Author Topic: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London  (Read 2533 times)

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #25 on: 23 April, 2024, 05:45:31 pm »
My attention was grabbed by this sentence:
Quote
Not least, I re-read my dissertation on worship as a physical experience, and I loved hearing Dr Paula Gooder speak at St Paul’s, she wrote a wonderful book on the relationship between religion and the human body, and I learned from her that the neo-platonic concept of separation of body and soul are not the Jewish way of seeing humanity: we are not a soul trapped in an incarnated body… we’re more of an animated personality.
I'm interested in what you mean by "an animated personality" and how this relates to the "the Jewish way of seeing humanity"? Obviously you could tell me to read her book, but I'm hoping for a simple paragraph that might persuade me I have a chance of understanding the book!
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Graeme

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Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #26 on: 23 April, 2024, 07:12:43 pm »
My attention was grabbed by this sentence:
Quote
Not least, I re-read my dissertation on worship as a physical experience, and I loved hearing Dr Paula Gooder speak at St Paul’s, she wrote a wonderful book on the relationship between religion and the human body, and I learned from her that the neo-platonic concept of separation of body and soul are not the Jewish way of seeing humanity: we are not a soul trapped in an incarnated body… we’re more of an animated personality.
I'm interested in what you mean by "an animated personality" and how this relates to the "the Jewish way of seeing humanity"? Obviously you could tell me to read her book, but I'm hoping for a simple paragraph that might persuade me I have a chance of understanding the book!

Paula wrote a very accessible book called "Body" which I was reading as source material for my dissertation several years ago. I was looking for arguments around the idea that worship could be physical rather than intellectual... ie - could I go for a bike ride and call it worship? Not saying that going for a bike ride is Christian worship, but exploring whether, if the intention was right, it could be.

I discovered a lot of neo platonic influence in my tutors, in books, and in a popular understanding of the separation of soul and body. But Hebrew understanding - years past - wasn't aligned with Greek thinking. Early Jewish faith didn't have a concept of the separation of soul and body (according to Paula), rather that humanity is created whole and indivisible. Hebrew (and by extension Christian) creation stories don't have a narrative of earthy vessels brought to life by the addition of a soul. There is no soul: only a human, a personality living a breathing as one indivisible unit.

I don't know if I'm helping or just rewording what I've already written.

I think the original body/soul idea was about encouraging Greeks to fight in wars confident that they would go to heaven as a soul when their body died. I think it started out as theatre, which later became popular understanding... and this body/soul fiction of Plato still persists today.

Hebrew / Jewish faith didn't originally see it that way. I don't know whether that's changed. Christians are certainly swayed by it and it causes a massive amount of confusion about death, resurrection etc.

A little from the blurb about Paula Gooder's book:

The word ‘spirituality’ is notoriously difficult to define or tie down. It is often used in a relatively vague way to refer to the inner relationship between one’s ‘spirit’ or ‘soul’ and God. The implication is that people only relate to God with their ‘inner’ being (the soul/spirit) and not with any other part of who they are. There is a lurking influence of Neo-Platonism within Christian thinking that tends to assume that the material is bad and the spiritual good; that there is a gaping hole between our inner and our outer selves and that the proper location of devotion is our inner being. There is a further assumption that, especially in the writings of Paul, the soul/spirit is to be placed in the ‘good’ category while opposite it, in the ‘bad’ category, is the body/flesh – leaving the question of what is meant by heart and mind largely ignored.

Kim

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Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #27 on: 23 April, 2024, 10:50:08 pm »
It actually made me think of one of my own favourite (much shorter) rides, which includes a short but steep hill just outside Gloucester. Heading back south, you crest the hill and get your first view of the city, which is dead flat (as well as obviously much, much smaller than London) and I'm still struck how, in 2024, the tallest building is still the cathedral.

That may be a deliberate planning thing, like in that Canterbury that they have now, where the Arch Bish has some sort of veto over large erections and anagrams of "fuck".

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #28 on: 24 April, 2024, 04:05:03 pm »
I don't know if I'm helping or just rewording what I've already written.
Both. You're adding more, but also just rewording can often be helpful.

I've sent a message about this to someone I know who recently converted to Judaism, but he hasn't replied yet. Not that I'd expect him to know, necessarily – he hasn't actually AFAIK undergone a formal conversion, just read a bit and started following various dietary and other Jewish rules. And it's just occurred to me ask someone else I know, who's an ordained Druid (I didn't know till earlier this year druids had ordination, but apparently they do; I think you even have to pass an exam!).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #29 on: 24 April, 2024, 04:06:44 pm »
It actually made me think of one of my own favourite (much shorter) rides, which includes a short but steep hill just outside Gloucester. Heading back south, you crest the hill and get your first view of the city, which is dead flat (as well as obviously much, much smaller than London) and I'm still struck how, in 2024, the tallest building is still the cathedral.

That may be a deliberate planning thing, like in that Canterbury that they have now, where the Arch Bish has some sort of veto over large erections and anagrams of "fuck".
Perhaps, but also Gloucester is not a large city, has no financial or similar industry to send up skyscrapers, and relatively low property prices. And of course being so flat emphasises it.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Graeme

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Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #30 on: 24 April, 2024, 04:39:40 pm »
I don't know if I'm helping or just rewording what I've already written.
Both. You're adding more, but also just rewording can often be helpful.

I've sent a message about this to someone I know who recently converted to Judaism, but he hasn't replied yet. Not that I'd expect him to know, necessarily – he hasn't actually AFAIK undergone a formal conversion, just read a bit and started following various dietary and other Jewish rules. And it's just occurred to me ask someone else I know, who's an ordained Druid (I didn't know till earlier this year druids had ordination, but apparently they do; I think you even have to pass an exam!).

Is there something that is niggling at you about this? Something you're trying to wrap your head around?

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #31 on: 24 April, 2024, 04:49:30 pm »
It actually made me think of one of my own favourite (much shorter) rides, which includes a short but steep hill just outside Gloucester. Heading back south, you crest the hill and get your first view of the city, which is dead flat (as well as obviously much, much smaller than London) and I'm still struck how, in 2024, the tallest building is still the cathedral.

That may be a deliberate planning thing, like in that Canterbury that they have now, where the Arch Bish has some sort of veto over large erections and anagrams of "fuck".

I think that's something of an urban myth.  The Cathedral authorities will probably be statutory consultees but they won't have a veto as such.  The main protection for the Cathedral and the city skyline will come from the designation of World Heritage status, underpinned by the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990 and the Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979, the various Planning Acts, together with the National Planning Policy Framework and Circular 07/09 and the council's Local Plan.  There will be protected views of the Cathedral which will prevent high rise buildings from being built nearby.

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I completely agree with Reg.

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Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #32 on: 24 April, 2024, 05:03:24 pm »
I don't know if I'm helping or just rewording what I've already written.
Both. You're adding more, but also just rewording can often be helpful.

I've sent a message about this to someone I know who recently converted to Judaism, but he hasn't replied yet. Not that I'd expect him to know, necessarily – he hasn't actually AFAIK undergone a formal conversion, just read a bit and started following various dietary and other Jewish rules. And it's just occurred to me ask someone else I know, who's an ordained Druid (I didn't know till earlier this year druids had ordination, but apparently they do; I think you even have to pass an exam!).

Is there something that is niggling at you about this? Something you're trying to wrap your head around?
Not really, just curiousity.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Graeme

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Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #33 on: 24 April, 2024, 06:06:26 pm »
I don't know if I'm helping or just rewording what I've already written.
Both. You're adding more, but also just rewording can often be helpful.

I've sent a message about this to someone I know who recently converted to Judaism, but he hasn't replied yet. Not that I'd expect him to know, necessarily – he hasn't actually AFAIK undergone a formal conversion, just read a bit and started following various dietary and other Jewish rules. And it's just occurred to me ask someone else I know, who's an ordained Druid (I didn't know till earlier this year druids had ordination, but apparently they do; I think you even have to pass an exam!).

Is there something that is niggling at you about this? Something you're trying to wrap your head around?
Not really, just curiousity.
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ElyDave

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Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #34 on: 24 April, 2024, 09:05:03 pm »
It actually made me think of one of my own favourite (much shorter) rides, which includes a short but steep hill just outside Gloucester. Heading back south, you crest the hill and get your first view of the city, which is dead flat (as well as obviously much, much smaller than London) and I'm still struck how, in 2024, the tallest building is still the cathedral.

That may be a deliberate planning thing, like in that Canterbury that they have now, where the Arch Bish has some sort of veto over large erections and anagrams of "fuck".

I don't think its in any way an accident that Ely Cathedral is on the only 'ill for miles around.  It does come in dead handy though when trying to get your bearings
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Graeme

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Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #35 on: 27 April, 2024, 08:55:37 am »
It actually made me think of one of my own favourite (much shorter) rides, which includes a short but steep hill just outside Gloucester. Heading back south, you crest the hill and get your first view of the city, which is dead flat (as well as obviously much, much smaller than London) and I'm still struck how, in 2024, the tallest building is still the cathedral.

That may be a deliberate planning thing, like in that Canterbury that they have now, where the Arch Bish has some sort of veto over large erections and anagrams of "fuck".

I think that's something of an urban myth.  The Cathedral authorities will probably be statutory consultees but they won't have a veto as such.  The main protection for the Cathedral and the city skyline will come from the designation of World Heritage status, underpinned by the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990 and the Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979, the various Planning Acts, together with the National Planning Policy Framework and Circular 07/09 and the council's Local Plan.  There will be protected views of the Cathedral which will prevent high rise buildings from being built nearby.

Radio 4 this morning... the shadowy forces that prevent large erections revealed themselves... duh duh durrrrr: Griff Rhys Jones!

Salvatore

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Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #36 on: 27 April, 2024, 11:12:50 am »
It may be coincidence or planning, but while tile-hunting some time ago I came across this view of Oxford which gives the impression that it is nothing but a collection of dreaming spires set in a rural idyll, without any sprawling housing estates or car factories.

Quote
et avec John, excellent lecteur de road-book, on s'en est sortis sans erreur

ElyDave

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Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #37 on: 27 April, 2024, 03:51:19 pm »
I wonder when that was taken, it's still quite low rise, but you might see more concrete these days.

If you could find a high spot you could have a similar view of Cambridge, just don't get Addenbrookes or Girton in the picture
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Salvatore

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Re: Pilgrimage Symposium, 17/Apr/24, London
« Reply #38 on: 27 April, 2024, 05:06:32 pm »
I wonder when that was taken, it's still quite low rise, but you might see more concrete these days.

May 21st 2019 at 9:36 a.m.
Quote
et avec John, excellent lecteur de road-book, on s'en est sortis sans erreur