Author Topic: Solid wall buildings part elebenty - alternatives to lath and plaster (Read 48815 times)

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #275 on:** 16 September, 2016, 07:13:09 pm »

OK, so what are you thinking?

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #276 on:** 16 September, 2016, 09:02:19 pm »

One other thing I can contribute - one of the studs removed from around the fireplace was wet. I've had this piece wood sitting in our drying loft over the summer where I thought it might dry out enough to burn on the stove. - It hasn't.

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #277 on:** 16 September, 2016, 10:34:16 pm »

I guess you're painting the wall with something like limewash........if so and if it was mine, I'd be inclined to wait a while and see what happens after the roof has been flashed properly and the fire has been lit for a few months.

Don't cover it up and let it dry out and it will be ok if it can dry. If they haven't blocked the air hole up and there's a free flow of air in the cavity, it should be ok, but may take some time to dry out. If it starts to smell really mushroom and stays wet for three months more, then it's possibly time to take a bit of action.

Don't get concerned about dry rot, as despite its name, it takes a great deal of water and very, very special conditions to get it going. You'll smell it before you see it, and when you see it you'll know it. Most builders and "old building specialists" wouldn't know it, even if it poked them in the eye with a sharp stick, although they will try and convince you. There's a host of other fungi that people confuse with dry rot and it's easy to freak out about it, but don't.

If you need reassurance and more guidance....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0419188207/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/026-7247314-7736461

http://www.ridoutassociates.co.uk

You're going in the right directions to get the building back into a dry state, but you've been a bit unlucky with some of the people you've been dealing with.

Time for gin and tonic, it's a waiting game.

Jaded · « **Reply #278 on:** 16 September, 2016, 11:56:59 pm »

Or: paint the area with gloss paint and then cover the gloss with standard matt/wash then use the money that you had set aside for roofers for gin and drink it whilst the house is on the market.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #279 on:** 17 September, 2016, 02:48:50 pm »

Quote from: Jaded on 16 September, 2016, 11:56:59 pm

Or: paint the area with gloss paint and then cover the gloss with standard matt/wash then use the money that you had set aside for roofers for gin and drink it whilst the house is on the market.

Haha, it gets closer to that every time. Not the time to be selling in Aberdeen now though...

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #280 on:** 17 September, 2016, 02:57:57 pm »

Aunt Maud, the big air vent was in the wall on the other side of the chimney breast, so it probably won't get the benefit of that. It is all open up in the loft & there's definitely air circulation up there so I suspect there's at least some air flow. (At least when there was bare lath you could feel the wind whistling about!)

Re: your advice, that's along the lines of what I was thinking too. I'm going to paint the chimney breast and the wall on the other side of it just so I can start moving furniture back into some sort of semblance of normality but I think I will leave the alcove bare for the moment and wait & see, as you say.

Wish I knew if the work I accepted the quote for was happening or not! That will be Monday morning's first job....chasing.

Poly Hive · « **Reply #281 on:** 17 September, 2016, 04:09:24 pm »

WE had the old oil boiler removed on Thursday and the new external one installed and commissioned.

On putting my hand into the hole left by the (removed) exhaust I was more than surprised to find at the back of the plaster board some 4" of space. Also and more to the point no insulation so... I had a chat with our plumber/slater and he suggested removing the plaster board on the external walls and putting up kingspan for insulation. That would leave an airgap between the insulation and the wall. any thoughts as to yea or no?

PH

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #282 on:** 17 September, 2016, 08:23:52 pm »

I thought kingspan was a no-no because it's not breatheable.

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #283 on:** 19 September, 2016, 06:23:06 am »

If you're going to do that PH, you'll need to be very careful about cavity ventilation and moisture to prevent the stud work from rotting.

But my opinion and it's only my opinion, is that interior walls of plasterboard with kingspan insulation are not in keeping with a stone house. I have spent the last 20 years removing such work, as it's invariably badly done and creates more problems than it solves..

Pickled Onion · « **Reply #284 on:** 19 September, 2016, 07:43:13 am »

What's the best thing to do with walls like that?

The reason I ask is I have something similar to Poly Hive - a downstairs room has been plasterboarded with a gap of some 150mm or so on the two outside walls. What I've removed shows bare stone, I imagine it would have originally been plastered but it's fallen off at some point due to damp penetration. The room was originally the vestry of the adjoining chapel and was built of collyweston stone in around 1873. I know the same wall further along in the chapel itself has been tanked, but the issue with that is never being able to attach anything to the wall with screws.

Poly Hive · « **Reply #285 on:** 20 September, 2016, 03:32:15 pm »

It was actually my plumber who suggested the kingspan but I am completely open to ideas.

PH

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #286 on:** 21 September, 2016, 06:56:10 am »

It depends whether your walls are partly covered with soil. If they are then you'll need to permanently remove all the soil and allow the air to get to it, then plaster with lime on the inside.

If you can't or don't want to remove the soil, then a good tanking system may be necessary, but all you end up doing is raising the moisture content within the wall which could create problems elsewhere, especially if you've got any timber buried in the wall.

If the floor level inside the house is higher than the ground level outside, which it should be if you want a dry house, then removing all the stud work, lime plastering the walls and installing a wood burner would be the route I would take, or do what Mrs. P has and make sure that there's really good ventilation in the cavity. It's not ideal to hide the ground floor interior surface of masonry walls behind stud work, as you really should be able to keep an eye on any damp problems. Mrs. P gets away with it because she lives upstairs. Just make sure you've got enough fuel to get through a winter of snow and cold wind.

Stone walls should be laid and pointed with lime on the outside and don't have concrete blocks or anything built onto them which isn't laid in lime. If it's rendered, it should be done in lime and lime washed and the finish needs to be maintained with lime wash regularly.

The trouble is, is that a lot of builders put cement into lime mortar or lime render so that it will make it set faster. All they end up doing is making a cement mortar with a high lime content. Nice to work with, but not a true lime mortar/render and it will suffer from all the issues a sand and cement mortar has when used on a lime built building.

You also need to ensure that the roof is weather tight, has a good eves projection, is flashed properly and the guttering is working to keep the walls as dry as possible

As for insulation, fill the loft with 300mm of it and it'll be warm enough with the burner going, you'll need a draught and fresh air is your buildings friend. Forget about the 21st century way of building houses and enjoy living in an old house, that's why you bought it after all. <Smiley>

Slab paths, drives and any form of concrete apron which abut the walls of an old building are a no-no, as they keep the soil damp and splash water up the walls when it rains.

Pickled Onion · « **Reply #287 on:** 21 September, 2016, 08:20:52 am »

Oh dear. It sounds like everything is wrong with my house.

Ground floor inside lower than ground outside in several places. Repointed with cement mortar. Concrete apron to attempt to stop ingress of damp. Guttering not working due to inadequate down pipe. The roof is at least in good condition, but there is zero eaves overhang.

Perhaps I should just move. $:-\$

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #288 on:** 21 September, 2016, 09:50:21 am »

Can you move the built up ground away from the wall, or is it too deep ?

Vince · « **Reply #289 on:** 21 September, 2016, 10:28:17 am »

My parents old house, built in 1853, had terribe damp problems in the basement until they discovered a drainage ditch, hidden under stone pavers, around the outside that had become blocked. A few days work with a hoe to clear it all around and eventually the damp improved. Other things had been tried previously including a smelly black tar like paint.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #290 on:** 21 September, 2016, 07:20:04 pm »

Oh hooray! The contractor doing the leadwork has broken cover and is going to start the job on Monday.

Fingers crossed this works, or I'm moving to the Atacama desert.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #291 on:** 21 September, 2016, 10:30:38 pm »

Ah see, this is what I was wondering if my problem is... it suggests hygroscopic salts in the plaster are there for good. The description of the greasy stain is familiar.
http://www.preservationexpert.co.uk/damp-stains-on-a-chimney-breast-and-adjacent-ceiling-it-may-be-salts/

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #292 on:** 22 September, 2016, 05:57:24 am »

Do you have fine candy floss type crystals on the surface ?

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #293 on:** 22 September, 2016, 06:42:57 am »

No. There is visible salt on the stone wall in the loft (in between rain) but on the internal walls, no. Before the lime skim was done it just looked and felt greasy.
Because there had been paper up I sugar soaped the wall to get rid of the paste, but the greasy look and feel remained even once the sticky feel was gone.

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #294 on:** 22 September, 2016, 06:59:23 am »

It's a shame your contractor didn't find out exactly why there was a damp patch in that spot, they should have.

What's on the outside of the wall just there ?

More on damp in old buildings from a well respected source. http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/risingdamp/risingdamp.htm

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #295 on:** 22 September, 2016, 07:09:40 am »

Indeed. They don't seem to do joined up thinking....
I don't think there's anything on the wall on the outside, but I suspect the flue(s) run up where the top of the alcove is (well, they must do to come out at the ridge as my fireplace is about halfway down the roof.

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #296 on:** 22 September, 2016, 07:34:25 am »

I'll add more on general damp/moisture.....

We are in the middle of a fashion for sealing up buildings with membranes, double glazing, draught excluder and all the other guff that people like to draught proof their houses in an attempt to reduce heating costs and make it feel less breezy inside.

The reduction of natural airflow into and out of a building will result in elevated humidity and increase the amount of condensation on solid masonry surfaces because the surface of solid masonry walls and stone floors is always at a lower temperature than the air in the room, unless they are in close proximity to a heat source. So there will always be a small amount of condensation on solid masonry, making the surface look and feel slightly damp and increasing the humidity in the building by sealing it up only makes it worse.

Having a natural draught and a wood burner will go a long way to reduce the humidity in the air within the building.

We find, with two wood burners, that the house feels much dryer in the colder months than it does in the summer when the burners aren't going all the time and lighting the wood burner for an hour or so in the summer quickly dries the air out and makes the house feel a lot nicer.

I have a feeling I'm going to end up making my fortune by dispensing free old building advice on YACF.

Mrs Pingu · « **Reply #297 on:** 22 September, 2016, 07:44:46 am »

The meter usually says about 70pc humidity if I don't have the door and a window open so not surprising the salty bits a damp. I have been wondering if I ought to get the DG window replaced by one with a trickle vent, but I doubt it would make enough difference to justify the upheaval.

Wombat · « **Reply #298 on:** 22 September, 2016, 08:49:47 am »

Ouch! That's a wee bit high.

Mine in the living room was about 62% yesterday evening, its been damp and manky most of the day, with a cataclysmic rainstorm that morning.

A friend who lives in a 1930's house similar to mine, paid lots of money for a new kitchen with real wood doors recently, and they immediately expanded and jammed. The manufacturers say they should not exceed 55% RH... In a kitchen, are you friggin' joking? Evidently not. I have suggested that the company consults Met Office weather records, and duly notes the actual RH recorded, and then tries to explain how it could possibly be lower than the ambient air, inside a kitchen, which is used by real people who do things like breathe, and cook.

If you want to monitor the RH, you could get a datalogger, I've got one that records temp and RH, that cost about £50 from Omega engineering. We also have two of them at work, for checking things out when tenants complain about the temperature, or damp issues. They often look at me a bit odd when I later tell them what time they had a shower, and what time they cooked dinner.

Aunt Maud · « **Reply #299 on:** 22 September, 2016, 09:47:06 am »

You really need to get that roof sorted.

I'd light the fire and open the windows regularly from now on to try and dry it all out. What's the ventilation in the bathroom and kitchen like ?