Author Topic: 8-speed derailleurs  (Read 2832 times)

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
8-speed derailleurs
« on: 07 June, 2019, 02:00:45 pm »
The rear derailleur on my tourer is a bit worn out, needs replaced. What are the options?
It has an 8-speed 11-32 cassette, with Shimano Sora STIs. Currently has a Shimano Altus derailleur.

Seems not many specific 8-speed derailleurs available. Will a 9-speed one work OK?
Are Shimano road and MTB 8/9 speed compatible with each other (assuming enough capacity)?

Some of the newer MTB derailleurs are "Shadow", not sure what difference that makes. Is it just low-profile style.

Should I just buy the Deore M592 Shadow? Or anything better?

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #1 on: 07 June, 2019, 02:12:50 pm »
Up to 9sp MTB and 10 sp road (except Tiagra 4700) will work fine. The shadow design has the same cable pull, so should be fine, though check which one you are getting as some of the MTB ones don't have a cable adjuster on the derailleur - it looks like the M592 is one of them. The shadow design is supposed to stick out less than a standard design so get bashed a little less often.

I would probably suggest the Deore M591 if you want Deore. It's a non shadow design, but does have the barrel adjuster.
Climbs like a sprinter, sprints like a climber!

Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #2 on: 07 June, 2019, 02:29:45 pm »
not that they have the capacity anyway, but 6/7/8s Dura-Ace RDs also have a different shift ratio to other shimano RDs.


XT shadow RD-M772 is super quality. No barrel adjuster though.

cheers

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #3 on: 07 June, 2019, 03:18:50 pm »
Thanks. Hadn't noticed the lack of barrel adjuster. The main problem with my old derailleur is the barrel adjuster has seized up.
Might as well get the Deore M591, slightly cheaper anyway.

Or looks like the Alivio M4000 Shadow has a barrel adjuster, is it any good?

Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #4 on: 07 June, 2019, 03:27:57 pm »
RD-M4000 is a very good mech for the money. It has a lot of steel parts in it; these are made thin, light and bendy rather than thick and heavy. This means that if the RD gets bent, with RD-M4000 you have an above average chance of straightening it and carrying on.

cheers

Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #5 on: 08 June, 2019, 04:09:12 pm »
I thought 9-speed chains were a different size from 8-speed, so the RD would not be compatible.  I'm guessing I'm wrong as Brucey hasn't raised it.
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #6 on: 08 June, 2019, 06:51:36 pm »
8s chain runs through 9s RDs quite nicely. It even runs through most 10s mechs too.

cheers

Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #7 on: 08 June, 2019, 07:00:13 pm »
What I want to know is, has Brucey actually tried all these combos, or he is just very adept at trawling a gazillion obscure internet sites and collating the info and having the extraordinary ability to remember it all?
Rust never sleeps

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #8 on: 08 June, 2019, 07:08:42 pm »
I was running the newest Claris until last November. Absolutely fine with it no dramas at all. Did a few 200s and a 300 and a tour to Germany on it no problems.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD



Ban cars.

Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #9 on: 08 June, 2019, 09:49:58 pm »
What I want to know is, has Brucey actually tried all these combos, or he is just very adept at trawling a gazillion obscure internet sites and collating the info and having the extraordinary ability to remember it all?

to  much time spent in the shed fiddling about, I reckon.

I first ran 8s chain through a 9s mech about 20 years ago; RD-M750 I think, with shimano 8s HG chain.  IIRC they use the same pulleys in 9s and 10s XT/Ultegra mechs, so, barring odd cambers on the side plates, that normally works OK too.

Re RD-M4000; I didn't bend it but one of those holds my personal record for 'the most mangled (modern) RD that I have made straight again'.    In an ideal world, one simply buys new stuff when old stuff breaks; it's not difficult. But sod's law says that you don't always have that choice and

a) knowing what might work if push comes to shove,
b) knowing how to fix stuff that is quite knackered and
c) knowing how long that repair might last

are all quite useful things.  Years ago my (practically new) pedals on my touring bike decided to clap out at a very low mileage; the bearings in both pedals had developed an alarming amount of free play very quickly. I think I was somewhere in Switzerland at the time and it was late on a Saturday when I discovered the problem. The chances of buying new pedals the following day were nil, and I was anyway quite a long way from a bike shop.  I'd ridden hundreds of miles to be there; many mountains with inviting roads draped over them like spaghetti  beckoned me, and I didn't want to miss a day's riding.... so as night fell, I rebuilt the pedals as best I could so that at least I could try and ride the following day. It looked very much like the cones hadn't been hardened properly, but the bearing surfaces looked as if they had worn in such a way as the load might be shared between several balls if the bearings were adjusted correctly. Lots of sparkly bits of metal came out.  I wasn't optimistic but I cleaned everything, checked the balls, applied fresh grease and hoped for the best. 

Well, to my surprise the pedals worked OK the following day, and the next. Many cols were ridden. I went past a bike shop the day after and I didn't bother to buy replacement pedals.  In fact the pedals were still working about two thousand miles later and I think I sold the bike with them still attached, telling the new owner 'they wouldn't last for ever'. I was right; some swine pinched the bike mere weeks later.

Anyway I've usually got various comparable  'horrible experiments' underway; despite this it has been quite along time since I have been stopped by a conventional  mechanical problem; I've had to walk home several times in the last eight years; once through lack of booting fabric and a particularly big hole in the tyre,  and three times because the frameset broke. In all three cases the frame broke because it was badly made, and in two cases I should have spotted the crack but didn't. In the third case the cracks were hidden from view.  In all three cases I became alarmed at the way the bike was feeling and I climbed off the bike before it failed catastrophically.

[edit; I also broke a rear axle in an IGH; it had done about 70000 miles.]

 By the time I have figured everything out I shall be so old and decrepit I shan't be able to ride a bike any more... ho hum....

cheers

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #10 on: 08 June, 2019, 11:19:00 pm »
My 10 speed 105 rear mech had done around 30k miles with 8 speed chains running through it.  I haven't noticed them not fitting yet so I guess they fit.

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #11 on: 09 June, 2019, 02:51:09 pm »
I have run 10 sp chains through a 9 sp sora 3500 mech, and 8 sp chains through everything from a 7 speed tourney one to a 105 5701 GS. My current touring bike has a 9sp sora 3400 front derailleur, R2030 claris shifters, and an 8 sp alivio M410 rear derailleur with a "10sp" 5700 top jockey wheel as it was spare in my bits box (which means 11t rather than 12t).

In almost all cases, if shimano say it will work then you can be very confident it will. You can quite often push a bit further than that as well. The only annoying thing I've found so far is it's very difficult to avoid cable rub on a 9sp triple front derailleur with an 8sp chain. It shifts fine though.
Climbs like a sprinter, sprints like a climber!

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #12 on: 09 June, 2019, 03:57:50 pm »
I thought 9-speed chains were a different size from 8-speed, so the RD would not be compatible.  I'm guessing I'm wrong as Brucey hasn't raised it.
Yes, 8sp are wider than later chains (I think!). But the rear cages don't seem to have gotten(significantly) narrower.

This is rather handy! My google-fu can't find ny details, but I see no benefits in doubting it :P
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Carlosfandango

  • Yours fragrantly.
Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #13 on: 11 June, 2019, 10:49:55 am »
Thanks. Hadn't noticed the lack of barrel adjuster. The main problem with my old derailleur is the barrel adjuster has seized up.


SJS cycles sell Shimano barrel adjusters, just a few quid. I resurrected my old 9 speed derailleur with one, it's smoother than my 11 speed.

Might save you the cost of a new derailleur.

Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #14 on: 06 September, 2019, 03:27:47 pm »
And can I run an 8 speed chain through a 9 speed front mech?

Reason I ask (and it's related to the original post) is that I am contemplating putting a bigger front ring on an 8 speed triple but that leads to other issues which on the face of it can only be fixed by fitting 9 speed front and rear mechs from the parts bin.

Reason being.

Existing front 7/8 speed mech can supposedly only handle a 20T difference at the front and likes a 10T middle/top distance, which would make the new 22/32/44 chainset a problem.

The rear casette is 11-34 and the existing 8 speed rear mech (Alivio 410) apparently demands a 20T difference at the front and only has a capacity of 43T, not the 45 I would have created by fitting the 44T ring.

The 9 speed front and rears I have can handle these numbers but are of course 9 speed.

Oh - the 44T ring I am considering fitting is supposedly a 9 speed so is that an issue :)

Or should I just leave as is - run all the 8 speed into the ground before complicating our lives.

Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #15 on: 06 September, 2019, 03:30:56 pm »
. The only annoying thing I've found so far is it's very difficult to avoid cable rub on a 9sp triple front derailleur with an 8sp chain. It shifts fine though.

If running a flat bar set up you can solve this with one of shimano's trimming rapidfires. Maybe not current at the mo but you can get ones in decent nick off ebay - I have a few. They can accommodate a fair bit of amateurish bike bodging. If interested, will dig out the model number/s.

Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #16 on: 06 September, 2019, 04:00:43 pm »
Oh, re your initial enquiry fuaran, this may be handy if you want to stick with "pure" 8 speed, though posting this might put a stop to the 8/9 speed debate and reduce the chances of me getting an answer to my rambling question:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192226054341

(I haven't used the seller).

It's the one I have fitted at the moment on my 8 speed flat bar tourer build.

Max rear sprocket of 34 apparently, wants a 20T difference on the front and has a max capacity of 43 according to shimano's official specs - it's the last two factors which are making me contemplate a move to a 9 speed rear (and front) while still running the bike as an 8 speed.

It's a decent enough mech though it does have the larger jockey wheels which some folk don't like.

If you are currently using an Altus I would have thought it would be OK.

It does have its own adjuster.

Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #17 on: 06 September, 2019, 04:45:14 pm »
And can I run an 8 speed chain through a 9 speed front mech?

Yes, but as the mech is slightly narrower - maybe 0.5mm - you’ll have a bit more chain rub at the extreme ratios.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: 8-speed derailleurs
« Reply #18 on: 07 September, 2019, 05:16:17 pm »
A 9 speed shimano or compatible chain works with 8 speed components just fine.  It means that you can replace a rear mech with a '9 speed' version on an 8 speed transmission if required.

Normally an 8 speed chain will work just as well but some configurations result in more chain rub and clatter.