Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: alan on 20 April, 2009, 06:32:27 pm
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I do...two lots actually.Who else? ::-)
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I guess I contribute my share when I hire a car.
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Nope, and when I did have a car I didn't have to pay anything for its "road tax" either. :)
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Yes, for the first time in my life I now own TWO cars! Two 1990 'H'-reg cars, so 2 x £195, or whatever it is at the moment, before it goes up in the budget.
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It's only the ignorant and the idiots who call it road tax. Can we change it to car tax please?
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yes I pay my council tax which pays for the upkeep of the roads.
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It's only the ignorant and the idiots who call it road tax. Can we change it to car tax please?
And people like me who own a Land Rover Tipper and a BMW K100 RS motorcycle. Both taxed
Damon.
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Alright, VED if you want to be pedantic. It'll never be road tax though, not even for you.
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It's only the ignorant and the idiots who call it road tax. Can we change it to car tax please?
I have amended the thread title...hope this meets with your approval
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It's only the ignorant and the idiots who call it road tax. Can we change it to car tax please?
I have amended the thread title...hope this meets with your approval
Oh, sorry! I did realise you said that title tongue-in-cheek, so I wasn't including you in the list.
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p.s. there's no road fund license either, not any more.
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title tongue-in-cheek,
that's why it was inside " & ".
no offence taken.
I have sloping shoulders & thick skin
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I think I'm winning so far.
I pay VED on 3 vehicles.
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I have sloping shoulders & thick skin
That will be useful on the End to End ;D
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I think I'm winning so far.
I pay VED on 3 vehicles.
Snap! (2 motorbikes & 1 car)
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I shall be sending the DVLA some money via teh interwebs this evening for the Honda to be legit on the road for another year.
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Done! (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17870.msg320025#msg320025)
And I am experiencing not-having-to-queue-up-in-the-Post-Office joy. :)
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Not me.
I sold my car (Rover Montego 2.0 Turbo Diesel) when I realised that it needed me more than I needed it.
However, that I've got more (much more) money than sense, I'm considering splashing out on something sporty and impractical. If only to keep some rain off my driveway.
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two for me too, both band L.
Joy.
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VED has a band A which is for al vehicles emitting less than 100g of CO2 per km
These vehicles include
SMART
fortwo coupé
fortwo coupé cdi
fortwo cabrio
fortwo cabrio cdi
SEAT
New Ibiza 5 door
1.4 TDI 80PS Ecomotive
New Ibiza Coupé
1.4 TDI (80PS)
FORD
New Fiesta, Post 2009 Model Year
1.6 Duratorq TDCi
VOLKSWAGEN
Polo
1.4 TDI (80 PS)
SEAT
Ibiza
1.4 TDI 80PS Ecomotive
VOLKSWAGEN
Polo
1.4 TDI (80 PS) BlueMotion
and........................................
Bicycles
The charge for VED Band A is £0.00
So in fact by the vehicle assessment standards all bicycles pay full VED for their band
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I pay vehicle excise duty on 2 cars. I also pay £160 per month council tax, income tax, insurance duty, duty on petrol, duty on beer, duty on wine, VAT, plus probably a hundred other petty little taxes introduced by Gordon fucking Brown over the last 10 years!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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I dont think he can be blamed for *all* of them, FB....
(and there's a simple way to pay less tax on beer - you wont like it, but it works ;D)
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I pay vehicle excise duty on 2 cars. I also pay £160 per month council tax, income tax, insurance duty, duty on petrol, duty on beer, duty on wine, VAT, plus probably a hundred other petty little taxes introduced by Gordon fucking Brown over the last 10 years!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Yet we still pay less tax (as a proportion of national income) than for the entire 1980s bar 1989 where we paid the same amount as in 2008. We have had two periods of low tax since 1980 - once under the Tories, 1992-1997, and once under Brown, 2002-2005. The remainder of the Brown period has been fairly average.
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I think I'm winning so far.
I pay VED on 3 vehicles.
Snap! (2 motorbikes & 1 car)
Snap! (A car, a van, and a superscoot)
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And I am experiencing not-having-to-queue-up-in-the-Post-Office joy. :)
Always worth celebrating
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2 lots (because French cars have 0 2nd hand value even though one is still a perfectly useable and almost new vehicle)
I've often wanted to get a jersey that said "yes I do pay road tax" (I don't like the term either but VED means as much to the average Little Englander as 200km) although it would probably result in even more insults from clever twats.
VED has a band A which is for al vehicles emitting less than 100g of CO2 per km
which includes; Bicycles
The charge for VED Band A is £0.00
So in fact by the vehicle assessment standards all bicycles pay full VED for their band
where did you find that? bicycles are not in a VED band because they are not vehicles
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I pay VED on my outrageously silly german motorcycle. Hardly ride the thing at the moment, too...
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VED has a band A which is for al vehicles emitting less than 100g of CO2 per km
These vehicles include
...
and........................................
Bicycles
The charge for VED Band A is £0.00
So in fact by the vehicle assessment standards all bicycles pay full VED for their band
I've just gone from 3 VED to ... errr... I think I may have topped 20 :-[
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where did you find that? bicycles are not in a VED band because they are not vehicles
WRONG. Bicycles ARE vehicles, though they may or may not come into a VED band.
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Road-runner, even the govt. make mistakes. It's still not road tax, even when wrongly referred to as such. Car tax is in common usage, in the current crushing adverts for example, so someone in the govt. has some sense.
My second point is that, ignoring VED, bicycles are vehicles, or are you disputing this?
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naming conventions are amusing.
As I've posted before, go to your local pay and display car park and look at the rules. I've seen loads (different counties) that say "cars parked here must display a valid road fund licence".
I keep meaning to write to the relevant council and ask how I can comply. :demon: :demon: :demon: :demon:
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where did you find that? bicycles are not in a VED band because they are not vehicles
Err... yes they are are - in both UK and EU law 'pedal cycles' are classed as 'road vehicles' (I would provide the relevant quotes from the legislation but I can't be arsed as they have appeared on the forum many times before).
All road vehicles in the UK are allocated to a VED band, except those which are exempted from VED - these being pedal cycles1, horse drawn vehicles and certain 'Crown'2 vehicles.
1 Contrary to popular belief, certain bicycles are subject to VED. Trade bicycles and tricycles are charged VED - see DVLA Form V149. Although I understand that no such license has been issued for many years.
2 Certain vehicles operated by the Crown or crown/government departments and agencies are exempt from VED but are required to display an exemtion certificate in teh form of a 'Exempt Tax Disc'.
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It's only the ignorant and the idiots who call it road tax. Can we change it to car tax please?
Well, BentMikey, the government's Department for Transport call it VED (annual road tax). They may be idiots but they don't refer to it as car tax, maybe because it applies to other motorised road-going vehicles too.
Err... yes they do! (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10021514)
The Government and DVLA are not much help because on their various web-sites and webpages they use differing terms for the same thing - sometimes even on the same page or in consecutive paragraphs... ::-)
Joined up government is still a pipe dream.. ;)
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1 Contrary to popular belief, certain bicycles are subject to VED. Trade bicyles and tricycles are charged VED - see DVLA Form V149.
Umm, no.
A trade licence is for a mechanically propelled vehicle, and is for the use of a motor trader or vehicle tester to use in the course of their business.
See Redirect Notice (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dvla.gov.uk%2Fmedia%2Fpdf%2Fleaflets%2Fvtl301x1%2520trade%2520licence%2520guidance.pdf&ei=UgXtSbKmI8OMjAezz7EW&usg=AFQjCNEmLBSmTRFlcXh2lhz6zk6KRHOdsQ&sig2=Iyo2RwVxru3TZske_D_yJg)
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OFFS! You are fighting like spoiled little bitches - VED is for "motor vehicles". That means any motor driven vehicle on the road that can do 15 mph without it having to be powered by a person as well. Its the same law they use to confiscate and crush
mini-moto bikes found on the road.
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OFFS! You are fighting like spoiled little bitches - VED is for "motor vehicles". That means any motor driven vehicle on the road that can do 15 mph without it having to be powered by a person as well. Its the same law they use to confiscate and crush
mini-moto bikes found on the road.
Sorry Zoiders - but Vehicle Excise Duty applies to all road vehicles. Bicycles are legally classed as road vehicles.
However, bicycles/tricyles and horse drawn vehicles are exempted from (but not excepted from) VED and therefore are not allocated to a VED band.
VED bands based on emmissions relate only to cars. Other motor vehicles are allocated on engine size or vehicle configuration.
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The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994, as amended (http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=vehicle+excise+and+registration+act&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&sortAlpha=0&TYPE=QS&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=0&activeTextDocId=2071656&parentActiveTextDocId=2071654&showAllAttributes=0&hideCommentary=0&showProsp=0&suppressWarning=1), Part I, clause 1:
(1) A duty of excise ( “vehicle excise duty") shall be charged in respect of every mechanically propelled vehicle that—
(a) is registered under this Act (see section 21), or
(b) is not so registered but is used, or kept, on a public road in the United Kingdom.
(1A) Vehicle excise duty shall also be charged in respect of every thing (whether or not it is a vehicle) that has been, but has ceased to be, a mechanically propelled vehicle and—
(a) is registered under this Act, or
(b) is not so registered but is used, or kept, on a public road in the United Kingdom.
And a bicycle, tricycle (not being a motor tricycle), or whathaveyou is not a mechanically propelled vehicle. Zoiders has it, by a count. Now, shake hands.
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...but that doesn't affect my point that a bicycle is still a vehicle.
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Yes, and none of us pedants will argue with you on that. But is it a mechanically propelled vehicle? No. VED is charged on fewer than all vehicles. "Car tax" is charged on more than just cars. "Road tax" or "Road fund licence" is charged on more than vehicles used, or kept, on the road. There's no completely, irrefragably logical name, even the proper one.
I thought all this was argued to death on u.r.c back in the mists of time, and we'd all moved on out of sheer exhaustion.
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Some of you are literally losing the thread with pedantry overtaking the purpose of the OP. ::-)
Be prepared for SORN 'd vehicles to be required to pay VED in future which they do not at the present time,possibly introduced in the next budget :(
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Be prepared for SORN 'd vehicles to be required to pay VED in future which they do not at the present time,possibly introduced in the next budget :(
Hadn't heard that :(
I'll have to scrap my Garden storage facility - a SORN'd BMW 320i >:(
I get immense satisfaction getting a free Tax Disc for my 1967 VW 8)
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My problem with the "you don't pay 'road tax', roads are paid for out of general taxation" argument is that vehicle owners still pay something extra into the general taxation pot that non-vehicle owners don't.
Of course there's no way to know or track where the individual pounds of your tax monies end up getting spent, the fact that the total amount of income tax, capital gains tax and stamp duty I've paid in my life (all going to the general taxation pot) dwarfs the amount of VED I would have paid if I'd kept a car and motorbike all of my adult life seems inconsequential.
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I pay VED on my commuter car and have my classic SORNed. If they start charging for SORN, then they will scrap a lot of old cars.
I don't know if I would have to pay it though. My car hasn't been on the road since before SORN was introduced, so unlike others, I don't have to SORN it every year, it is now officially SORNed until (if) it gets back on the road.
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Be prepared for SORN 'd vehicles to be required to pay VED in future which they do not at the present time,possibly introduced in the next budget :(
Hadn't heard that :(
I'll have to scrap my Garden storage facility - a SORN'd BMW 320i >:(
I get immense satisfaction getting a free Tax Disc for my 1967 VW 8)
You think you've got problems, Lord Montague is going to really struggle!
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My problem with the "you don't pay 'road tax', roads are paid for out of general taxation" argument is that vehicle owners still pay something extra into the general taxation pot that non-vehicle owners don't.
You can say the same about most tax regimes.
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My problem with the "you don't pay 'road tax', roads are paid for out of general taxation" argument is that vehicle owners still pay something extra into the general taxation pot that non-vehicle owners don't.
You can say the same about most tax regimes.
And about smokers and drinkers.
Equally you could say people with children take more out than people with none, but are taxed the same.
The logical conclusion is a user-pays market for provision of a much greater range of services and infrastructure than is currently they case.
Divide the cost of roads maintenance and building by the number of gallons of fuel consumed, chuck in a multiplier for vehicles which cause more damage and you have a genuine road tax where the heaviest users pay and everyone contributes indirectly at least through the cost of transported goods.
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I pay for two, and have been known to put the old tax discs in the se thru pockets of hi vis vest I sport on occasion. Yet to have any drivers notice this yet though.
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I pay for two, and have been known to put the old tax discs in the se thru pockets of hi vis vest I sport on occasion. Yet to have any drivers notice this yet though.
;D :thumbsup:
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My problem with the "you don't pay 'road tax', roads are paid for out of general taxation" argument is that vehicle owners still pay something extra into the general taxation pot that non-vehicle owners don't.
But people who don't own motor-vehicles probably pay a fair bit in public transport and taxi fares.
I'll also wager that a fair number of people on this forum pay as much in VAT on their bicycle-related purchases each year as many car-owners do in VED :P.
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My problem with the "you don't pay 'road tax', roads are paid for out of general taxation" argument is that vehicle owners still pay something extra into the general taxation pot that non-vehicle owners don't.
But people who don't own motor-vehicles probably pay a fair bit in public transport and taxi fares.
I'll also wager that a fair number of people on this forum pay as much in VAT on their bicycle-related purchases each year as many car-owners do in VED :P.
That's a bit better. Something along the lines of:-
You may pay £195 a year "road tax", but over the last 3 years I've paid at least £200 a year in VAT on my cycling purchases, therefore my cycling contributes just as much to the general taxation pot as the average VED.
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How much VAT do you think car ownership costs? Shitloads!
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How much VAT do you think car ownership costs? Shitloads!
Also a good point. I think I'll go back to my usual retort of:
"I know, it's great that I don't have to pay road tax! Look at how potholed this road is, you car drivers obviously aren't paying enough, they should double it!"
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How much VAT do you think car ownership costs? Shitloads!
But that's the customer's choice. You could buy a £100 banger, never service it, hardly use it, get lucky at MOT test time but still have to pay VED.
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My problem with the "you don't pay 'road tax', roads are paid for out of general taxation" argument is that vehicle owners still pay something extra into the general taxation pot that non-vehicle owners don't.
Not all motor-vehicle owners pay extra into the general taxation pot either. If you've got a sufficiently low CO2 emission vehicle you'll not pay into the pot either. As cyclists we currently just pay the same as any other very low CO2 emission vehicle.
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2 cars and two motorbikes....hopefully that'll reduce as I reduce the fleet.
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Not all motor-vehicle owners pay extra into the general taxation pot either. If you've got a sufficiently low CO2 emission vehicle you'll not pay into the pot either. As cyclists we currently just pay the same as any other very low CO2 emission vehicle.
I know, but imagine the extra cost for staff and administration if you made bicycles liable for VED but zero-rated. 30,000,000 (a conservative estimate) extra "vehicles" that have to be processed per year, all for not a penny of extra revenue. Either the VED of non-zero-rated vehicles would have to be increased to make the change fiscally neutral, or an admin charge to be introduced for all applications effectively making them non-zero rated.
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Only bikes, so zero.
OTOH, I've never had anyone shout "You don't pay road tax" at me.
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It's only the ignorant and the idiots who call it road tax. Can we change it to car tax please?
And people like me who own a Land Rover Tipper and a BMW K100 RS motorcycle. Both taxed
Damon.
Add me to your circle. I pay for my Mercedes :v
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Impressive. ~12 years of thread dormancy. :D >80% of adult cyclists also drive (according to CyclingUK)...
The number of people on soshul meeja who go on about giving cyclists respect when they start paying 'road tax', is actually quite alarming. This despite the fact that the roads are funded through general taxation by all tax payers - no hypothecation of fuel duty etc, VED is a motor vehicle tax based on CO2 emissions, motor vehicle use has major external cost implications (congestions etc) which apparently far exceed duty paid by motorists ...
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It's hypothecated again, according to this:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01482/
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I believe the hypothecation to the Highways Fund takes effect from April 6th. It doesn't alter the fact that all of our local roads, including many rural A roads, will continue to be funded from general (mainly local) taxation.
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That will be a point lost on the Social Media masses, I fear.
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It's hypothecated again, according to this:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01482/
Looks like it relates to the strategic road network, so Highways England motorways and major dual carriageways only.
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bit late I know but ...
if VED is hypothecated for motorways and major dual carriageways, then do we need another VED (VED-2/motor-tax) based, say on axle weight instead of on emissions, which goes towards all the social costs of motoring (lung problems, RTA costs, repairing all the railings which are regularly mown down, that sort of thing)
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Yes, perhaps. AFAICS, VED or 'vehicle tax', since 2017 seems only based on emissions in the first year (before flat rate), and by virtue of the fact that EVs are zero rated. As more and more EVs appear and the govt loses an increasingly large wedge of tax income, my guess is that changes in taxes will appear. EVs are also part of all the negative external costs of motoring e.g. congestion/collisions.
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Road pricing has to be the only way to go, surely. Even the RAC have come to that conclusion IIRC.
Weight the charge based upon : -
Emissions
Vehicle weight / number of axles
Vehicle footprint
Time of travel / Amount of congestion
Spot payments for entry to specific zones (eg London, York City centre, etc etc)
Miles driven
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Congestion - that would be interesting. Would it be cheaper to drive on a congested main road than on a nearby country lane with cyclists, pedestrians and horse riders?
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Good point. The algorithm and infrastructure will need tweaking doubtless.
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Algorithms, eh? Sounds like a job for Queen Dido of Carnage. What could possibly go wrong?
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Congestion - that would be interesting. Would it be cheaper to drive on a congested main road than on a nearby country lane with cyclists, pedestrians and horse riders?
It's always suggested that road pricing will be adjusted on the fly so that it's cheaper to avoid congestion rather than sit in a jam. Which seems back to front in many ways.
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Or charge a premium for non-locals using local roads.
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Algorithms, eh? Sounds like a job for Queen Dido of Carnage. What could possibly go wrong?
Is Al Gore still active?
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Or charge a premium for non-locals using local roads.
This are local roads for local people?
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Only bikes, so zero.
OTOH, I've never had anyone shout "You don't pay road tax" at me.
Double snap.
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Only bikes, so zero.
OTOH, I've never had anyone shout "You don't pay road tax" at me.
Double snap.
Bet they're thinking it... ;) 'You were in the middle of the road', is perhaps a more common vocalisation...
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With the green energy push to convert everyone to change to electric, they will need a review of the car tax model. Less emissions, less petrol or diesel sold where is the tax revenue going to come from? Electricity charges, Electric bikes, axle weight or motorway tolls.
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Road pricing.
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Road pricing that could be a can of worms for cycling. Car pays to drive on a road, cycling is free. Safer taxing the car🤔.
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Road pricing that could be a can of worms for cycling. Car pays to drive on a road, cycling is free. Safer taxing the car🤔.
Guessing that RPing would probably only apply to MWs & some DCs - Highways England.