Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 834853 times)

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #850 on: 19 June, 2010, 10:13:29 am »
Starbucks napkins say "Less napkins.  More plants.  More planet."  :sick:
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #851 on: 19 June, 2010, 11:18:39 am »
Just try taking out the "you and". If it still sounds right it probably is.
+ Lots.  Such a simple rule.  And it works. :thumbsup:
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #852 on: 19 June, 2010, 11:23:17 am »
Spot on, Keith. I tried explaining it to a colleague in similar terms but he still didn't get it. Some people are just irredeemable.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #853 on: 19 June, 2010, 11:25:34 am »
Just try taking out the "you and". If it still sounds right it probably is.
+ Lots.  Such a simple rule.  And it works. :thumbsup:


+ 1.

I do wish that my understanding of English grammar was better.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #854 on: 19 June, 2010, 12:10:57 pm »
The reason being, of course, that if I/me am a subject without "you and", I'm still a subject with "you and" added, and the same for an object.

Of course, the same applies elsewhere. If it's Peter's wedding, it's still his if we mention his partner, so it's Peter's and Mary's wedding, not Peter and Mary's :)

Keith

  • Dorset Coast
  • Cyclists do it Silently
    • Wessex CTC
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #855 on: 19 June, 2010, 05:14:34 pm »
Just try taking out the "you and". If it still sounds right it probably is.
+ Lots.  Such a simple rule.  And it works. :thumbsup:


The rule breaks down though in the more rural areas of the county that I inhabit, where this would be a perfectly acceptable sentence construction.

"Be you coming cycling with I?" . . . pronounced "Oi" of course.

Let us do this thing that is set out before us!

rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #856 on: 20 June, 2010, 08:29:01 pm »
Of course, the same applies elsewhere. If it's Peter's wedding, it's still his if we mention his partner, so it's Peter's and Mary's wedding, not Peter and Mary's :)
I'm not sure I agree with that.
The "apostrophe s" construct is a shorthand for "of xyz"
So "Peter and Mary's Wedding" could be rendered as "The wedding of Peter and Mary".
Whereas "Peter's and Mary's Wedding" would be "The wedding of Peter and of Mary".
Both factually correct, but the first one trips off the tongue more easily.  (It makes "Peter and Mary" a single unit that can "own" a wedding - which is what a marriage is :thumbsup:)
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #857 on: 20 June, 2010, 10:05:36 pm »
I'm not sure that's a legitimate construction. It's also open to ambiguity. For example:

"I met Peter and Mary's aunt."

How many people did I meet?

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #858 on: 20 June, 2010, 10:09:24 pm »
Surely if you were meeting different aunts, you would say "I met Peter and Mary's aunts". You could say "Peter's and Mary's aunts" but that sounds a bit, well, officious.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #859 on: 20 June, 2010, 10:20:23 pm »
I met Peter and Mary
(two people)

I met Peter and Mary's aunt
(still two people; the possessive on Mary can't affect Peter, except that he has a different companion)

I met Peter's and Mary's aunt
(one person)

I met Peter's and Mary's aunts
(at least two people but possibly more, and not clear whether any of the aunts are in common; if not then "Peter's aunts and Mary's aunts" would be one way to express it)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #860 on: 20 June, 2010, 10:23:32 pm »
Reminds me of something my English teacher used to say about men with big noses...

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Keith

  • Dorset Coast
  • Cyclists do it Silently
    • Wessex CTC
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #861 on: 21 June, 2010, 08:08:50 am »
Reminds me of something my English teacher used to say about men with big noses...

d.
+1
Careful guys, you can take these rules too far. I always read that the real strength of English was that the "schoolmasters" had not got hold of it and that consequently it stayed simple so that everybody could understand it. Unlike the French with their pedantic little Acadamie. I don't really care how many apostrophes are "correct", if the meaning is unclear then rephrase it so that it is.
I met Mary's aunt, who happens to be Peter's aunt too.
Let us do this thing that is set out before us!

Keith

  • Dorset Coast
  • Cyclists do it Silently
    • Wessex CTC
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #862 on: 21 June, 2010, 08:15:49 am »
This is a long thread but the one generic phraseology that drives me mad at the moment is the advertising speak:
"up to 50% saving"
"up to 20% off"
which of course is a completely meaningless statement. 0% falls within that catchment.
It all started with a toothpaste manufacturer in the late 70's
"Up to 30% fewer fillings"
I complained to the ASA at the time and it was upheld, but the phrase is endemic now.
Let us do this thing that is set out before us!

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #863 on: 21 June, 2010, 08:41:56 am »
I met Mary's aunt, who happens to be Peter's aunt too.

Presumably they are cousins then, as they have just got married? (or it is in Dorset, in which case they could be brother and sister?  ;D )
It is simpler than it looks.

Keith

  • Dorset Coast
  • Cyclists do it Silently
    • Wessex CTC
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #864 on: 21 June, 2010, 07:55:22 pm »
I met Mary's aunt, who happens to be Peter's aunt too.

Presumably they are cousins then, as they have just got married? (or it is in Dorset, in which case they could be brother and sister?  ;D )
I think you'll find that's Norfolk and not Darzet  :o
This is the same Mary as tried to get married but couldn't agree on who owned the ceremony. What was not made clear before though was the fact that her brother was also called Peter.
This is getting silly, I'm stopping this sketch.
Let us do this thing that is set out before us!

Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #865 on: 21 June, 2010, 07:59:27 pm »
I've just bought a cake recipe book which refers to castor sugar all the way through. I might not have bought it if I'd realised beforehand.
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


Giraffe

  • I brake for Giraffes
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #866 on: 21 June, 2010, 09:03:30 pm »
This is a long thread but the one generic phraseology that drives me mad at the moment is the advertising speak:
"up to 50% saving"
"up to 20% off"
which of course is a completely meaningless statement. 0% falls within that catchment.
It all started with a toothpaste manufacturer in the late 70's
"Up to 30% fewer fillings"
I complained to the ASA at the time and it was upheld, but the phrase is endemic now.

One shop that I didn't try had signs up: "Up to -25% discount" - looked a bit expensive to me.
2x4: thick plank; 4x4: 2 of 'em.

rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #867 on: 21 June, 2010, 09:20:57 pm »
I'm not sure that's a legitimate construction. It's also open to ambiguity. For example:

"I met Peter and Mary's aunt."

How many people did I meet?
Because of that ambiguity, I'd hope that the author would use the alternative versions:
"I met Mary's aunt and Peter."
Or even
"I met Peter, and Mary's Aunt."
if that was what was intended.
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #868 on: 21 June, 2010, 10:07:57 pm »
I agree with those who would reword to avoid ambiguity. However, Keith's wording:
Quote
I met Mary's aunt, who happens to be Peter's aunt too.
is quite a lot of extra words when just putting back the missing 's is equally unambiguous.

There is in fact no ambiguity anyway provided that the rules are followed. It's only because we can't rely on English writers to put both Peter and Mary in the same case that we have the problem in the first place. In some other languages, you couldn't get away with it.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #869 on: 22 June, 2010, 12:42:29 pm »
BBC News website: Do you really mean " Budget, Tough but far"? Your proofreaders have surpassed themselves!

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #870 on: 22 June, 2010, 12:53:26 pm »
Hehe, I noticed that one too, Helly. They've corrected it now (which took them about eight minutes).

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #871 on: 24 June, 2010, 11:34:47 pm »
I have spent the day proofreading a booklet, written by A N Other for my partner. Ten pages of booklet have generated five pages of notes. It's a pdf so we can't edit it directly.
Missing commas, overlong sentences, logical disconnects 'the wind that night was calm with occasional gusts..'
loose/lose, effect/affect mistakes, erroneous photo captions etc.
GGGGGGRRRRRRRR!

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #872 on: 24 June, 2010, 11:42:19 pm »
I do wish people would learn "loose/lose". It's amazing how many clever folks get it wrong.

Jules

  • Has dropped his aitch!
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #873 on: 25 June, 2010, 09:47:06 am »
They're losers!  Tie them to a lose cannon and loose them in the deep I  say ;D
Audax on the other hand is almost invisible and thought to be the pastime of Hobbits ....  Fab Foodie

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #874 on: 25 June, 2010, 09:54:34 am »
Playing fast and lose with the language...
Getting there...