes from most of their meal deals? (I think just veggie curry veggie burger and whatever they do Sunday lunch)
I hardly think it's lack of demand cos they never have the veggie curry when I order it)
am I also the only person who orders a McD's breakfast meal and pulls the meat out as it's cheaper and much quicker than ordering seperate items?
That is news to me!
The sweet potato & chickpea curry is on this menu. http://www.jdwetherspoon.co.uk/home/food/menu/main/mains-2 (http://www.jdwetherspoon.co.uk/home/food/menu/main/mains-2)
as an aside has anyone noticed that 'spoons have withdrawn veggy dishes from most of their meal deals? (I think just veggie curry veggie burger and whatever they do Sunday lunch)
I hardly think it's lack of demand cos they never have the veggie curry when I order it)
am I also the only person who orders a McD's breakfast meal and pulls the meat out as it's cheaper and much quicker than ordering seperate items?
as an aside has anyone noticed that 'spoons have withdrawn veggy dishes from most of their meal deals? (I think just veggie curry veggie burger and whatever they do Sunday lunch)
I hardly think it's lack of demand cos they never have the veggie curry when I order it)
am I also the only person who orders a McD's breakfast meal and pulls the meat out as it's cheaper and much quicker than ordering seperate items?
You may be the only person on this thread who orders a McD's breakfast ;)
so I don't think they're guilty of withdrawing anything from the meal deals.)
Can only assume that it must be that vegetarians aren't doing enough to convince them of their cause. ;)
So was Madonna singing that she was 'Like A Vegan'?Bitten for the very first time?
the point I was mking about 'spoons is that they have a lot of all day every day and weekly meal deals that include a drink (which does not heave to be alcoholic and is cheaper if not) but many of them (hot dog, chicken, steak and fish) have no veggie alternative
You may be the only person on this thread who orders a McD's breakfast ;)
You may be the only person on this thread who orders a McD's breakfast ;)
No, I must admit that a McD's breakfast is an occasional guilty pleasure here. I'm not saying I actually like it, but sometimes it's just the only thing that will do. (Having said that, I can't remember the last time I had one.)
Wetherspoon's food is beyond the pale though.
Bacon & egg muffin for me. Don't like the sausage version.
I was put off Wetherspoons food by a very bad burger experience once. I'm sure it's not all as bad as that but it's a negative association I can't get past.
One thing I've never understood is the unwritten law in the catering trade. The one that states that when grudgingly providing a vegetarian 'option' it has to be slathered with eggs and/or dairy, thus making it useless for vegans.
Do they think the sky will fall in or something if they provide a meal devoid of animal products?
One thing I've never understood is the unwritten law in the catering trade. The one that states that when grudgingly providing a vegetarian 'option' it has to be slathered with eggs and/or dairy, thus making it useless for vegans.
Do they think the sky will fall in or something if they provide a meal devoid of animal products?
One thing I've never understood is the unwritten law in the catering trade. The one that states that when grudgingly providing a vegetarian 'option' it has to be slathered with eggs and/or dairy, thus making it useless for vegans.
Do they think the sky will fall in or something if they provide a meal devoid of animal products?
Turn this on its head a minute - put yourself in the place a catering manager at a large event where you reckon youll probably sell 200 meals. You know from experience that you'll get between 0 and 5 people asking for gluten, dairy or whatever else free meals, half a dozen asking for kosher or halal, and the vast majority plumping for traditional favourites, with maybe 10% choosing food with no meat. You're required to operate at 100% mark up after staff costs and can't afford waste in any significant quantity. You have a small team of zero hours contract chefs on minimum wage whose experience is limited. What would you put on?
Rissotto/ veg paella
roast veg
Baked potatoes, with veg chilli/curry
Rissotto/ veg paella
roast veg
Baked potatoes, with veg chilli/curry
Which would piss off 80% of the punters ensuring you don't get the contract again. Julian's menu is fine but what proportions of veg to no veg choice do you do? You could keep everyone happy by over catering and throwing a lot away, I which case you will be undercut on price by someone else who gets the contract, or you make a judgement and risk annoying meat eaters by giving them gipping veggie sausages or incurring the wrath of the veggies. Most opt for notification of fussiness in advance, which is fine until a meat eater sneaks a few veggie spring rolls away or someone who didn't bother to say in advance wants veggie food.
I don't think all meat-eaters are obligate carnivores, though some may be.
As I don't believe omnivores are obligate carnivores, I take issue with the assertion that 80% of the meat-eaters would get pissed off.
Vegan food is cheap enough for some over-catering to have little effect on margins.
It's the meat that's pricy.
This is it.I can't help thinking this problem would be solved if caterers took a bit more pride in their work, and some omnivores realised the world won't end if they have a cheese sandwich instead of a ham one.
I can't help thinking this problem would be solved if vegetarians were a little bit more cooperative.
Most meat eaters' attitude is "I'd prefer a meat dish, but I don't mind a veggie dish if there's no meat left".
In contrast vegetarians' attitude is "I absolutely MUST have a dish devoid of meat."
Just seems they're being a little bit less accomodating than meat eaters.
If you got a buffet where 80% of the people's attitude was "I'd prefer meat, but I don't mind veggie"
and the other 20%'s attitude was "I'd prefer veggie, but I don't mind meat" then you would cook 80% meat, 20% veggie, but there would be no problems if the odd person didn't notify their preference or switched, no food wastage, and no toys would be thrown out of prams.
I can't help thinking this problem would be solved if caterers took a bit more pride in their work, and some omnivores realised the world won't end if they have a cheese sandwich instead of a ham one.
(Otherwise, what's wrong with cheese AND ham sandwiches? ;) It annoys me having to take the bread off one of each and put the two halves together )
Bread is cheap.
Cheese and ham are relatively costly.
A cheese and ham sandwich would cost nearly twice as much as a plain cheese or ham sandwich.
Only if you're a meanie who makes cheese or ham sandwiches with only one slice of cheese or ham.
Rissotto/ veg paella
roast veg
Baked potatoes, with veg chilli/curry
Which would piss off 80% of the punters ensuring you don't get the contract again. Julian's menu is fine but what proportions of veg to no veg choice do you do? You could keep everyone happy by over catering and throwing a lot away, I which case you will be undercut on price by someone else who gets the contract, or you make a judgement and risk annoying meat eaters by giving them gipping veggie sausages or incurring the wrath of the veggies. Most opt for notification of fussiness in advance, which is fine until a meat eater sneaks a few veggie spring rolls away or someone who didn't bother to say in advance wants veggie food.
The other thing to do is take the meat out first (often the veggie option comes out first which results in a few people 'forgetting' that they had ordered the meat one.)Work Christmas night out, one of those corporate party nights in the function room of a large hotel. Probably 10 tables of about 30 people each in the room. All the starters come out. Fine. The meat main courses come out. I wait for the veggie main course. The meat main course is cleared away and the desserts come out. The veggies are still waiting for the veggie main course. The desserts are cleared away and all the fed people hit the dance floor. At roughly 10pm, by which time we are very hungry and very very very drunk, the veggie main courses come out, and I am presented with three carrot batons, three Brussels sprouts, three roast potatoes, and a puff pastry crescent filled with mashed potato and a couple of mushrooms.
(ooh, the food hygiene qualifications are all flooding back to me now…)
The other thing to do is take the meat out first (often the veggie option comes out first which results in a few people 'forgetting' that they had ordered the meat one.)Work Christmas night out, one of those corporate party nights in the function room of a large hotel. Probably 10 tables of about 30 people each in the room. All the starters come out. Fine. The meat main courses come out. I wait for the veggie main course. The meat main course is cleared away and the desserts come out. The veggies are still waiting for the veggie main course. The desserts are cleared away and all the fed people hit the dance floor. At roughly 10pm, by which time we are very hungry and very very very drunk, the veggie main courses come out, and I am presented with three carrot batons, three Brussels sprouts, three roast potatoes, and a puff pastry crescent filled with mashed potato and a couple of mushrooms.
Rissotto/ veg paella
roast veg
Baked potatoes, with veg chilli/curry
Which would piss off 80% of the punters ensuring you don't get the contract again. Julian's menu is fine but what proportions of veg to no veg choice do you do? You could keep everyone happy by over catering and throwing a lot away, I which case you will be undercut on price by someone else who gets the contract, or you make a judgement and risk annoying meat eaters by giving them gipping veggie sausages or incurring the wrath of the veggies. Most opt for notification of fussiness in advance, which is fine until a meat eater sneaks a few veggie spring rolls away or someone who didn't bother to say in advance wants veggie food.
Ask for menu choices in advance, if it's only 200 people. For the inevitable few who forget to order in advance, the surplus will be in the mass things (like the spinach or the tomato sauce) rather than the countable things like sausages.
The other thing to do is take the meat out first (often the veggie option comes out first which results in a few people 'forgetting' that they had ordered the meat one.)
If we're running a cafe / restaurant rather than a catering service, keep everything frozen. Batches of sausages can be defrosted and cooked as the day goes on and more can be ordered at short notice if demand is higher than anticipated. Likewise making up a huge batch of tomato sauce or spinach for the sag gosht / aloo, the lamb or spuds can then be added at will and the leftover sauce can be frozen or kept fresh for the next couple of days.
The only thing that wouldn't work for is the salads which will have to be made to order although the individual components can be prepped in advance and surplus can be kept refrigerated.
(ooh, the food hygiene qualifications are all flooding back to me now…)
I was making dish suggestions that would span vegetarian-vegan-lactose/gluten intolerant.Rissotto/ veg paella
roast veg
Baked potatoes, with veg chilli/curry
Which would piss off 80% of the punters ensuring you don't get the contract again. Julian's menu is fine but what proportions of veg to no veg choice do you do? You could keep everyone happy by over catering and throwing a lot away, I which case you will be undercut on price by someone else who gets the contract, or you make a judgement and risk annoying meat eaters by giving them gipping veggie sausages or incurring the wrath of the veggies. Most opt for notification of fussiness in advance, which is fine until a meat eater sneaks a few veggie spring rolls away or someone who didn't bother to say in advance wants veggie food.
I don't think all meat-eaters are obligate carnivores, though some may be.
As I don't believe omnivores are obligate carnivores, I take issue with the assertion that 80% of the meat-eaters would get pissed off.
Vegan food is cheap enough for some over-catering to have little effect on margins.
It's the meat that's pricy.
This is it.
I can't help thinking this problem would be solved if vegetarians were a little bit more cooperative.
....
...
and no toys would be thrown out of prams.
Forgive me, but are you taking the piss?I don't think all meat-eaters are obligate carnivores, though some may be.
As I don't believe omnivores are obligate carnivores, I take issue with the assertion that 80% of the meat-eaters would get pissed off.
Vegan food is cheap enough for some over-catering to have little effect on margins.
It's the meat that's pricy.
This is it.
I can't help thinking this problem would be solved if vegetarians were a little bit more cooperative.
Most meat eaters' attitude is "I'd prefer a meat dish, but I don't mind a veggie dish if there's no meat left".
In contrast vegetarians' attitude is "I absolutely MUST have a dish devoid of meat."
Just seems they're being a little bit less accomodating than meat eaters.
If you got a buffet where 80% of the people's attitude was "I'd prefer meat, but I don't mind veggie"
and the other 20%'s attitude was "I'd prefer veggie, but I don't mind meat" then you would cook 80% meat, 20% veggie, but there would be no problems if the odd person didn't notify their preference or switched, no food wastage, and no toys would be thrown out of prams.
Risotto is easily cocked up, often bland, often made with non-risotto rice, and too common as the default veggie option. Also, it takes badly to heat lamps. My heart sinks a little when I see mushroom risotto as the only available veggie option because it usually means the caterers are inept, unimaginative, and have probably bollocksed up the meat options too. Which is of course deeply unfair to the places which produce really nice veggie risottos.I'm our household default rice cook. It's something I am, somehow, able to cook reliably well and my wife can't. But even having lived in South India for three years (or was it three decades or something?) I have never learnt which sort of rice is supposed to be for what. It's really pretty adaptable stuff, IMO. (we usually used jeera rice, which is for, well, jeera rice! a good do-it-all option)
Charlotte had one somewhere which they'd made with pudding rice for some reason.
Ben, do you think that Muslims in a town that hasn't a mosque should just Christian-up and attend a church instead? You seem to have missed the point that, for whatever reason, vegetarianism is a thought-out position. Eating meat violates that. Nothing violates a meat-eater's position, except possibly some of your arguments. This is not to say that vegetarians are "right" and animal-eaters "wrong". Plenty of the latter have thought about the options and either stayed or reverted to their position. Nevertheless, it is, like many other attitudes, a default poaition in society at large and it needs challenging.
Most of the chain coffee shops do! In London, anyway, not tried to get one anywhere else. Pret, Starbucks, Nero, Eat and the tragic hipster coffee shops all offer soya milk hot drinks. I tend to gravitate to Pret because they use organic cow juice which has some minimum welfare standards for the cows.
I would have thought soya milk was an unethical choice what with them cutting down the Amazon to grow it the US and Candian's using GM soya.But those are your ethics! Woofage's are, presumably, different. I drink tea black myself, but that's a taste choice not an ethical one.
It will depend in part on the brand. One of the more common is Provamel (which is what I use), which claims to source its soya from "small farmers who farm organically, away from rainforest areas and without the use of chemical and artificial fertilisers". Of course, they wouldn't say otherwise, but soya for beef farming does not necessarily work its way into the soya milk supply chain. The net effect of reducing the dependency on cattle (both dairy and beef) is likely to be much more environmentally beneficial than costly.Cattle don't eat much soya, they don't need much vegetable protein, getting theirs from the action of bacteria in the rumen. The soya is for all the pigs, who being possessed of a different digestive tract, need more protein, and we, squeamishly (and sensibly, tbh) prefer them to get it from plant sources.
I would have thought soya milk was an unethical choice what with them cutting down the Amazon to grow it the US and Candian's using GM soya.
Now come on Julian you're spoiling a perfectly good argument by actually knowing what you're talking about. That's simply not fair!
Slightly related to this topic: Costa will make (hot) drinks with soya milk in place of cow's milk if you ask. Mrs W has a slight intolerance to dairy so that's where we usually go. Shame more establishments don't offer this option.
^^ All of that is better with some shredded ham :) :p
^^ All of that is better with some shredded ham :) :p
A recent trip to the US reminded me that bacon is the universal seasoning
Strange. One of the reasons I liked going veggie was because of how boring meals are when they're. 'meat and something'.
You misunderstand vegetarian cookery completely. It's a common mistake for habitual meat eaters to make.
I just don't get it. Do people really feel the need for meat so badly?
And maybe look at the smiley, and the fact that a lot of the discussion in the thread is about the fact that as a vegetarian you are undoubtedly familiar with the 'meat and something with the meat taken away' menu item?
At least, that was the context I read it in Tewdric, hope that was how it was intended - made oi larf!
And maybe look at the smiley, and the fact that a lot of the discussion in the thread is about the fact that as a vegetarian you are undoubtedly familiar with the 'meat and something with the meat taken away' menu item?
At least, that was the context I read it in Tewdric, hope that was how it was intended - made oi larf!
I gave up with being a vegetarian because the selection was boring and everywhere I went I was the special needs food boy destined to have that single item on the menu. I'm happy to eat food without meat, it's just that the standard of veggie catering is dull. It's the land of an endless ankle-deep trudge through monochrome paddies of mushroom risotto. There's the deep-fried goats cheese and cranberry sauce. There's goats cheese everywhere. Vegetarians are used to dispose of goats cheese. Once they're full, they drop them in a deep sea trench or seal underground for the next couple of millennia until they're safe. It's a conspiracy I tell you. Pasta sauces that are a vague red sludge that might be some byproduct from a long-banned industrial process capable of wiping out entire aquatic ecosystems. Curries where the veg are so stewed that they may have started the cooking during the Raj. Certainly that was when the spices could have last passed for fresh.
Then there's cheese. Like any self-respecting man, my happiness is generally assured through the possession of a block of a cheddar the size of the car battery. But after a couple of years, even cheese starts to get a bit tired, and that's putting a major disrespect on the cheese. Every sandwich is cheese. If you're lucky, there's humus, and hell after fifteen thousand cheese sandwiches it sounds good. Until you realise you're chewing through a sandwich that appears to be filled with clay. And oh look, they put some cream cheese in it. That's not the end of it, two hours later you'll fart yourself into a low Earth orbit and leave behind the kind of smell that causes Mother Nature to unfriend you. Even gravity won't welcome you back.
Perhaps if decent veggie food was much more readily available in places like Wetherspoons, then I'd be more vegetarian than I am now.
Equally, meat eaters get pretty bored of the smug self righteous moral high ground stance of vegetarians...And maybe look at the smiley, and the fact that a lot of the discussion in the thread is about the fact that as a vegetarian you are undoubtedly familiar with the 'meat and something with the meat taken away' menu item?
At least, that was the context I read it in Tewdric, hope that was how it was intended - made oi larf!
OK, perhaps I misread. But I'm very bored of patronising attitudes from meat eaters. I've had years of that crap, and perhaps it isn't as funny or original as Tewdric imagines.
But I'm very bored of patronising attitudes from meat eaters.
Equally, meat eaters get pretty bored of the smug self righteous moral high ground stance of vegetarians...
| OTHER DINER 1: | So, how long have you been a vegetarian then? |
| ME: | *does inward sigh* Oh, um, er *does quick mental calculation*, about 30 years. |
| OTHER DINER 1: | Wow, that's a long time. So why don't you eat meat? |
| ME: | Well, the main reason I don't is because I haven't for the last 30 years or so. |
| OTHER DINER 1: | ? |
| ME: | I mean it's become a habit. It's part of who I am. |
| OTHER DINER 1: | ? But why did you stop eating meat in the first place? Was it for moral reasons? |
| ME: | Well, yes I suppose it was. *Tells story of why I turned veggie as a 13 year old in 1981* |
| OTHER DINER 2, MALE, IN HIS LATE 50s: | My wife usually cooks me vegetarian at home. But I like to have a bit of meat when I'm out. But I have to watch my weight. Usually just a bit of chicken or fish. Although it's nice to have a steak now and then as a treat. |
| OTHER DINER 3: | They can do amazing things with Quorn these days. Do you like those Linda McCartney sausages? |
| ME: | Um, not very much. |
| OTHER DINER 2: | And why do those vegetarians who eat fish call themselves vegetarians? |
| ME: | Um, I don't really know. |
| OTHER DINER 1: | Are you one of those strict vegetarians who won't wear leather shoes or eat eggs? |
| ME: | Did anyone see that paper this morning on the transformative hermeneutics of quantum gravity? |
I really don't like moralising or being moralised at about food when at the dinner table, and the novelty of having to justify my food choices has worn off a little.It's a breach of The Underpants Rule (http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/the-underpants-rule-and-you/).
I would have thought soya milk was an unethical choice what with them cutting down the Amazon to grow it ...Apart from the traditional areas in southern Brazil (in the Parana & Uruguay basin, draining south into the Rio de la Plata) & Argentina, soybeans in S. America are mostly grown in the Cerrado, & that's the big expansion area. Some of that drains into the Amazon basin, but there's no rainforest. Some savannah, some scrub & dryish forest. Needs fertilising before soybeans can be grown.
I really don't like moralising or being moralised at about food when at the dinner table, and the novelty of having to justify my food choices has worn off a little.It's a breach of The Underpants Rule (http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/the-underpants-rule-and-you/).
But I'm very bored of patronising attitudes from meat eaters.Equally, meat eaters get pretty bored of the smug self righteous moral high ground stance of vegetarians...
I really don't like moralising or being moralised at about food when at the dinner table, and the novelty of having to justify my food choices has worn off a little. I have lost count of the number of dining conversations that broadly do the following:
Picture the scene at an academic conference dinner. Round tables that seat 12 people each, most of whom don't really know each other very well if at all. I am ceremoniously marked as The Vegetarian as my meal is delivered either five minutes before or five minutes after everyone else's...
OTHER DINER 1: So, how long have you been a vegetarian then? ME: *does inward sigh* Oh, um, er *does quick mental calculation*, about 30 years. OTHER DINER 1: Wow, that's a long time. So why don't you eat meat? ME: Well, the main reason I don't is because I haven't for the last 30 years or so. OTHER DINER 1: ? ME: I mean it's become a habit. It's part of who I am. OTHER DINER 1: ? But why did you stop eating meat in the first place? Was it for moral reasons? ME: Well, yes I suppose it was. *Tells story of why I turned veggie as a 13 year old in 1981* OTHER DINER 2, MALE, IN HIS LATE 50s: My wife usually cooks me vegetarian at home. But I like to have a bit of meat when I'm out. But I have to watch my weight. Usually just a bit of chicken or fish. Although it's nice to have a steak now and then as a treat. OTHER DINER 3: They can do amazing things with Quorn these days. Do you like those Linda McCartney sausages? ME: Um, not very much. OTHER DINER 2: And why do those vegetarians who eat fish call themselves vegetarians? ME: Um, I don't really know. OTHER DINER 1: Are you one of those strict vegetarians who won't wear leather shoes or eat eggs? ME: Did anyone see that paper this morning on the transformative hermeneutics of quantum gravity?
To be fair to 'Spoons, their veggie offerings aren't actually too bad for a bargain-bucket pub menu via Brake Bros. I expect more from places that charge more and quite often, I get really good home made meals. When it comes to chain pubs, I suspect that you're probably doing the hungry cyclist thing of looking at the pounds/calories/deliciousness ratio, doing the math and going with the meaty options.
When you constrain yourself to the flesh-free sections of their menu, it could be much worse. I remember vegetarian pub grub in the early nineties when it consisted almost entirely largely of a ploughmans' lunch with the ham scoffed off the plate by the barman as he walked between the kitchen and my table...
What used to piss me off most was when I went self-catering near Marmande. I realised that, far from the impression you'd get from the restaurants, France is the best place in the world to be a vegan, with fantastic produce easily available.The French have enough trouble coming to terms with the concept of vegetarian never mind vegan.
Eating out for vegans - try Wagamama, Indian food, Wetherspoons and dust.
I always have a spicy beanburger in Burger King, because I like them. The cashier's face always falls because this involves a once-a-month excursion to the back of the freezer to find one, and I get looked at by the guy doing the frying as if I'm up there with Gary and Jimmy in the perversion stakes. They're not even on the menu over the tills these days. I need to get an "I am not a vegetarian but..." t-shirt.Must be a Swindon thing. Who's going to read a menu in Swindon? Triggered by this, as I was passing Burger King in the middle of Bristle the other day, I went in to check - and not only is the bean burger on the menu, the veggie section is top of the list! Mind you, it didn't actually say "spicy".
Haven't been yet, but the former Yaohan Plaza/Oriental City near you has re-opened as Bang Bang :)
I confess I've cut my cheeky Nandos as I'm only eating certified and free roaming happy chickens but indeed the last time I was tempted by the piri piri, it was rather expensive for what seemed like it ought to be a 'cheap' meal (I could have eaten in a decent restaurant for not much more). It's pretty much fast food, not your haughty cousin.
Basically, Nandos is a cunning disguisedly Harvester.