Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => OT Knowledge => Topic started by: Mrs Pingu on 03 January, 2016, 09:52:50 pm
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No, I am not proposing to get rid of any existing lath & lime plaster wall!
So, back to the saga of my damp gable wall and chimney breast.... when the renovation team come to hack out the cement pointing and replace it with lime, I also asked if they would poke holes in the damp interior walls, remove any debris which might be causing damp bridging and then make it all nice again.
As mentioned previously, I had this wall skimmed in gypsum 12 months ago, (before I became a damp solid wall traditional building bore and realised the error of my ways). I've just spent the last few days scraping said gypsum skim coat off this wall in preparation.
What I have found is that most of the chimney breast is old L&P, but the edge of it, and the sides of the alcove abutting it are not. I assume it's some sort of gypsum plasterboard, but it's not the stuff with a paper surface.
It might help if I post a photo at this point:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1647/24067780875_684b8f137f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CEMEKe)2015-12-30_04-52-13 (https://flic.kr/p/CEMEKe) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
So you can see on the LHS the problem alcove. The point above the left of the mantelpiece where the 'white' wall stops is the interface between L&P and the other stuff.
If you look at the back of the alcove there is a large stain round where the light fitting is. This has now been stripped of gypsum back to the original lime plaster. And yet creating the alcove itself, strangely is all modern board. This appears to go up as far as a wooden bead I found embedded in the wall about 6 inches below the cornice.
At this point I stopped stripping the skim coat as I figured I might as well get rid of the plasterboard, given then it doesn't breathe.
So my current plan, when the pointing and other exterior works is done and the guy starts work inside, is to suggest they rip out the plasterboard and replace it with something more sympathetic to an old building with solid walls, which is a bit more forgiving to damp.
My initial thought was replace with lath and plaster, but I suspect that will be ££££, so I wondered if there was anything else out there I should consider.
I've been reading some Historic Scotland case studies today where they used calcium silicate board as a hygroscopic, capillary, vapour permeable insulator, but it was basically plastered on the hard (directly onto the stone wall) as insulation with lime plaster affixed to a mesh on top of it.
Given that the problem wall gets a fair bit of prevailing wind and rain i'm not sure that the moisture would go from the inside to the out rather than the other way around!
If you've made it this far, thanks for reading :thumbsup:
My plan is to paint this wall with claypaint so it's nice and breathable, BTW.
So, any old building owners used alternatives to L&P? I tried Googling but it's mostly people getting rid of L&P, not the other way around ;)
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Presumably the inglenooks/alcoves are formed within what were existing recesses either side of the chimney breast? If so, I am bit intruiged as to how could be damp unless there is something else going on apart from external pointing. You could remove the falsework altogether and reinstate the recess/es?
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I think that 'new' alcove is a replacement for an old alcove, judging by what I've seen in similar flats for sale on my street. Current suggestions for the damp there are a) from roof, b) from wall, but either way the damp refusing to budge suggests there may be debris bridging between the outer and inner surfaces, not being able to dry out with current cement pointing trapping the water.
Also a possibility is c) water coming down my downstairs neighbours flue. Don't know exactly where that runs, but it must be up there somewhere.
I.e. lots of reasons :(
ETA - I was wondering about wood wool board to replace lath, with lime plaster on top (I assume it would be quicker and therefore cheaper to install than a load of new laths), but not sure how forgiving to moisture it would be.
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Lots of new damp patches today :(
Took a look in the attic - water running down the wall, and then soaking into the floorboard which have been butted right up to the wall.
Suppose the next DIY job will be trimming those back if I can manage it. I assume that the big bit of wood lying across the top was only there as a frame for the plasterboard, and it's not going to make anything fall down if I chop it up... :-\
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The water is coming from somewhere particularly in the light of your last post. I doubt it is simply rain penetrating a 9" or above solid wall no matter how naff the weather is. Likely suspects are flashings, loose copings, missing dpc, missing or damaged cavity tray where applicable, broken water/waste pipework, leaking gutter or water not going into gutter from roof therefore cascading down into the wall, blocked rainwater pipe or some such. What is the roof detail above this wall?
Is this wall the weathered side? (prevailing wind etc)
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There is a chimney on this gable wall. Therefore no guttering or any piping of any sort. There is no dpc.
Probably most likely coming in the chimney from some direction. It was all supposed be newly cemented etc in the summer but the traditional buildings bloke reckon the slater had done a suboptimal job and the surveyor reckoned the cement around the chimney pots had been covered up rather than replaced so that's all part of the work being done in the spring.
It's not anything I didn't already know about, it just seems to be particularly bad this week.
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When they do the work pay particular attention to the flashings/soaker to the back gutter (and sides) of the Stack. A sand and cement fillet to the tiles/slates on its own is not good enough and could explain the water running down the wall in the loft. See Lead Sheet Associaion chimney flashing.
Difficult to point you at something without seeing it but the construction of the midfeathers and gathering in the chimney are also potential problem areas however running water coming into the loft points to the above sources of ingress.
If you can get the water ingress issue sorted then the subsequent issues can be dealt with accordingly.
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Again, I remain at the tender mercies of my tradespeople. This lot seem to have a nationwide rep though and do lots of historic buildings work, so fingers crossed.
So, nobody used wood wool board then?
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All I can add is that the water source needs to be addressed. We've just done that, well, about 5 different water sources*, and now we can start repairing the internal damage.
*
1 - flat roof failure
2 - flashing on stone wall abutting the flat roof loose
3 - frost damage to the stone around this flashing
4 - flashing between original gable wall and new extension pitched roof in the same condition as 2
5 - frost damage to the stone around this flashing
6 - incompetent formation of lead in gully: 12 foot length beginning to fail
7 - incompetent formation of lead in gully: split in joint almost certainly created when the lead was put down
8 - some other things
OK - so more than 5 but lots of different things. The first 5 resulted in water coming in in the same place.
Canardly speaks sense. Particularly about the risk of cement instead of lead. Are you able to stand back from the chimney (e.g. with binoculars in a neighbours) to see if there is a gap between the cement and the chimney?
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Again, I remain at the tender mercies of my tradespeople. This lot seem to have a nationwide rep though and do lots of historic buildings work, so fingers crossed.
So, nobody used wood wool board then?
If I employed a builder I would expect them to offer me advice on what needed doing; have these people no opinion?
My barn had a damp wall that only came to light when I pierced it for windows. It was a rain-facing wall so first off I repointed it. It looked a lot nicer after but was just as wet.
After much thought I realised the water was being blown in under the tiles. It is amazing how much water wind can move horizontally! After fitting deeper edge flashings the wall started to dry out. It'll take a year or two before it is completely dry being 70-80cm thick.
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After much thought I realised the water was being blown in under the tiles. It is amazing how much water wind can move horizontally! After fitting deeper edge flashings the wall started to dry out. It'll take a year or two before it is completely dry being 70-80cm thick.
As its a gable end, this is a likleyhood, as the tiles will just cap the wall - there may be no other weartherproofing (no barge boards/sifits) along that end (our 1840's cottage doesn't, I can't remember what Aberdeen tenements have on the gables)
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We have a skew at the end - see pic here (the first of the 7 images is similar) : https://www.scotlandschurchestrust.org.uk/maintain-your-church/glossary/?term=250
The cement filet which is supposed to cover up between the edge of the slates and the skew was replaced last summer. That obviously made a lot of difference, not.
The people coming to do the pointing say that the cement filet was done incorrectly as there is supposed to be an overhang at the top of the skew and the filet (guess will be lime next) is supposed to be tucked under this lip to stop rain getting in behind it, and that the previous slater did not do this but just covered up the lip. I can't see any evidence of this lip from the ground so I don't know. They also suggested that the cement joins between the blocks making up the skew need scraping out and repointing which I suspect wasn't done by the slater last year.
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Are they really re-pointing the wall at the moment ?
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We have a skew at the end - see pic here (the first of the 7 images is similar) : https://www.scotlandschurchestrust.org.uk/maintain-your-church/glossary/?term=250
The cement filet which is supposed to cover up between the edge of the slates and the skew was replaced last summer. That obviously made a lot of difference, not.
The people coming to do the pointing say that the cement filet was done incorrectly as there is supposed to be an overhang at the top of the skew and the filet (guess will be lime next) is supposed to be tucked under this lip to stop rain getting in behind it, and that the previous slater did not do this but just covered up the lip. I can't see any evidence of this lip from the ground so I don't know. They also suggested that the cement joins between the blocks making up the skew need scraping out and repointing which I suspect wasn't done by the slater last year.
I'd a join like that where my hangar meets the barn wall. It was a problem area for many reasons and water incursion had damaged the barn wall quite badly, largely due to the meltwater from snow that piled up there. In France you can buy profiles that consist of zinc with a lead strip along the edge. The lead is tucked into a convenient join (the sloping gable head, maybe) and the zinc fastened to the vertical wall. This gives a watertight base over which the mortar fillet can be added. The zinc profile is designed to hold the fillet in place. It's then an invisible modern fix and very effective. I did the work about 7 years ago after re-roofing the hangar and repairing the damaged barn wall.
Whilst it is nice to fix old building without more modern methods being used, the problem is that damp may well be one of the original features you retain!
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Are they really re-pointing the wall at the moment ?
No. Spring.
Meanwhile I've got tons more wet patches this week, probably something to do with a slate lying on the ground outside. Shall see if I can get hold of the tame roof monkey to poke something back together in the meantime....
Great time for the dehumidifier to decide that it isn't!
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You need to get that roof fixed asap and stop the rain getting in as best you can.
Glad to hear that they aren't re-pointing till it warms up.
Lath and plaster is really easy to do, there's really nothing specialised about it at all, but finding someone to actually do it without making a song and dance about it might be another matter.
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Are they really re-pointing the wall at the moment ?
No. Spring.
Meanwhile I've got tons more wet patches this week, probably something to do with a slate lying on the ground outside. Shall see if I can get hold of the tame roof monkey to poke something back together in the meantime....
Great time for the dehumidifier to decide that it isn't!
Do they know that is what you think of them? Therein could lie the answer to your difficulties ;)
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:P That's actually the 4th slater I've had, though he didn't have anything to do with the cement fillet which has apparently to come out. I've just been using him for a few weeks jobs since then.
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So, the pointing and other external works are just about finished. No doubt it's going to take the wall some time to dry out. Moving back to the internal walls...
There was a bit of miscommunication between the trad building bloke and me so it's not started yet as he's requoting. I decided to do some more archaeology which led me to this:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1533/25966648186_90e0725349_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FyzRQN)Living room archaeology (https://flic.kr/p/FyzRQN) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
So you can see I've started ripping the crappy alcove down. Looks like the original l&p walls are still there, so why bother putting the alcove back up, it just eats space.
Next question though, what on earth is the structure above the beading? It seems fairly solid, though quite damp. Don't understand why there would be this big chunk of stuff sticking out of the wall right under the ceiling.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1467/25692015100_5ca2c050a3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/F9jhZA)Living room archaeology (https://flic.kr/p/F9jhZA) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
This is looking inside the top of the alcove, the damp paper is hanging off the bottom of this structure.
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What's "the thing" made of ?
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Careful. That looks a bit like a builders bodge I discovered in our place. Check the joists and floor above at the wall - are they sound? Or, is there rot at the wall in the joists? Are these blocks to hold up the ceiling? Which have been hidden in the falsework arch? That is what had been done in my place to disguise rotted out joist ends.
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Surely the alcove used to be a press? (cupboard in the thickness of the wall for those not familiar with Scottish traditional properties).
As such it would have quite possibly been lined with tongue and groove softwood panelling rather than plastered. It would have stopped short of the ceiling because there was a door on the front with a frame round it.
(+1 that the water's probably coming from botched repair to skews and raggles where roof meets gable wall, or haunching where chimney pot meets stack, or failed flashing where chimney stack meets slate)
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That makes sense.
The bead looks the same as the bead on the curved recess on the right of the fireplace.
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The bead does look similar, but it's very clean so I suspect it is new and on top of the old wallpaper there. There are also no softwood panels back there.
I'm not sure what the 'thing' is made of, I don't think it's wood but I didn't have a right good feel and I've put the ladder away now. Once the weather goes crap again I'll take the rest of it down and look again.
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OK, I've been on tippee toes and yanked some damp paper off (note to self, scrub plaster with sugar soap). It looks like more lime plaster on the underside of the structure there (it's got lovely pink mould on it, yum), so if it's a builders bodge then it's an old one. I gave it a tap but didn't glean anything new. There's a bit of plaster coming off the front corner so I might have a tentative look behind that when I get up on the ladder.
If it is just more l&p up there I I imagine the laths are rotten.
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You need a trip upstairs to take a look and see if it's holding anything up. If you're confident that it's not, pull it all out in a mad half hour and stick it in the skip.
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I appear to have little mushrooms growing out of the mortar upstairs. Which is nice. :facepalm:
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For anyone interested in such things here is the kinder surprise chimney haunching (not replaced by the previous slater as requested, swine)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1691/25453322326_669510fe9b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/EMdVWW)Kinder surprise chimney (https://flic.kr/p/EMdVWW) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Just Chuck some cement on top, it'll be fine....
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1667/25479510745_162f1c5ac1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/EPx9Rp)Had a funny feeling some pots were unvented... (https://flic.kr/p/EPx9Rp) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Re-bedding copes:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1603/25361036852_d9123ca2fc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ED4WG5)2016-03-03_08-15-01 (https://flic.kr/p/ED4WG5) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
The project manager dude said the chimneys were all soaking inside.
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The joy of old buildings. That mushroom is probably living off the lath or a bit of buried timber underneath the plaster
The chimney looks like it'll turn out just fine, but I hope you're not getting the wicked frosts we've got at the moment. I was hoping to repoint our little stone barn, but I think I'll wait until May before I start, so its cobble duty instead.
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I woke up very early this morning with the fear that there is going to be a big pile of dry rot waiting for me behind the plaster 'thing'. Not feeling very happy today.....
Oh well, looks like Saturday is going to be horrible weather so I will be taking the rest of the alcove down and then I will have a peep behind the plaster into the 'thing'. Fingers crossed, but it did feel quite wet there so I'm feeling a bit pessimistic. :(
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Don't worry about dry rot, it takes a lot of water to get it going and if you dry the wall out it will die of DEATH.
Believe me, most of what you read about dry rot is, well.................BOLLOX. And most builders wouldn't recognise dry rot, even if it poked them in the eye.
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Took a bit more down tonight. The bit of lath I exposed looked nice and dry, can't vouch for the whole way along but I might leave further poking to the builders.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1490/25737115380_5f7511beaf_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FdirJC)Laths (https://flic.kr/p/FdirJC) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1647/25404987564_ca7d6bc86c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/EGXcGY)Getting there (https://flic.kr/p/EGXcGY) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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That looks good, and it looks like it's part of the original wall.
If you compare the lath that you've revealed with a piece of lath from another part of the building (the other side of the ceiling, from the loft, would be a good place to start), you should be able to see if it's the same or not.
Common timbers used for riven lath were Oak and Sweet Chestnut. Scots Pine has also been used for lath, but was normally sawn. I reckon you should keep the lath and plaster and repair the part you've taken off, it looks ok to me. The wall should dry out with the new pointing, repairs to the chimney and the dry heat from the wood burner.
If you're thinking of lime wash, you can get all sorts of colour from here........http://www.cornelissen.com
Pure lime putty mixed 50/50 with water works well, but if you want to paint timber or any other material with it, you'll need casein to mix in. I would just paint the walls, run moulding and ceiling with lime wash with a colour in it, as the casein mix is not as moisture permeable.
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It's supposed to be windy and rainy and generally horrible tomorrow so I guess that will be the acid test for leaks...
I was thinking about using these claypaints which are good for lime http://earthbornpaints.co.uk/products/
I can see some laths near the floor here in the previously blocked off area (where the skirting used to be) but it all just looks like wood to me :-[. There are a few other areas of blown or cracked plaster for the team to deal with, as well as the bits they're going to hoover out any debris from so they can do all that before the lime skim.
Next question is going to be, can you lime plaster up to where the gypsum skin stops?
Plan for tomorrow is to take down the wooden frame, and chuck the dehumidifier in the loft for the day to dehydrate the mushrooms to deth :demon:
What I'm *really* dying to do is take the mantlepiece and surround off the wall so I can get an idea of how big (or not) the fireplace opening can be made for the stove. But Pingu will have kittens if I do that as well. Maybe in a couple of weeks....
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Send him out for a bike ride and say it just fell off by itself. O:-)
Lath.
Riven lath has been split along its length and is generally uneven and lumpy with longitudinal ridges from where the grain has been split apart.
Sawn lath has been through a power saw and is smooth and regular along its length in width and thickness.
Take a couple of close up photos of the stuff you have from the recess and another part of the house. It's easy to spot the difference once you look close enough. Or run your nail across the lath you'll feel the difference if you have both types.
Like so.....
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/Bugloss/IMG_1883_zpszmilfabi.jpg)
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/Bugloss/IMG_1882_zpsytyelnvc.jpg)
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Oh, I think it's all riven lath - it's certainly quite bendy looking, nothing straight here!
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If they're all the same type of lath, then the recess is more than likely original and if you measure the bead diameter on both recesses and they're the same, it'll give you an even better guess.
The other thing to look at is the nails on the beading. If they're the same then you could safely say that both recesses are of the same age and more than likely original to the house.
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Blimey!
That clay paint will break the bank @£45.00/5L
You can make your own with a 25 kg bucket of lime and 0.5 kg of colour (you won't need that much pigment anyway) for about £15.00 for 50 litres.
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4 :facepalm: hours later we got the rest of the frame down.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1487/25445976753_c436de5694_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ELzhn8)20160326_155404 (https://flic.kr/p/ELzhn8) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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Re the original question which was what to replace the plaster board with well surely a quick phone call to your surveyor? If he don't know then I doubt anyone does. or we could ask him for you on Monday next...LOL
PH
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I'm wondering if it's going to be easier/more economical to rip the lot down and replace it with woodwool board and then lime skim that.
I stripped of all the remaining wallpaper this morning, except for the bits that are holding up the plaster. That's pretty much all of the left hand reveal (the bit with the big hole bashed in it with the cable exiting), the holey area above the light fitting and several bits of the RH reveal.
That's not including all the bits on the chimney breast and round the fireplace opening.
Guess I'll see what the dude says on Weds....I'm finished for now, it's been a tiring weekend!
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Ask your builder, he's the one with the knowledge of old buildings. I wouldn't go on the advice of a building surveyor unless he's specialised in historic buildings, which most haven't.
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He is.
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Took a peep behind the mantelpiece. Thought "bodge job". Put the mantelpiece back again.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1545/25469137763_9267e6d510.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ENBZjT)IMG_3898 (https://flic.kr/p/ENBZjT) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Yup, all that hole was just hidden by the mantelpiece, no wonder it's draughty
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1617/25466946894_33193bc97b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ENqL4h)IMG_3899 (https://flic.kr/p/ENqL4h) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Great isn't it? Wonky bricks
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1636/25469093333_ac2dfc28a4.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ENBL7R)IMG_3900 (https://flic.kr/p/ENBL7R) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1719/25466881744_d82952f9de.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ENqqG1)IMG_3902 (https://flic.kr/p/ENqqG1) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Big piles of debris
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1461/25979096132_dacc3cceb3.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FzFEby)IMG_3903 (https://flic.kr/p/FzFEby) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
God knows where those cables are going
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1671/25468982753_ae2faf8e92.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ENBcfi)IMG_3905 (https://flic.kr/p/ENBcfi) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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That looks normal.
Sadly our whole house suffers from the same quality of workmanship.
It's looking better after 7 years of hard labour, so there's hope for you yet.
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/Bugloss/Adam-asferg-007_zpsnann0yee.jpg)
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/Bugloss/P1000129_zpsjepuv5by.jpg)
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Oh very, very nice.
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That's rather fancier than our humble 1 bed flat :)
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Thanks.
We managed to save it from the bulldozer, would you believe it was going to be pulled down......Philistines!
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A pretty house and karma points!
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Hell on a foundation more like.
I was looking at that woolly wood http://unger-diffutherm.de/en/udiproduktesystem/holzfaser-fuers-dach/udiflex/
I think this is what you mean and not the wool wood cement board abomination.
It looks quite interesting for insulation, but I can't imagine it would be very durable if it was in contact with a damp wall though. I'm assuming it's treated with boron or something to make it resist rot and I wonder what adhesive they use to make it stay together.
It looks good for loft insulation, but I think I would want to keep it as dry as possible.
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No, I think you might be right with the abomination https://www.lime.org.uk/products/boards-and-backgrounds/buildingwood-wool-board/celenit-buildingwood-wool-boards/
Why? Because it contains cement?
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I'm currently demolishing some of that at the moment. It's indestructible, but I don't like the cement and I don't like the texture of it. How it works with lime, I wouldn't like to guess.
My recommendation would be to always stick with lath and plaster. It's durable, repairable and has proved itself to be a reliable product over centuries when painted with lime paints. Finding a plasterer who doesn't make a song and dance about it, might be problematic though.
I'm a product of The Weald and Downland Museums' MSc program, so I'm a bit old fashioned and highly sceptical of "wonder" products when it comes to building.
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OK, why use lime plaster over clay then? Clay seems like it would be rather more user friendly.
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Finish I guess.
We have unburnt clay bricks inside and they are just lime washed, but it doesn't give a smooth finish and leaves a surface texture which dust hangs off.
Historically there's also probably an element of building material hierarchy involved, where a lime washed clay wall would have been regarded as lower quality than a plastered wall.
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Maybe I should have said lime plaster rather than clay plaster. Clay plastering looks like fun!
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I lived in an adobe house in Australia which had mud floors coated in bees wax. If you put a cup of tea on the floor and left it to get cold, a lump of mud came away with the cup when you picked it up. It made Avril go mad, as she was always repairing the floor.
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;D
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Traditional applied wall finishes in our region (The UK and Northern Europe) were lime wash or lime plaster over wattle/lath, wattle and daub (clay/cow turds/lime mix) or brick/unfired clay blocks and stone or timber panels.
Clay plaster technology looks like it's been imported from places like Sunny Southern Europe, Asia or Africa by the green building types. I think you'd struggle to find a historic building with an ancient and original trowel applied clay only plaster finish in the UK.
A lot of traditional building conservation or restoration involves research into and repair of the materials and finished that were used when the building was first constructed.
Except Oak framing, which for some reason has been singled out by the academics for extra special treatment, notably SPABs' insistence that if you're going to replace a bit of timber, it needs to be new and cut to the original size and not the weathered size, so that they can see the new from the old. Which makes it all end up looking like a horrid dogs dinner.
Ecological building and traditional building conservation are two different things, although they use some of the same materials a lot of the time.
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I've recently left my home of 8 years, which was a C14 cottage with much wattle & daub panel infills, and many which had been replaced by lath & plaster panels. I can confirm that L&P is easy to do, and can give a very good finish. W&D is great fun to do, but a smooth finish is almost impossible - and kind of misses the point! But for what I assume is a Victorian building, L&P is both appropriate and straightforward.
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You did it yourself? Lime seems like it would be a right PITA.
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It's one of the easiest and probably the most versatile building material I've ever used.
There's plenty of myth and loads of baloney written about lime and it's best to ignore most of it.
Follow a few very simple rules and your away.
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Haha, remember you're speaking to a complete DIY inept here. I'm good at demolishing stuff though :)
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You did it yourself? Lime seems like it would be a right PITA.
Yes, it's fairly easy. I got the materials via one of the suppliers affiliated to the Listed Building Owners club, which is a fabulous repository of knowledge and experience. They also provided information about the techniques I needed.
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Well the builder seemed to be surprised but pleased to see original wall behind the shitty alcove.
His chaps are coming back on Monday to start excavating.
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I'm going to have to ask........What's elebenty?
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I'm going to have to ask........What's elebenty?
What you get when you want to type "eleventy", and hit the wrong key.
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Lolcat speak
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I took my own advice and paid a visit to http://www.cornelissen.com for some Sienna pigment. If you're ever in town, it's worth a visit just to ogle the wonderful interior.
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No obvious damp bits here
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1661/25630657514_cda614a1f2.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/F3TPwb)20160404_171505 (https://flic.kr/p/F3TPwb) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Or here
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1711/26235411015_d2622a063f.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FYkkEF)20160404_171441 (https://flic.kr/p/FYkkEF) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
There was a lot of debris up here
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1442/26140885092_6ef07ea22d.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FPYSpo)IMG_6507_01 (https://flic.kr/p/FPYSpo) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
And finally some wet, rotten wood (which had been hiding behind some unexpected gypsum)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1524/26169145251_0c1d640446.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FStHav)20160404_171550 (https://flic.kr/p/FStHav) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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Good innit, cavity walling for damp that still works.
It's usual that such walls were vented at the top and bottom to help dry out the stone wall, so you could see if the wall is/was open at the top, in the loft, and have a look around the skirting to see if there were originally any vents built in.
The bead around the recess looks original too, "nice". It's going to look good when it's done.
His work's tidy too.
The lath looks like it's been split apart from wide sawn strips like a concertina <very interesting>. If you find an old lath nail that's in good condition, could you send a photo of it, and I'll send it over to a good friend, who's pretty much the world authority on rusty nails.
It's like time travel without leaving home.
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Accordion lath, that's what it's called.
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Do you mean a vent in the plaster or in the stone? Haven't seen anything in the plaster (and it was all plasterboard in the loft above)
The lath looks like it's been split apart from wide sawn strips like a concertina <very interesting>. If you find an old lath nail that's in good condition, could you send a photo of it, and I'll send it over to a good friend, who's pretty much the world authority on rusty nails.
It's like time travel without leaving home.
Yes, I was intrigued by the 'concertina' laths too. Though I notice that the lath on the RH cheek of the alcove is wider, more like 2-3 inch wide strips rather than proper thin lath.
It was only when I moved all the hi-fi equipment back into the other alcove last night that I noticed the plasterboard at the bottom there is all damp so they've to come back again and rip all that out. I guess when the stove has been fitted they will need to install some new lath round the fireplace opening as I don't think there's any there at the mo.
Will get the decent camera out and take photos of some nails when I've stopped being a cat bed :)
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Accordion lath, that's what it's called.
I was looking at - and enjoying - that lath work. It's very good - way better than mine! Some good stuff there.
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It's really nice to see lath like that, very tidy.
The internal stud and plaster wall was just left open at the top, where it meets the ceiling and a mesh put in the skirting so that air can circulate and vent the moist air into the loft /roof void.
Normally Victorian slated roofs had Sarking boards, which are Pine/Deal boards nailed to the rafters and running diagonally up the roof and covered the whole roof. These gave lateral stability to all the rafters, kept the dust and snow out and gave the slater something to nail the slates onto.
And to keep things dry, there would have been air flowing through the roof space, just like air bricks in the walls under a suspended timber floor at ground level, which help keep the damp away.
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Well having ripped the gypsum out of the gable end of the attic there's a bit more circulation than there was. Our roof is as you describe, except that plasterboard has been put over the underside of the rafters some of the way down. Behind the cupboards though it's all open so there's not full circulation but there is some, and probably enough judging by the breeze you can feel up there when it's windy.
There's no mesh in the skirting, but we're first floor so I don't know if there was anything downstairs.
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The nail pr0n is proving popular - Pingu only just added to Flickr and it's been favourited twice already!
There are a few photos, not sure if they are any good so if you click through to Flickr through this one you will be able to go back and forward through them and see for yourself.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1587/26165118132_77cd246659.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FS853q)IMG_3916 (https://flic.kr/p/FS853q) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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I've sent a linky to the experts, don't be shy about pulling a nice one out, thobut.
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Next question - what does one do with the wooden bead when decorating?
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Paint it.
You could use Farrow and Ball "Flat White" or lime wash with casein mixed in.
Plain lime wash won't stick to timber. It might look like it does when you first paint it on, but turn your back on it and it'll throw itself all over the floor.
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I believe I can't use lime wash to paint the whole room because 2 walls of it is still gypsum skimmed (I wasn't volunteering to scrape anymore off than I did because they're internal walls and it took long enough to get the stuff off that I did already) and I read that you can't lime wash gypsum, is that correct?
I didn't realise F&B Estate emulsion is as vapour permeable as the Earthborn Claypaint....strokes chin...
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65 quid for 5L, maybe not!
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You can lime wash new gypsum plaster if you mix casein in with the lime wash. I did that on the brick wall between a bedroom and bathroom.
You won't get lime wash to stick to emulsion though. But you can get a flat white emulsion from Travis Perkins or other regular builders merchants called Contractors Matt, which looks like lime wash and is as cheap as chips. It won't stick to lime plaster or lime wash and you really shouldn't be naughty and try that either, as you're now a fully paid up member of the crumbly building conservation club.
So you need to select your paint for the material you wish to cover.
By all means spend loads of money on paints with fancy names, if it floats your boat. I would rather spend it on gin though.
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And tonic.
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Well of course.
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So the builders have been back again and I'm surprised that the plasterboard wasn't wetter there.
I suspect that vent is not really meant to be used that way up. Any suggestions for a better solution that doesn't just let the rain right through to the inner wall appreciated:
Gratuitous cat shot
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1495/26305406225_6107cd9d2c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/G5w5ND)IMG_4026_01 (https://flic.kr/p/G5w5ND) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1644/25700523754_11d26d22b9.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Fa4Ujw)plaster_01 (https://flic.kr/p/Fa4Ujw) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1471/26279463376_8ce00298bf.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/G3e7U9)IMG_4023_01 (https://flic.kr/p/G3e7U9) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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You've got lovely lath Mrs. P.
Nice to see the vent, is it on the rainy side of the building ?
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Why thank you :smug:
It's on the rainy side of the building - this is the same wall we've just had pointed. There is another building a couple of feet across from this wall, but in this corner there will be not much protection afforded by that.
I know we don't want to block it up but is there anything we can do to stop the rain coming straight in and blowing on my lovely new plaster when it arrives? A few judiciously placed chunks of rock to make the path of the wind and rain a bit more twisty?
Having said that the lath looks ok round the hole.....
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Is the stone wall wet inside when it rains, because it might not be causing a problem ?
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I guess we will find that out next time it rains now we have a window to look through....
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Just got home to see it for myself. Cor! it's a bit draughty!
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There used to be shaped insulated internal sleeves available for standard air bricks (e.g. stadium) which allowed ventilation and the passage of moisture, a dew point to occur within the two halves of the shaped insulation which allowed any condensation to leave externally but which kept the drafts down internally. If I can find a link will post. The air brick would however be positioned on the other axis to that shown in the photo.
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You've got lovely lath Mrs. P.
Oi! Are you lookin' at my bird's lath? :demon:
:P
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Went into the wash house y'day and noted that some lath had appeared. Work starts again on Monday. Haven't quite known what to do with myself with nothing going on this week.
Tell you what, it's bloody draughty in here with this wind today!
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I bet it's cold. We're still on two wood burners, with one going constantly and CH twice a day.
There's hope though. The Rowan outside the window has extra large buds, so warm weather is on the way.
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Question - how long do I need to keep my cats away from the new plaster?
(The plasterer came and went while I was at work)
First coat is up, photos later perhaps.
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As long as they don't get any in their eyes or eat it, they should be ok with it as it is now.
Are they likely to want to rub up against it?
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Everything has to get sniffed so I imagine there's a fair chance of nose contact unless they find the smell offensive from afar.
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Should be ok, I can't imagine they would do more than sniff it.
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Next question while I try to establish comms with the plasterer - how long does it need to cure between coats?
Am wondering if I can move some stuff back to watch telly in the eve.... don't have a clue when he'll be back.
Also, what on earth is it with tradespeople and their inability to put carpet protection down? >:(
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It'll be ok to put stuff in front of it, as he's only done the scratch coat, which will dry pretty quickly with the wind.
As for the carpet, I don't know why people don't do that or clean up after themselves. It's one of life's great mysteries, but you should get him to do it next time he comes.
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(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1712/26483665156_b954f3ae6a.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GmgGYu)IMG_4065_01 (https://flic.kr/p/GmgGYu) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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Question - how long do I need to keep my cats away from the new plaster?
Depends how much you like pawprints, I suppose...
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That looks really nice now and you've managed to keep the run moulding around the ceiling in one piece.
What's the plan for the fireplace ?
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Question - how long do I need to keep my cats away from the new plaster?
Depends how much you like pawprints, I suppose...
:P I actually meant in terms of how long it would be caustic. Like my wit ;)
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That looks really nice now and you've managed to keep the run moulding around the ceiling in one piece.
What's the plan for the fireplace ?
That's all coming out. Black slate hearth going in. Plain skimmed front and an oak beam on the top.
Plasterer filled my Dyson tube with wet plaster. >:(
Had a flipping nightmare tonight trying to find the gas pipe before it goes into the fireplace, as the gas man is coming to cut it back on Thursday. Can't wait for it all to be over.
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Question - how long do I need to keep my cats away from the new plaster?
Depends how much you like pawprints, I suppose...
:P I actually meant in terms of how long it would be caustic. Like my wit ;)
It's caustic for ever, so watch your eyes and try not to flick it around too much.
That plasterer chappy sounds a right one.
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Yeah, they still didn't put anything down on the carpet despite being asked to. Have bought myself a roll of Roll & Stroll.
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Next stupid question...
At the sides of my current fireplace are some knackered gypsum and some sort of allegedly waterproof plaster. My stove installer did originally quote for plastering round the fireplace but that was before I decided to get the whole wall lime skimmed so my plan is instead to get the lime plasterers to put new lath beside the fireplace and then 3 coat lime plaster after the stove is in.
Before I go telling the stove installer I won't need him to plaster that bit can anyone see a flaw in my plan?
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Has the old "Bling" fire surround thing been removed yet ?
If so post a photo.
Are you planning on plastering the whole of the inside of the fireplace and what does it look like ?
Don't you just love a question being answered with two questions.
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No, the stove installer is going to do it on Friday (nothing being removed until the cats have been packed off to borstal for the day).
I can't remember if the inside is going to be all rendered or a brick back. I don't really have a strong preference either way TBH.
I don't know what it looks like as it hasn't been done yet? Unless I misunderstood your question....
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Well the reason I asked was that if there is the remnants of an old fireplace in there which has soot on it, the soot will bleed through any plaster that you put over it.
Even if the bricks are cleaned off, it's amazing how little soot it takes before it starts to show.
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Ah. I dare say the answer to that will turn out to be yes. I suppose I could just wait and see how big the opening ends up and measure the distance to combustibles...
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Ballsbumpoopiss. Looks like the Sqrl requires 600 mm clearance to combustibles. That's almost half the entire width of the chimney breast, so that's not likely. Guess I will be having some evil modern fireproof board at the sides of the opening :(
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You could always have just bricks on the inside and plaster the front around the opening.
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Plaster directly onto the stone?
I'm thinking that plaster onto the hard allows the passage of salts, but read that metal lath is a bit crap to plaster onto...
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Yep, you can plaster straight onto stone or brick.
It needs to be clean though and you need a fatty lime, so it sticks.
The thing with building, and I fall into the trap all the time, is it's easy to read too much about it and overthink it. I've found it's best to be pragmatic and just do it and see if it works.
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Yes, easy to do if you're doing it yourself, not the same when you're paying to get a man in.... Oh well I'll see what happens on Friday I spose
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Yeah, sorry it's easy for me to say.</doh!>
Your man should be able to recommend the ideal and historically correct solution.
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I should just like to say that when the work is done and this thread withers that I shall miss it. I've been enjoying it.
And now back to your previously scheduled plastering program
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*Injects more life*
Ah but our stove was safely delivered to the installer yesterday, and so the cunning plan begins....
Met with the builder on Saturday and he knows what he has to do to make the cottage water tight from above. I am to dig and install the French drain around the building, and between stopping the ingress from above and stopping it from getting to the walls below, plus the stove we are very much looking forward to a very cosy dry winter.
Your help Mrs P in pointing us towards the surveyor has been invaluable. The difference between his report and the so called damp professionals was and is chalk and cheese so dear reader if you are tempted to take one of the national companies advice re damp in an old building then do please think again. We are saving thousands.
PH
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I should just like to say that when the work is done and this thread withers that I shall miss it. I've been enjoying it.
And now back to your previously scheduled plastering program
That's nice to know, I was thinking the other night that people might be thinking, get a room..... :D
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*Injects more life*
Ah but our stove was safely delivered to the installer yesterday, and so the cunning plan begins....
Met with the builder on Saturday and he knows what he has to do to make the cottage water tight from above. I am to dig and install the French drain around the building, and between stopping the ingress from above and stopping it from getting to the walls below, plus the stove we are very much looking forward to a very cosy dry winter.
Your help Mrs P in pointing us towards the surveyor has been invaluable. The difference between his report and the so called damp professionals was and is chalk and cheese so dear reader if you are tempted to take one of the national companies advice re damp in an old building then do please think again. We are saving thousands.
PH
How are things on the paint removal front?
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At the moment in limbo.
Had a poke and another poke at it over the weekend and it seems quite brittle so I am hoping that one of these will work....
Mechanical agitation. Power washing. Power wire brushing.
Time will tell on this one as the more important issues are to water proof the cottage from above and get the drain in to keep it dry from the bottom, then the coating can be tackled. The upper issues are in hand with the builder so by the time the stove goes in (late June) the ingress from above will be stopped permanently. On moving in (August hopefully) then I will start the drain.
PH
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(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1676/26697880215_2cc287436f.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GFcBDz)Ready for tomorrow (https://flic.kr/p/GFcBDz) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Shifted the mantlepiece, but not picking that lot up, it looks flipping heavy!
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That's a job for a hammer.
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I'm quite excited about the demolition, slightly sad I'm not getting to destroy any of it myself
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Ballsbumpoopiss. Looks like the Sqrl requires 600 mm clearance to combustibles. That's almost half the entire width of the chimney breast, so that's not likely. Guess I will be having some evil modern fireproof board at the sides of the opening :(
Can you use the rear flue and have the stove stand out from the fireplace? That might heat the room more effectively too.
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Not to have it 600mm in front of combustibles.
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Brick it up and plaster it ?
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At the moment bricking the whole wall up and plastering it is looking like an option - it's not gone to plan at all :'(
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Oh dear.
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Have you checked the stove info on the green forum Mrs P?
PH
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There are inset stove/fireplaces. they are stoves meant to be stuck in fireplaces, with minimal intrusion into the room.
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Right then, I was rather doom & gloom earlier because the stove man was very doom & gloom, but we talked it over (I made some suggestions he hadn't even considered, including an inset stove!) and he was a bit more upbeat when he left.
He's going to get in touch with his stonemason and see about getting the extra bit at the top of the LHS cut so that it goes straight back rather than at an angle. The RHS also needs cutting a bit because it doesn't go up straight, which will be fun as it's granite. And then the plan would be to have the Squirrel half out of the opening.
If all else fails I will have an inset stove, although that is the last chance saloon as I don't really want one of those.
You can see his measuring and scribblings on the wood in the photo.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1658/26684698606_973a074bb7.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GE34ds)The hole isn't big enough (https://flic.kr/p/GE34ds) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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Couple more photos, might be a bit clearer...
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1468/26714330245_a215270bb4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GGDVEM)2016-04-29_05-52-37 (https://flic.kr/p/GGDVEM) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1463/26714047545_38238956fc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GGCtCD)IMG_4105_01 (https://flic.kr/p/GGCtCD) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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Looks OK to me, but if it was mine I'd wall it up, lime render the stone wall and stick the burner in the room with a pipe out the back into the flue. Just like PO said.
YMMV, however.
Edit. You really want that neighbours flue encased properly, as ceramic liners can burst.
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That would be fine in a big place, the thing is that this is a shallow room. I can't have the stove right out of the opening as it would be almost in the middle of the room!
Well, the stove wouldn't be, but the hearth definitely would.
So it's either half in/half out, or an inset (suboptimal)
And the clearance to the stove sides is 9cm which is why all the gnashing of teeth.
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That's a tight hole! It's a shame there isn't a little more room, but I'd have thought a semi-recessed stove might be the best compromise. I can see that a free-standing one out in the room would be a pain, but a free-standing stove that fits in that fireplace would be tiny.
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Hmm... I've been thinking today.
I can't decide whether to go for the compromise of the Sqrl half out of the opening, or just suck it up and get an inset stove.
I suspect that an inset would mean an awful lot less mess (no need to get that granite cut with all the dust that will generate).
Someone else has suggested an inset living flame gas fire :sick:
My heart wants the Squirrel but my head seems a bit more pragmatic.
What does the panel think? I think I already know but maybe you'll surprise me ;)
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Gas Central Heating. :thumbsup:
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Gas Central Heating. :thumbsup:
You're not helping :P.
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Knowing Aberdeen flats as I do I wonder at the practicalities of having a wood burner in an upper flat. Ashes out and wood up and where to store it? My installer warned us we need to think of how to store 6 to 8 tons of the stuff whilst it dries out and to that effect my main mission next weekend is going up to the cottage to do some serious measuring and contemplating that little matter.
PH
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<bashes head off wall> You lot! :facepalm:
Not going to be using wood, as you say we have nowhere to store / dry it. That's what briquettes are for. :thumbsup:
Ashes have to go outside no matter the property, it's only 1 flight of steps and they are outside.
I've spent the afternoon eyeing up these http://www.contura.eu/English/Stoves/Inserts/Insert-Contura-i4-Modern-Four/
And all this is making my brain hurt - pass the gin!
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Hmm... I've been thinking today.
Someone else has suggested an inset living flame gas fire :sick:
A reclaimed Victorian/Edwardian cast iron fireplace with a decent made-to-measure gas coal-effect fire would look great, but it wouldn't do much to heat the room up. Given the size of the opening, that was probably what was in there originally.
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Knowing Aberdeen flats as I do I wonder at the practicalities of having a wood burner in an upper flat. Ashes out and wood up and where to store it? My installer warned us we need to think of how to store 6 to 8 tons of the stuff whilst it dries out and to that effect my main mission next weekend is going up to the cottage to do some serious measuring and contemplating that little matter.
PH
The ash volume from a woodburner is surprisingly small.
An whole winter evening here produces only a small tray full of ash.
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I look forward to checking that statement myself this Autumn s we are installing a Charnwood C6. http://www.woodburnerwarehouse.co.uk/charnwood-c-six.html
Is 5kw not a bit powerful for the flat MrsP?
PH
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Probably would be if it was insulated and didn't have dormers and all those other lovely heat drains....
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We have 2 SQRLs in the cottage we borrow. One has a back boiler and warms the room. The other is a normal one and when burning well is too hot. 13ft square rooms, uninsulated stone cottage.
The problem is, as I understand it, that less than 5kw is hard to keep going?
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I often get asked to install large ( 7kw plus ) multi fuel stoves in small sitting / front room so the occupier , can heat all of the ressidence . The problems are you end up melting on the sofa or have to move the sofa against the back wall or leave the stove on tick over so you might as well buy a smaller stove . IMHO A small stove running well has less flue problems .
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So we've found a use for the copper pipe - a handy conduit for threading Cat5 cable down from the loft :thumbsup:
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Don't put it in concrete though, it might develop a leak and lose some networktrons all over the place.
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So the stonemason is coming on Friday. He will build up the bit on the LHS that is missing, and if we decide to go for the Sqrl he will cut the bits that need trimming to make the opening plumb and box shaped.
We have until Thursday to decide to keep the Sqrl or change it and go for an inset - I think it will be down to whether Pingu thinks his legs will melt with the Sqrl.... ;)
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Well the decision has been made, an insert stove. So defo no lath near that. Only thing I'm not sure about is whether you can have a beam for a mantlepiece, but being as most photos have them with slips and a surround presumably it's ok if it's not too close.
Moar photies tomorrow, prolly.
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The mason has arrived with his BFO saw. It's quite loud. Have retreated to the garden.
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He's just come out and exclaimed how hard it is! Obviously used to cutting soft southern stone....
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(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7417/26783211301_1029d862a5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GNJXBc)2016-05-06_02-35-05 (https://flic.kr/p/GNJXBc) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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Lime mortar?
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No idea.
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Big brother came and declared all the cables dead. I've just hoicked them all up into the loft and disposed of the remains.
Pingu and I have spent the last couple of nights having type 2 fun wiring Cat5e plugs. (I love the way the wires do the doseydo on their way in the plug and therefore end up in the wrong order).
The new stove is supposed to be here in a couple of weeks.
I've been feeding my neighbours cat and took the opportunity to have a nosey at one of her fireplaces. Truly I am a sad git.
Twiddles thumbs ::-)
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Here's a picture of my latest wood stack and soon to be wood shed to keep you entertained.
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/Bugloss/IMG_1837%201_zpstiqptyda.jpg)
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/Bugloss/IMG_1758_zpsmgi1w8m9.jpg)
I've been cutting the turf for the grass roof for the woodshed today, as Big Traktor Ole is going to plough the meadow on Saturday >:( 'Tis the most beautiful thing to behold. I'll try and get some photos tomorrow.
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I managed to save 40 square meters of it before its demise.
I can feel an epic build coming on as it may end up being a bit heavy. Pitched or flat needs to be answered.
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/Bugloss/turf%20IMG_1911_zpsrj3luy4r.jpg)
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Nice pic :) Shame all those wild flowers are going.
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Yesterday we trunked up all the Cat5e cable in the loft and Pingu screwed the socket onto the wall in the lounge. Good job we did that, as unexpectedly the joiner came today (requiring me to have a 2.5hr tea break from work ::-) ) and stuff happened:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7320/26986360841_5b444f2dd7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/H7G9Tt)IMG_6588_01 (https://flic.kr/p/H7G9Tt) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Pingu says the bottom box is going to be a cat warming nook ;D
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Gratuitous cat in fireplace shot
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7595/26529830104_652170ac36_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GqmjcS)IMG_6591_01 (https://flic.kr/p/GqmjcS) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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Almost looks like an oil painting.
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Apparently the new stove has arrived in Dundee.
The slow progress is doing my head in...... :-\
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Ok I will bite.. why Dundee when you are in Aberdeen?
We sent ours direct to the installer. :)
PH
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Because the installer ordered it.
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Fair enough mine is with our installer where ever he is. Install works start on June 25th.
PH
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Ninkasi wonders when the kitteh warming area will be commissioned.
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/8/7191/26688266503_ffef9c55cd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GEmkPV)IMG_4229_01 (https://flic.kr/p/GEmkPV) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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Are they still smelting the ore for the thing, or is it on a ship in the South China sea?
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We're off for a spot of beers and bikes in Belgium for the week. Installer is supposed to be coming on.the 16th.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/61480276@N04/27427745081/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/61480276@N04/27222625270/in/dateposted-public/
The blasters did some test patches yesterday to get an idea of the time it is going to take and the answer is pretty eyewatering but it has to be done.
PH
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How long did it take them to do that bit?
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They didn't tell me, and I forgot to ask as I was down here when they did it yesterday. Using powdered glass apparently and it is going to cost more to do due to the thickness of the render. But we are really getting two jobs down for the one price which is removing the paint and also the render. They think 12 working days for the whole building.
PH
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I'm guessing you've to get the pointing re-done after all that too?
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It'll look pretty wild when its done. Are you going to try and match the grey colour of the original mortar or is that s&c too ?
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The full scale work started today and we are going up to see the end result on the 24th. We will then be able to start pondering on what to do at that point.
PH
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Two days of almost continual rain and there is now water running down the wall in the loft at the back of the house. WTF?
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
:'(
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Blocked down pipe possibly? We are on day 6 here of continuous rain including the heaviest thunder plumps I have ever seen. Bloody rain drops the size of golf balls.
PH
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No guttering, this is the same gable wall we just had repointed and the skew fillets redone, and the chimney flaunching replaced.
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That's not good.
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No it blinking isn't. The boss man is coming round for a look tomorrow. Now that the deluge has stopped I've popped my head out of the window in the roof and peered at that area with binoculars but could see naff all of note.
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2 of them came round today and seemed utterly perplexed. At least it was still raining and they could see the rain running down the stone for themselves. They looked at the cement fillet from my loft window and said it all looked good (I couldn't see any issues when I did the same the other day but then I am not an expert).
They then had a feel around inside and decided the rafters were wet, which apparently they shouldn't be if it's just running down the wall as they don't touch (?).
So then they theorised that rain was blowing under the slates and running along the roof to the wall (how that fits in with the gap between the rafter and the wall beats me) but after I showed them the inspection hatch they were able to see a patch of wet rafter with sarking boards lying adjacent to it which are dry, which blew that out of the water.
They seemed genuinely stumped. They're going to return on Monday with a roof ladder but I don't hold out much hope form them finding anything.
I'm getting towards the end of my tether with this. I could just cry, really.
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That sucks, really, but don't get despondent as shit happens in building......We're looking at a £45,000 re-roof as the thatcher f--k-- up and is denying all responsibility. >:(
Is there lead flashing to the chimney and gable or just lime fillet ?
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Give John a phone Mrs P. He is the expert after all.
Got pics today of the cottage which I will try and get up.
PH
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I know there is lead to parts of the chimney but I suspect not to most of the length of the gable. I will ask though.
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The chimney should be flashed all round with lead where it meets the roof and there should be lead soakers under the ridge and every slate that abuts the chimney.
You should really have lead soakers on the slates that abut the gable end of the house too, but you may have a tradition of not installing them in your area. It's really a roofing job, but why you suddenly have water coming down the inside of the gable should be an easy question to answer for your builder and if it wasn't doing it before they started work, then they must have left something off.
Your surveyor would need to get on the ladder and have a good look, but I'd be inclined to let the builder try and sort it out first as he's been up close and personal with the chimney.
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I feel like I should just open up the contents of my bank accounts to anyone that fancies a dip...
Anyway, also on Friday the stove installer was back. Still not finished yet though. (He reckoned he'd have it all done in a day, I told my friend I'd eat my hat if that were the case. I didn't have to fashion myself a hat out of chocolate).
Maybe this week....
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:facepalm:
It sounds like you have a right bunch up your way.
If your builder really cares about his reputation, he should get it sorted with no fuss whatsoever.
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Absolutely and our stove man said five working days.
PH
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It will probably be getting on for 5 days if you add up the day they took the old fire out, the day the stonemason came, the morning the joiner was here, the day they spent on Friday and however long it takes them to finish - though they now only have to put the stove in the hole, connect the liner and then plaster. My stove man is based about an hours drive (not rush hour either) and he seems to leave home at starting time, rather than being on site at starting time....
Anyhow. Will see if the trad building people contact me tomorrow.
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I'm watching this thread with trepidation and my fingers crossed. I really hope it gets fully sorted soon, Mrs P!
Thinking back to when we had our stove fitted I recall it took two workmen about 5 days full-time (7am - 5pm). Plus a morning's work from Big Boss to reconstruct the fireplace with a concrete lintel when they discovered the wall was held up by dust and good luck alone. :o
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The stove will work out fine I'm sure. I could probably do what's left to do myself now ;) bar the lack of a register plate.
The water running down the wall though it another matter.
Today I received the 3 tester pots of claypaint I ordered before I found the water. Won't be needing them any time soon >:(
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I agree with Aunt M that the Chimney is a likely source, particularly at the back if the roof line/pitch meets it there. The haunching/copings should be throwing the weather off the face of the chimney masonry and project beyond the facework via a tile crease or other means. I would not simply rely on sand and cement fillets and your roofer should be advising you, not the other way around. Whatever you do, do not get talked into applying a silicone 'waterproofing' treatment to the masonry facework.
At the end of the day there will be a simple explanation as to what is going on, the devil is in finding just what that is.
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Just to clarify, the people who did the work are not roofers per se but traditional building specialists so nasty coatings will be the last thing they will suggest.
When I walked home from the gym I had a good nose at all the chimneys I walked past. For all the mass masonry chimneys they all looked pretty similar to mine, in that there is often a small bit of lead visible on the bottom most chimney/slope interface, but nothing visible up the long face of the stack. In fact many appeared to look like mine used to do, with more and more piles of cement (or whatever) apparently piled on top to stop leaks. So it would appear that they have just done what is traditional round here.
I think the chimney itself is probably good, as that was all rehaunched and there's no water pishing down the flue like there used to be. It's the junction of the roof with the chimney and or gable.
And I'm thinking that if the junction with the chimney is pants it's unlikely to be much better at the gable.
Anyway, when Pingu's finished uploading the photies....
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Good to hear.
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The copes before the new skew was put on.
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/8/7335/27189727983_ff8b2e0307.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HqEsRv)IMG_3707 (https://flic.kr/p/HqEsRv) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
The chimney this evening
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7377/27189387184_ed8f7fab0a.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HqCHxE)2016-06-20_09-10-17 (https://flic.kr/p/HqCHxE) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
I think you can just see lead here
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/8/7336/27522975940_29acbdd182.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HW7rRW)2016-06-20_09-13-47 (https://flic.kr/p/HW7rRW) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Don't tell me, this pot hanging cowl is supposed to have a band hanging on to all those strips of metal.... ???
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7283/27726018661_6ff18acc27.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Jf46ov)2016-06-20_09-16-15 (https://flic.kr/p/Jf46ov) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
The whole saga is available here, for those who suffer insomnia https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/albums/72157659096775250
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I hope you're sitting comfortably with a strong drink........... then I'll begin.
Whoever slated that roof needs to go back to slating school, year one and start again. There shouldn't be a mixture of thick and thin slates on the body of the roof, as the slates should be graded before the job starts into thick, medium and thin. Slating isn't just about banging slates on a roof, it's a trade that should be learnt through an apprenticeship as it used to be. Get it wrong and you're up the swanney.
Thick are coursed along the eaves at the bottom of the roof , medium in the middle and thin at the ridge. If you mix them up you end up with gaps at the bottom of the slates, like in your picture "The copes before the new skew was put on."
If your builder was worth his salt, he should have picked up on that and mentioned it to you. Generally customers don't like that, as they think the builder is looking for work, so it's a tricky one.
LEAD
Yes, I can just see lead........on your neighbours roofs.
If that's a lime fillet with no lead it won't last very long, coz the frost will kill it in short time, unless it's NHL5 (I bet it's not).....sorry. I can't see any lead soakers on your roof at the coping, but then they "might" be covered with the lime.
You need a lead flashing and soakers on that chimney if you want it to be weather proof, as you're 3 floors up and in Scotland, otherwise its a bodge. And seeings I've got C&G in leadwork, I'll stick to that.
And that pot hat thing needs an anchor, like you said.
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Sorry, I've been a bit brutal in my previous post, but I've had enough of crappy roofers and you need to know what's up, so you can argue the toss.
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Sigh.
Do you wanna job as a project manager?
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Thanks for the offer, but my current client won't let me leave site and seeings she feeds me , although I do the cooking, and gives me a squeeze now and then I think it's a good job to be on.
Where do you see the water coming in exactly and when it did come in, was it both windy and raining or just that heavy, straight down, downpour stuff ?
Generally it doesn't travel that far sideways or up ways on a roof, as the little gullies between the slates help it keep a straight run down, unless your roof looks like The Atlantic on a blowy day. But yours does look pretty flat across it, until you get to about 500mm from the gable wall.
If you don't have felt, and I can't remember if you do, the water will fall onto the sarking boards and drip straight through the gaps. If the water is only running down the gable wall and nowhere else it's likely a chimney/coping issue like what Canardly said.
But if you didn't pay for any lead soakers or other flashing in your itemised invoice, you don't have any.
The original builder of the house would have saved a packet by not installing lead on all the roofs he built. If a builder wants to make a saving without the client finding out then the roof is where to do it, even though it's the most important part of the house as weather proofing goes.
I'm just wondering if the hat thing on the chimney has been left loose for the fire installers to fix for some reason.
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On closer inspection of the photo from the Velux..........
The telly cable shouldn't go through the ridge of roof where it does, but should lay a bit on the roof then go upwards under the flashing or a slate so it doesn't give water something to flow along.
There's something at the bottom of the stack which might be some lead or be an odd slate to cover the gap between the slates in the course below, but I can't be sure what it is really.
And if the lead on the ridge just buts against the stack without being flashed properly, that's a weak point too. And that corner is west facing by the looks of it, so its getting driving rain and a lot of weather. It needs a proper roofer to do it as it should be done, otherwise you'll be fixing it forever because the lime fillet will crack up. That's what it does and it shouldn't be used alone to weatherproof a roof or chimney at the junction between slates and masonry.
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Stove man (returning tomorrow for more fitting) said they weren't finished cutting the liner. Well, whatever, as long as it gets done.
So, I've been out and up with a proper camera and got interesting results....
The telly cable doesn't go through the ridge, it just sits on top and then drapes down the front. It doesn't enter the building through the roof at all.
The area I can *see* water coming in pretty well matches up with the stack from the ridge and left to where it ends. That's not to say that there's not more water coming in downhill of the stack, but that's all I can see in the loft. When the builders were here they felt a wet bit on the rafter of the other face of the roof but it wasn't visibly running down the wall there.
It wasn't particularly windy when the rain was coming in. It was probably coming in that general direction but not at a severe angle.
The bit at the bottom of the stack does look like lead, took a better photo.
Anyway... I've found something! You might not be very excited and it's probably not IT but it's something.....
Photos to follow when Pingu's stuck them on Flickr.... can you bear the suspense?
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Right, have a good zoom into this one, bottom of skew, near the ridge.
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7290/27228241174_2ee0e6b3ed.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Hu4Ru3)IMG_4387 (https://flic.kr/p/Hu4Ru3) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Guessing this is lead
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/8/7276/27228303263_ffb5f5afa3.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Hu5aWx)IMG_4378 (https://flic.kr/p/Hu5aWx) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
There are more, in the same album.
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I guess this.....
https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/27188455384/in/photostream/
Is just below this....
https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/27189727983/in/photostream/
There should have been soakers under the slates at the parapet (the little wall that sticks up with the coping on top), especially where the slates have been cut badly. Lead soakers lay under each slate and cover the gap between the half slates on the course below or above, they are dressed up the parapet and stop just below the coping, which should form an overhang so the water drips off and onto the slate and soaker.
There should also be soakers running up the side of the stack as well. To make a drip, a stainless steel form is used which is fastened over the top edge of the soakers and filled with a fillet of lime (NHL5) or S&C. This avoids having to chase into the stonework and insert a flashing, but isn't as durable.
I'm not sure how to get the images to show, but I'm sure you'll see them. Generally the Victorian roofs that I have worked on have all been done well with the correct leadwork. When a house is re-roofed the lead might have been removed by the new roofer for <cough!> economic or financial reasons. </cough!>
If you just put a fillet of lime along a roof it leaves a small gap at the end of every slate, this will give water somewhere to get in, especially west facing and high up.......You do have wind and rain combo from the west where you are, don't you? The lime will also crack when it dries out, because it doesn't do expansion and contraction very well. Your builder might say that it is self healing due to the free lime available in the mortar, but that only applies to the small joints in brickwork, not a fillet on a roof.
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I guess this.....
https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/27188455384/in/photostream/
Is just below this....
https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/27189727983/in/photostream/
No. The leak is just below this
https://flic.kr/p/HqCHxE
I can't see what's below the copes in your second link because that's where it disappears into the kitchen wall.
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I've had a look here and the other pages on the website:
http://leadsheet.co.uk/step-and-cover-flashings-and-secret-gutters
are you thinking individual soakers, step, secret gutter...?
I've emailed the builder with the picture of the crack and said I want to try something different, lets see what they say.
Also, we get wind and rain from every direction! Nothing is safe when it's blowing a right hoolie.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/27766381646/in/photostream/
My comment about lead soakers applies here too, there's nothing stoping the rain from entering the joint at the edge of the slates and parapet wall. Plus, that's really just half a flashing and should look like this, but with the fillet former or chased in like I said before......
(http://www.calderlead.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/calder_construction2.jpg)
http://www.calderlead.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Calder-Guide-to-Good-Leadwork.pdf
See page 15, lead soakers. A secret gutter would be too complicated to fit and keep clean of debris.
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Got home from work yesterday and the living room was boiling and there were glowing embers in the fire.
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Got home from work yesterday and the living room was boiling and there were glowing embers in the fire.
Summer in Aberdeen, what's not to like! :thumbsup:
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Seems we now have an inglenook some one metre across and 1.1 high. Can't wait to see it.
PH
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Edited to replace photo
Not very pretty ATM but hopefully once the plasterer has been...
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/8/7342/28073980756_57608b119e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JLNuoY)IMG_4461 (https://flic.kr/p/JLNuoY) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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Your comment of "not very pretty ATM" was quite amusing as currently it does actually look a bit like an ATM ;D
Hopefully it'll soon look like it belongs there.
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Haha yes. One day, there'll be a picture of it lit, and all plastered and painted and a strategically posed cat belly and it will warm the cockles of your heart.
But not yet. Don't expect to see my plasterer much before the end of the month....
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Is that a beslippered left foot reflected in the door glass?
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<looks, zooms>
No, it's my elbow. Underneath that is my butt :)
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It looks like a building site, when's it finished ?
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Plasterer not free until the week of the 18th at which point he has a job to do in Portsoy and will probably swap between here & there.
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Also waiting for some people to come see me about lead.
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<looks, zooms>
No, it's my elbow. Underneath that is my butt :)
Ah yes. I see now.
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Also waiting for some people to come see me about lead.
I have some lead. It is marvellous stuff. I've got about 150kg, some new, but mostly fractured and scabby. ;D
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Rang up the decorating shop about paint today.
Earthborn want £83 for 2.5L of their eggshell. I nearly fell off my seat!
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Casein + lime + water + pigment = it makes sense.
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Not for woodwork it doesn't ;)
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Then there's always Dulux.
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Also waiting for some people to come see me about lead.
Well the chap has been, will see how horrific the quote is soon...
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I've got a small roll of Code 4 lead, if that might help...
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Some pics of the new stove and inglenook. Plus the very clever tea towel my sister gave us. :)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/61480276@N04/?
PH
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Some pics of the new stove and inglenook. Plus the very clever tea towel my sister gave us. :)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/61480276@N04/?
PH
Very nice. Also, is that an inch of cement render being measured there? Your house is starting to look brill!
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Yes some places it is an inch thick.
Teh local historian thinks our house is a bit older than we thought. We were told 1750 odd but he says the type of mortar being revealed says 1650 odd. She is a lovely house and the garden is amazing as it was planted up by very keen gardners so whilst the range of plants is pretty much what you would expect, they are special examples of the say lupin. Very lovely to see, and the birds... dear me. We put some feed out to see what might happen and there were at times 5 or even once 7 working the oats.
PH
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Your house will be heaving a sigh of relief at being able to breathe again!
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Oh yes she is loving it and she is so proud of her water tightness and her stove. She is feeling POSH! Ye ken.....lol
PH
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Lovely stuff.
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Lovely house and garden, really lovely.
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Many thanks. We have been very fortunate in that the people who owned it for some 60 years were keen gardeners so the herbaceous border has a lovely selection of plants and they seem to be just a bit special as in unusual varieties. Lucky us and we are considering it a duty to maintain it as best we can. Most of the effort has gone into the lawn from which I have removed 42 barrow loads of moss so far. No doubt more to come but it feels a lot firmer than it did. We need to seriously trim the hedges as they have taken off a bit ad are blocking a lot of late afternoon/evening light from the veg garden. I will apologise to the sparrows who live in there before I take action but it has to be brought down a good four feet and trimmed back on each side. Late autumn for that.
BTW we have discovered rolled oats, as in horse feed with some sunflower oil mixed in is VERY much appreciated by the birds.
PH
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Finally the plastering is finished
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8675/28692426141_1a709d51da_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/KHsbEr)IMG_4574 (https://flic.kr/p/KHsbEr) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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Also waiting for some people to come see me about lead.
Well the chap has been, will see how horrific the quote is soon...
Or not >:(
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More progress up north. We are rather pleased.
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8705/28153329133_3ab51156c0_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JTPaUr)Render Removal After Gable (https://flic.kr/p/JTPaUr) by Shenachieagain (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61480276@N04/), on Flickr
PH
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Any news Mrs P. We have been up at the cottage for two weeks and woo the stove puts out some heat. Also found another log supplier at 2/3ds the price of the guy we have used so far. £80 + VAT rather than £120.
PH
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I'd be interested to see how much and what it is you get for £80.00
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One tonne of hardwood logs cut to suit and as far as I know dry from an estate locally. Not put a meter on it but been shown the wood and very nice too. Mainly beech. :)
PH
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That sounds like a very good price for dry Beech, it makes excellent firewood.
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Indeed yes. :)!!
PH
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It's a bargain, when you consider that I'm paying £25.00 per cubic meter (which isn't a tonne when green) for standing beech and I've got to fell it, chop it up, split it, transport it, stack it and dry it.
Phew!!
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Well I though our wood was quite pricey - £95 including VAT for around 1m3, nicely seasoned, but it would appear not - and that's in Bucks. Again, mostly Beech - as one would expect from adjacent to the Chilterns. It does get tipped in the road and I have to use the wheelie bin to move it round the back to stack (neighbours drive, then gateway then passage too narrow for barrow) but hey, I can always use the exercise.
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News.....well, the fireproof plaster is all dry now. It may just be me but the area in the alcove where the worst of the damp patches were still seems to be slightly damp.... but I'm hoping that when I get the roof fixed (yet again) that it will go away.
On the roof front. The first bloke I had round who was recommended by the first contractors had a good chat but never gave me a quote and stopped answering calls. :facepalm: So I asked the 1st contractors to quote even though they said it would be more expensive due to travelling costs. So they quoted me £5190 inc VAT, but their quote was very sparse and basically just regurgitated back what I'd said with no detail so I wasn't exactly that keen given their previous performance.
I then found another trad buildings contractor who mention lead roofing on their website so they came and had a good chat and their quote (which doesn't mention VAT at all so I'm assuming it's not included) comes out at £5740. but is much more detailed and gives me a couple of options.
Finally found a 3rd lot of lead roofers from south of Dundee who are a bit crap at communication - they came and looked at the roof but they didn't confirm they were coming so I wasn't there, therefore they quoted for something else entirely. I've spoken to them today and hopefully they will send out another quote. But unless it's a huge amount less than the last one I'm a bit put off by the communiation issues.....
The saga continues.
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Dont it just lass. Poor you it seems to be never ending.
We are now a the mercy of Scottish Power who today told me that the earliest appointment to install an isolater unit between my power and their supply is October 27th. I had hoped for a lot earlier to co-ordinate another delivery with them but no way is that now possible so it will be two round trips of 680 miles each to sort it out. Also it sets back the decorating and and and..... grrrrr
PH
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Is that £5000 for the lead flashing to the chimney and soakers on both sides of the roof to one parapet wall, or something else entirely ?
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Is that £5000 for the lead flashing to the chimney and soakers on both sides of the roof to one parapet wall, or something else entirely ?
Yes, lead to chimney and copes, front & back of the gable end.
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There seem to be a lot of non VAT registered builder types around atm. Could be that your quote does not attract VAT. (Turnover circa £83k to qualify mmmm).
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I'm sure they're bigger than that, not a very small outfit. They probably do it to look cheaper....
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It probably isn't worth the argument1, but I'm almost certain that any supplier quoting prices to a consumer is obliged to do so including VAT. The fact that certain business sectors habitually don't do so is neither here nor there.
1: That said, almost twelve hundred quid can buy you a lot of argument2 down this neck of the woods
2: Not necessarily with roofers though
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Well if it does turn out to include VAT I shall be happy as it will be cheaper, but I'm not holding my breath in order to not be disappointed :)
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The argument bit comes when they present an invoice for £5740+20%, and you pay them £5740.
There isn't any teeny-tiny print on the back of the quote stationery, saying all quotes are subject to their standard Ts&Cs is there? Because when you've found the Ts&Cs (behind the leopard or wherever), they probably do say quotes are ex VAT. I'd still view that as misleading though, if there's no mention of VAT on the face of the quote.
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Are they quoting for a scaffolding or do they plan to do it off a ladder.
Plus will they be taking off the slates which abut the parapet wall and replacing them with new ones ?
If they say they will just slide the soakers up under the existing slates, you'd best walk away, as they need to be nailed onto the same batten as the slate they sit under and have a lap equal to the lap on the slates, otherwise they'll leak.
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jasabine - the quote is not for £5740. That's the figure I got after adding 20%. There's no mention of VAT anywhere on the quote, but it was emailed so can't see the back of the stationery :).
Aunt Maud - this particular quote (the detailed one) states that slates will be stripped back and re laid on completion and allows for 30% slate wastage. It's using a scaffold tower rather than a full wall of scaffolding. They separated the quote into 2 parts, to just do the bit adjacent to the chimney or then to do the whole lot.
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Saga update:
The above quote did not include VAT.
I got a new quote from the poor communicators:
Remove existing skews from both sides of gable, install code 3 lead soakers under each course of slates from gutter to ridge. New skews to be formed once lead & slates in situ.
£1560 + VAT.
No mention of putting anything up the length of the chimney, cutting a 'raggle' in it and putting lead up there :facepalm:
Think I should just admit defeat and go with the expensive but comprehensive one? (FTR they specified code 6 lead).
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I am watching the men on the roof of the flats across the street. Last month they replaced all the cement to the skews on their gable end. This weekend they had all the pointing out of the chimney stack and now they've replaced the the haunching (or some of it) round the chimney cans. I reckon they've got the same issues I have. Wonder if that'll work for them.
Never mind the fact I can see loads of loose slates, I'm surprised that roof isn't leaking like a sieve.
Meanwhile I'm waiting for the lead bunch to acknowledge me accepting their quote....
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On a Sunday ?? Anyway......
For soakers, code 3-4 is right. Code 6 is too thick and will lift the slates, which you don't want.
http://www.calderlead.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Calder-Guide-to-Good-Leadwork.pdf
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Next question, can I give the lime a light sanding now it's cured a bit? The corner under the roof was obviously done at the end of the day and is a bit less of a polished finish that the rest.
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As long as you don't breath in the dust or get it in your eyes (it hurts) you should be ok.
You will end up taking the thin smooth and hard layer off the top and exposing the aggregate, but if you lime wash it or go for a distemper it will cover it up again. Just don't go mad with the sandpaper, as it crumbles easily once you get under the hard top layer.
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breathe
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Hmm OK. Being as that area will be mostly hidden by hi-fi shit when we eventually get back to normal (when ever that turns out to be) maybe I'll just not bother.
It's only bugging me just now because there's nothing there except a lamp on the floor, which is casting shadows and making the texture really obvious.
Speaking of sand, I got new specs last November. I noticed they were covered in scratches in spring and could barely see though the things if the light was just right so I took them back. I'm starting to think the cause might have been all the dust that's been kicking about for the last several months....
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breathe
ok
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A plasterer who can avoid leaving bits in the corners is a rare thing.
What really gets me is when they don't finish around plug sockets properly. Light switches are another place where it seems they have a funny turn and are happy to leave the surface all uneven.
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Yeah, when I say a corner, I mean up to 2 feet away from the actual corner...
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So I've been looking at this for the past 2 weeks since we got back from holiday, trying to decide if it was my imagination.
Today I received my moisture meter - 33% (the highest reading on masonry setting), so no, not my imagination.
Well, shit >:(
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8436/29012758053_cc2834c180_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/LcKYbr)2016-09-12_06-57-29 (https://flic.kr/p/LcKYbr) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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In other news it's been 2 weeks since I accepted the lead quote.
2 weeks of radio silence.
Tokenz, I haz dem. >:( >:( >:( >:(
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For a refresher, isn't that lime on lathed stud work with a monster cavity behind it ?
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Not quite sure what you're referring to with monster cavity. This is a pic of the same area during the investigations:
(https://c3.staticflickr.com/2/1661/25630657514_cda614a1f2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/F3TPwb)20160404_171505 (https://flic.kr/p/F3TPwb) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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The square in the first picture with the damp around it has a cavity behind it, non?
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So, here's my random thoughts....
In the pic above you can see how stained that same area is before the new coat. In the today picture you csn see a white box in the middle corresponding to the box with exposed lath in the 'before' picture.
Could that really stained area of old plaster be full of salts which are holding on to the moisture?
When I do a moisture reading the white box is still high at about 16% but much lower than the stained bits.
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The square in the first picture with the damp around it has a cavity behind it, non?
There's a gap behind the whole wall between the lath and the masonry if that's what you mean? (I suspect its not so forgive me if it's not and I'm being a bit dense)
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In the pic above you can see how stained that same area is before the new coat. In the today picture you csn see a white box in the middle corresponding to the box with exposed lath in the 'before' picture.
Could that really stained area of old plaster be full of salts which are holding on to the moisture?
No it should all be dry. The damp patches look like they're over a stud on either side of the light coloured square. If you follow the line of nails in the second picture down it hits the damp patches shown in the first photo.
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OK, so what are you thinking?
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One other thing I can contribute - one of the studs removed from around the fireplace was wet. I've had this piece wood sitting in our drying loft over the summer where I thought it might dry out enough to burn on the stove. - It hasn't.
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I guess you're painting the wall with something like limewash........if so and if it was mine, I'd be inclined to wait a while and see what happens after the roof has been flashed properly and the fire has been lit for a few months.
Don't cover it up and let it dry out and it will be ok if it can dry. If they haven't blocked the air hole up and there's a free flow of air in the cavity, it should be ok, but may take some time to dry out. If it starts to smell really mushroom and stays wet for three months more, then it's possibly time to take a bit of action.
Don't get concerned about dry rot, as despite its name, it takes a great deal of water and very, very special conditions to get it going. You'll smell it before you see it, and when you see it you'll know it. Most builders and "old building specialists" wouldn't know it, even if it poked them in the eye with a sharp stick, although they will try and convince you. There's a host of other fungi that people confuse with dry rot and it's easy to freak out about it, but don't.
If you need reassurance and more guidance....
https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0419188207/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/026-7247314-7736461
http://www.ridoutassociates.co.uk
You're going in the right directions to get the building back into a dry state, but you've been a bit unlucky with some of the people you've been dealing with.
Time for gin and tonic, it's a waiting game.
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Or: paint the area with gloss paint and then cover the gloss with standard matt/wash then use the money that you had set aside for roofers for gin and drink it whilst the house is on the market.
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Or: paint the area with gloss paint and then cover the gloss with standard matt/wash then use the money that you had set aside for roofers for gin and drink it whilst the house is on the market.
Haha, it gets closer to that every time. Not the time to be selling in Aberdeen now though...
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Aunt Maud, the big air vent was in the wall on the other side of the chimney breast, so it probably won't get the benefit of that. It is all open up in the loft & there's definitely air circulation up there so I suspect there's at least some air flow. (At least when there was bare lath you could feel the wind whistling about!)
Re: your advice, that's along the lines of what I was thinking too. I'm going to paint the chimney breast and the wall on the other side of it just so I can start moving furniture back into some sort of semblance of normality but I think I will leave the alcove bare for the moment and wait & see, as you say.
Wish I knew if the work I accepted the quote for was happening or not! That will be Monday morning's first job....chasing.
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WE had the old oil boiler removed on Thursday and the new external one installed and commissioned.
On putting my hand into the hole left by the (removed) exhaust I was more than surprised to find at the back of the plaster board some 4" of space. Also and more to the point no insulation so... I had a chat with our plumber/slater and he suggested removing the plaster board on the external walls and putting up kingspan for insulation. That would leave an airgap between the insulation and the wall. any thoughts as to yea or no?
PH
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I thought kingspan was a no-no because it's not breatheable.
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If you're going to do that PH, you'll need to be very careful about cavity ventilation and moisture to prevent the stud work from rotting.
But my opinion and it's only my opinion, is that interior walls of plasterboard with kingspan insulation are not in keeping with a stone house. I have spent the last 20 years removing such work, as it's invariably badly done and creates more problems than it solves..
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What's the best thing to do with walls like that?
The reason I ask is I have something similar to Poly Hive - a downstairs room has been plasterboarded with a gap of some 150mm or so on the two outside walls. What I've removed shows bare stone, I imagine it would have originally been plastered but it's fallen off at some point due to damp penetration. The room was originally the vestry of the adjoining chapel and was built of collyweston stone in around 1873. I know the same wall further along in the chapel itself has been tanked, but the issue with that is never being able to attach anything to the wall with screws.
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It was actually my plumber who suggested the kingspan but I am completely open to ideas.
PH
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It depends whether your walls are partly covered with soil. If they are then you'll need to permanently remove all the soil and allow the air to get to it, then plaster with lime on the inside.
If you can't or don't want to remove the soil, then a good tanking system may be necessary, but all you end up doing is raising the moisture content within the wall which could create problems elsewhere, especially if you've got any timber buried in the wall.
If the floor level inside the house is higher than the ground level outside, which it should be if you want a dry house, then removing all the stud work, lime plastering the walls and installing a wood burner would be the route I would take, or do what Mrs. P has and make sure that there's really good ventilation in the cavity. It's not ideal to hide the ground floor interior surface of masonry walls behind stud work, as you really should be able to keep an eye on any damp problems. Mrs. P gets away with it because she lives upstairs. Just make sure you've got enough fuel to get through a winter of snow and cold wind.
Stone walls should be laid and pointed with lime on the outside and don't have concrete blocks or anything built onto them which isn't laid in lime. If it's rendered, it should be done in lime and lime washed and the finish needs to be maintained with lime wash regularly.
The trouble is, is that a lot of builders put cement into lime mortar or lime render so that it will make it set faster. All they end up doing is making a cement mortar with a high lime content. Nice to work with, but not a true lime mortar/render and it will suffer from all the issues a sand and cement mortar has when used on a lime built building.
You also need to ensure that the roof is weather tight, has a good eves projection, is flashed properly and the guttering is working to keep the walls as dry as possible
As for insulation, fill the loft with 300mm of it and it'll be warm enough with the burner going, you'll need a draught and fresh air is your buildings friend. Forget about the 21st century way of building houses and enjoy living in an old house, that's why you bought it after all. <Smiley>
Slab paths, drives and any form of concrete apron which abut the walls of an old building are a no-no, as they keep the soil damp and splash water up the walls when it rains.
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Oh dear. It sounds like everything is wrong with my house.
Ground floor inside lower than ground outside in several places. Repointed with cement mortar. Concrete apron to attempt to stop ingress of damp. Guttering not working due to inadequate down pipe. The roof is at least in good condition, but there is zero eaves overhang.
Perhaps I should just move. :-\
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Can you move the built up ground away from the wall, or is it too deep ?
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My parents old house, built in 1853, had terribe damp problems in the basement until they discovered a drainage ditch, hidden under stone pavers, around the outside that had become blocked. A few days work with a hoe to clear it all around and eventually the damp improved. Other things had been tried previously including a smelly black tar like paint.
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Oh hooray! The contractor doing the leadwork has broken cover and is going to start the job on Monday.
Fingers crossed this works, or I'm moving to the Atacama desert.
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Ah see, this is what I was wondering if my problem is... it suggests hygroscopic salts in the plaster are there for good. The description of the greasy stain is familiar.
http://www.preservationexpert.co.uk/damp-stains-on-a-chimney-breast-and-adjacent-ceiling-it-may-be-salts/
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Do you have fine candy floss type crystals on the surface ?
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No. There is visible salt on the stone wall in the loft (in between rain) but on the internal walls, no. Before the lime skim was done it just looked and felt greasy.
Because there had been paper up I sugar soaped the wall to get rid of the paste, but the greasy look and feel remained even once the sticky feel was gone.
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It's a shame your contractor didn't find out exactly why there was a damp patch in that spot, they should have.
What's on the outside of the wall just there ?
More on damp in old buildings from a well respected source. http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/risingdamp/risingdamp.htm
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Indeed. They don't seem to do joined up thinking....
I don't think there's anything on the wall on the outside, but I suspect the flue(s) run up where the top of the alcove is (well, they must do to come out at the ridge as my fireplace is about halfway down the roof.
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I'll add more on general damp/moisture.....
We are in the middle of a fashion for sealing up buildings with membranes, double glazing, draught excluder and all the other guff that people like to draught proof their houses in an attempt to reduce heating costs and make it feel less breezy inside.
The reduction of natural airflow into and out of a building will result in elevated humidity and increase the amount of condensation on solid masonry surfaces because the surface of solid masonry walls and stone floors is always at a lower temperature than the air in the room, unless they are in close proximity to a heat source. So there will always be a small amount of condensation on solid masonry, making the surface look and feel slightly damp and increasing the humidity in the building by sealing it up only makes it worse.
Having a natural draught and a wood burner will go a long way to reduce the humidity in the air within the building.
We find, with two wood burners, that the house feels much dryer in the colder months than it does in the summer when the burners aren't going all the time and lighting the wood burner for an hour or so in the summer quickly dries the air out and makes the house feel a lot nicer.
I have a feeling I'm going to end up making my fortune by dispensing free old building advice on YACF.
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The meter usually says about 70pc humidity if I don't have the door and a window open so not surprising the salty bits a damp. I have been wondering if I ought to get the DG window replaced by one with a trickle vent, but I doubt it would make enough difference to justify the upheaval.
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Ouch! That's a wee bit high.
Mine in the living room was about 62% yesterday evening, its been damp and manky most of the day, with a cataclysmic rainstorm that morning.
A friend who lives in a 1930's house similar to mine, paid lots of money for a new kitchen with real wood doors recently, and they immediately expanded and jammed. The manufacturers say they should not exceed 55% RH... In a kitchen, are you friggin' joking? Evidently not. I have suggested that the company consults Met Office weather records, and duly notes the actual RH recorded, and then tries to explain how it could possibly be lower than the ambient air, inside a kitchen, which is used by real people who do things like breathe, and cook.
If you want to monitor the RH, you could get a datalogger, I've got one that records temp and RH, that cost about £50 from Omega engineering. We also have two of them at work, for checking things out when tenants complain about the temperature, or damp issues. They often look at me a bit odd when I later tell them what time they had a shower, and what time they cooked dinner.
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You really need to get that roof sorted.
I'd light the fire and open the windows regularly from now on to try and dry it all out. What's the ventilation in the bathroom and kitchen like ?
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Ouch! That's a wee bit high.
You should try living in the Vale of York.
The ambient RH is often over 70% for weeks on end.
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It is pretty much close to 70% most of the time at this time of year (and we do live in Aberdeen, not exactly the driest place on earth!), unless I have the dehumidifier on (in the winter) or the door & window open (which is only when it's a-warm enough and b-not so windy it slams the door shut.
I'm not sure I would benefit from a datalogger - I look at the meter every time I come into the room. It drops when I open the windows and it goes back up when we shut them and breathe ;D
The bathroom has an extractor, as does the kitchen although Pingu only uses it when the pasta is actually boiling :hand:.
Once I've got the wall around the stove painted I will see if Pingu will let me get it going :)
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Count yourself lucky that you don't live in a rotten boarded up shanty like Mrs. A M and the Maudettes.
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/Bugloss/IMG_2064_zpskj5zbfd2.jpg)
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/Bugloss/IMG_2060_zpsvg0h6wsh.jpg)
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Can you move the built up ground away from the wall, or is it too deep ?
Some of it is public footpath, the other side it's not my land, so that's not really possible. I have a woodburner, and enjoy draughts, but given the walls are full of moisture, and the bathroom's next to the sitting room, the humidity goes over 80% without the dehumidifier running in the background.
This shows the layout (click for larger):
(http://handsonit.co.uk/2016/ScreenShot.png) (http://handsonit.co.uk/2016/ScreenShot.png)
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Is that all raised ground around the back ?
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Woo, there are 2 nice young men with their lead out on my roof.
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Phwaar!
Eeer daaarlin', get yer lead out!
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Fingers, toes, flippers and other appendages crossed that this actually sorts it out...
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Is there not some communal responsibility for the roof at the igloo, along with your doonstairs neighbour which might mitigate costs?
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There is, but after asking for half this and half that etc, etc for all the various works that haven't fixed it again, combined with the fact that he is difficult to get hold of and communicates mostly by text I couldn't face going through it all again.
Cutting off my wallet to spite my face, maybe, but I couldn't handle any more stress than it's already caused me TBH.
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Unless specified otherwise in the deeds an Aberdeen tenement roof is a "mutualality" so the other flat carries half the cost.
PH
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If the weather with you is anything like the West Coast the lead and young men will be in the North Sea!
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I think I just saw them blow past.
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So the original contractor was in yesterday while I was out, inspecting the stained plaster:
It looks to me that there is some kind of staining on the wall within the original plaster. The little square we re-plastered is looking completely differently and the immediate surrounding areas.
The moisture readings in the new patch is also different than it he surrounding areas where as you pointed out the reading is a.very high.
Yup, I told you all that.
I also tested other areas on the walls and I got readings that indicated that all the walls contained dampness.
One area where the readings were very high as well was on the fire board surrounding the stove. The readings there were in the same regions as the readings on the stained area.
Depends on your definition of dampness. I get around 9% reading on most areas, about 12% on the wall with the stain and >25% on the stained patches.
The fireboard hmm.... well, I know that it's not in contact with the wall behind, so it shouldn't be damp transfer, and I also notice that within the space of a few inches where the fireproof plaster transitions to the lime plaster above that the reading suddenly gets lower on the lime plaster. I suspect the difference in readings is down to the different resistance of the 2 construction materials.
I understand from you that the staining is not getting bigger in any way?
It seems to me that the staining is caused by something within the historic fabric (possibly grease/oil of some sort).
If there had been a problem with moisture ingress I would have expected to see the area of the stain increasing and include the small square that got replastered.
Grease or oil??? WTF?
Not once has he mentioned the possibility of hygroscopic salts, either making the plaster damp, or creating a falsely high reading of due to the conductivity of salt. Why the hell do I appear know more about this stuff than he does?
>:(
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One other thing I can contribute - one of the studs removed from around the fireplace was wet. I've had this piece wood sitting in our drying loft over the summer where I thought it might dry out enough to burn on the stove. - It hasn't.
I should probably clarify that when I mentioned this I was referring to salts. It's a piece of wood about 2' long. About 6" of one end have always been 'wet' feeling (more salty greasy really). I noticed that in the summer it did start to feel a bit drier but not a lot. Now the days have started to cool down its started to feel greasier and wetter again, which I think would fit with my hygroscopic salt theory.
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Your original contractor should have made a hole large enough to HAVE A BLOODY GOOD LOOK AT THE BACK OF IT.......regardless.
Now he sounds like he's talking out of his behind and is going to bluff his way out of it. It'll eventually turn out to be all your fault, and of course you should have known better. He'll probably end up saying "I told you so, blah, blah, and that when I told so, you also said you didn't want to spend any more money on it when I told you so, like I did tell you so, so much, remember ?". (Standard shonky builder practice).
It's obvious from the state of the roofing work they carried out that he doesn't know his arse from his elbow and is a pants builder. You should take issue with, and point a very sharp and pointy finger at your surveyor, if it was him who recommended the contractor.
And at the end of the day, and if he was any good and gave a damn, he'd take out his tools and cut off the stained plaster, inspect it, repair it and clean up without fuss or further cost to you.
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Roof is just about finished I think. The slater said it needed 120 new slates, eek. Oh well, it's only money.
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Lets hope it sorts it all out.
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Desperate measures call for the chainsaw.......
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/Bugloss/IMG_2079_zps01yx8wbw.jpg)
New soleplate in place.....
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/Bugloss/IMG_2080_zpspx92rxaa.jpg)
Nearly finished.....Except I've got to get that timber out under the window on the left now.
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So this morning a crack has appeared above the stove. Looks like it's around the same place as where the two pieces of fireproof board meet in this photo >:(
I'm going to have to get the stove guy to rip it all out and replace it with one piece, aren't I? :facepalm:
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/8/7365/27492875303_043caa3fed_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HTsaZr)IMG_4466 (https://flic.kr/p/HTsaZr) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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A crack in the plaster?
I don't think you'll need it all ripping out, but experts may disagree (hopefully more experienced voices will chime in). Some shrinkage over a period of n weeks is normal and I think less drastic fixes are normal (thin washes of weak plaster solution come to mind).
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It's probably just the timber drying out from the heat of the stove.
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There isn't any wood there.
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What's under the joint then ?
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What's holding the fibreboard up is, for want of a better word, meccano.
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There isn't any wood there.
But to the left and the right of the board I spy timber. If the board is fastened to that, then it will indeed shift a bit as it dries.
Does Aunt Maud think that repairs just need a bit of plaster filler or ripping off?
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Yes that's wooden beading. I don't think the board is directly attached to the beading, but obviously the plaster is, a bit.
Apparently you can get wood effect beams made of stone... that might cover up the crack and also give me my mantlepiece back. Guess I'll see if any other shifting occurs over the next few weeks...
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I'm no expert in building matters, but you've only recently just fired up the woodburner for the first time, after all the building work.
These things generate a bunch of heat.
Frankly, I'd have been surprised if there wasn't some cracking.
I'd be inclined to let it be for a longish time to let things settle down, and then do the filling-in or whatever.
It might be that the extreme temperature cycling will continue to cause issues, I don't know.
Is it even possible to construct such a structure that doesn't move at least a little bit with the temperature cycling caused by a woodburner?
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The crack disappeared when the stove got warmed up again, so I just need to keep it fired up, all the time ;)
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Does Aunt Maud think that repairs just need a bit of plaster filler or ripping off?
I'm always reluctant to go backwards and re-do simple things which should have be done right the first time.
In this case, I would contact whoever built it and ask them to sort it out. If they were experienced in fires and surrounds, they would know that putting a joint like that on a piece of steel, just there, is the work of a numbskull.
I think it's highly likely that there will always be a crack there because the joint is in a place which is subject to a wide range of temperature and the piece of steel will expand and contract every time the fire's lit.
Personally, and as I live in a crumbly pile anyway, I don't mind cracks in plaster as they are my cracks in my plaster and get filled when I lime wash the walls and ceiling. I don't mind a bit of patina either, but I would be cheesed off with a crack just there, more so if I had paid for it not to be there.
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<looks at torrential downpour, goes up in loft to investigate, does tentative little happy dance>
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That sounds promising.
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Sounds like you're home and dry.
What will we do for entertainment now ?
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Ah well, there's still the stained wall and the famous crack. One day....
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Guess what?.
The wall in the loft is all wet again. Fuck. :facepalm:
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Chuffing nora! >:(
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Is it as wet as it was before ?
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It's quite wet. But I need to go up there when it's actually raining to see if it's running down the wall or seeping from in the chimney I suppose.
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I guess you'll find out tonight. WoooOOOOooooOOOOO
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I missed all the rain today and accoring to Yr there's no more forecast until after midnight.
When I shall be in my bed.
Looking like :smug:
:D
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Lots of new damp patches today :(
Took a look in the attic - water running down the wall, and then soaking into the floorboard which have been butted right up to the wall.
Suppose the next DIY job will be trimming those back if I can manage it. I assume that the big bit of wood lying across the top was only there as a frame for the plasterboard, and it's not going to make anything fall down if I chop it up... :-\
Do I have an echo? Why are you quoting but not quoting my posts?
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Registered 2 days ago.
Total time on line: 11 minutes.
Number of posts: 10.
Make of that what you will....
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Indeed.
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At least four of his posts are reposts of much earlier text from other members. I CBA looking at any of the others.
(ETA - Having copied details of those four to the mods, I just looked at all the rest. All copied. Strange behaviour.)
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Registered 2 days ago.
Total time on line: 11 minutes.
Number of posts: 10.
Make of that what you will....
All of his posts that I have checked to date are copies of posts from page 1 of their respective threads. I have reported this.
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I reported it yesterday morning, glad to see the posts are gone now. Very odd behaviour though.
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I reported it yesterday morning, glad to see the posts are gone now. Very odd behaviour though.
Presumably an attempt to build up bot credibility in order to slip past the spam radar. Probably works on larger forums.