Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Freewheeling => MTB => Topic started by: rogerzilla on 02 August, 2017, 06:31:11 pm

Title: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: rogerzilla on 02 August, 2017, 06:31:11 pm
Steel, rigid, elegant.  I'm building up a 1992 Kona Kilauea but, for obscure reasons, have also acquired a cheap and complete Kona Fire Mountain (almost the same geometry but heavier) and it's a revelation.  I found my 2013 Kona Cinder Cone very disappointing to ride - it was fairly light but very stodgy to ride, and the fork lockout didn't really do much when riding on the road.  Probably OK for chucking down a rocky slope but not much good for anything else.  The Fire Mountain looks better and you can actually ride out of the saddle without it pogoing.  And you don't have to bleed the sodding brakes every six months when the fluid swells up and the rear brake starts to drag.

I think MTB design reached a kind of apogee around 1992/93, just before they all went fat-tubed and bouncy.  V-brakes were slightly later, I think, and are much easier to set up than cantilevers* so I'll maybe extend that timeline a little.  It no doubt sells bikes but makes them ugly and horrible for general use.  This may be why an early 90s MTB in decent condition sells for as much as a nearly new one on the Bay of Thieves.  They don't make them like that any more, there's nothing expensive to wear out like suspension, and a 25 year old steel frame is usually a good bet - a well-used aluminium one less so.

*there are two theories for the introduction of V-brakes; one is that they don't need cable stops so are easy to fit to a suspension frame but the other is a product liability one; a conventional cantilever setup (straddle cable and yoke) on a bike without mudguards can throw you over the bars if the cable from the front brake lever snaps, as the straddle catches the knobbly tyre.  Mind you, I've never broken a brake cable.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Morat on 03 August, 2017, 09:04:25 pm
I still miss my Cannondales of that era even though one of them dumped me unceremoniously with a snapped stem after less than a year of use.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: rogerzilla on 03 August, 2017, 09:10:51 pm
I had a Cannondale M1000 and always regretted it...it was a good enough bike but I wished I'd bought a Kona Kilauea instead.  They were the same price in the Evans sale but the Kona had Suntour XC Comp kit and the Cannondale had Deore DX...it was obvious in 1993 that Suntour was finished because Shimano shifted better.  The Kilauea with DX would have been perfect but it was sold out everywhere.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: toontra on 03 August, 2017, 09:39:04 pm
I love the Orange Clockworks of that period (I've had 4).  They make for the perfect all-round workhorse with mounts for guards and rack.  The one I'm using at the moment has been on many foreign trips and is my daily commuter.  I run them with bullhorn bars but they could be equally converted for drop-bar use.  Absolutely bulletproof.

From bitter experience I now make sure they are liberally internally waterproofed - the bottom bracket shell and chainstays are prone to rusting from the inside out.

As you say, shortly thereafter in the mid-90's the geometry of MTB's goes to pot with steeply sloping top tubes and raised head tubes.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Morat on 03 August, 2017, 09:48:08 pm
To be honest, I always hankered after a Kona but my LBS didn't stock them. Back then everyone wanted an Explosif like the pros or dreamed of one day being a millionaire and owning a Hei Hei.

I've scratched that itch now with a Roadhouse and a Jake the Snake. They've been worth the wait!
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: rogerzilla on 03 August, 2017, 09:52:54 pm
The sloping top tube is Kona's fault, since they popularised it (then Giant adopted it for the road).  Kona admit it was a very old idea but on MTBs it has a practical use because it gives greater standover height; on road bikes it's just a way of making fewer standard frame sizes fit more people.

It has become extreme these days, with very high front ends meaning the frames are almost BMX-like in proportion.  An 18" frame on a new MTB is really quite a large one, whereas it was medium 20 years ago.

GT frames were nice too; I was waiting to open up our Mutley Plain, Plymouth branch the Friday morning before the Worlds at Newnham Park when Juli Furtado rode past on her GT Xizang.  Trufax.  The only issue with GT was that everyone secretly knew the "triple triangle" was marketing BS and just added weight; it hasn't endured like the sloping top tube.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Torslanda on 03 August, 2017, 11:13:05 pm
My stable includes a 92 Trek 950 which I've owned since 94, a 94 model which I bought as a frameset when I got the shop, a pair of DynaTechs, a Marin Bear Valley and at least a couple of other frames languishing in the cellar.

Oh! And a purple Saracen Powertrax (which IIRC came originally from Tiermat) and was recently donated back by Polar Bear.

No pics I'm afraid, blame photobucket, rapacious thieving gits . . .
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Palinurus on 04 August, 2017, 09:15:32 am
My second commuting bike was a Muddy Fox Courier comp, late 80s rather than 90s tho'. It was pretty advanced, STI rather than indexed thumb shifters.

No internet, and no-one I knew cycled. I had no idea that certain parts needed to be replaced at intervals so, although I cleaned it and oiled it, I never replaced anything until failure, which was fairly infrequent (transmission will keep going a good long time if it all wears together). Didn't replace the bike until '99 when I bought a steel Marin MTB, sloping top tube, V-brakes.

Also, pre-internet, I had no-one to suggest that more than one bike was required so those bikes were used for everything, which they were both very good for.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Quisling on 06 September, 2017, 05:52:36 pm
The bike I use most is an early 90's vintage steel framed Raleigh Kalahari. No suspension but came with a Girvin Flexstem. It can only take tyres up to about 1.75" which is laughable for an MTB these days, but came with a decent batch of braze-ons so I'm running it with 26x1" SLicks and Dirt Monkey mudguards, plus a cheap rack and a bracket for a Carry Freedom Y trailer. 21 speed setup with fairly decent standard Shimano kit. Cost about £250 25 years ago.   It's not pretty and weighs so much it has a sizeable gravitational pull of its own, but that means it's unattractive to tea leaves and makes it an excellent tool to park at Mr Tesco's Emporium of Toothy Comestibles.

The only thing wrong with it is it's tricky to make it more useful. The frame is too short for panniers without heel clipping and the frame spacings are too narrow for most sensible wheel upgrades.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: rafletcher on 06 September, 2017, 07:15:09 pm
My stable includes a 92 Trek 950 which I've owned since 94, a 94 model which I bought as a frameset when I got the shop, a pair of DynaTechs, a Marin Bear Valley and at least a couple of other frames languishing in the cellar.

Oh! And a purple Saracen Powertrax (which IIRC came originally from Tiermat) and was recently donated back by Polar Bear.

No pics I'm afraid, blame photobucket, rapacious thieving gits . . .

I too had a Trek 950.  Excellent machine.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Arellcat on 06 September, 2017, 07:19:58 pm
The sloping top tube is Kona's fault, since they popularised it (then Giant adopted it for the road).  Kona admit it was a very old idea...

Strictly speaking, the sloping top tube is Joe Murray's fault.  He worked for Marin before setting up Kona; you see a less radical approach on the late 1980s/early 1990s frames, so Murray certainly popularised it.  But Charlie Cunningham (Jacquie Phelan's hubby) was also in Marin County and was building sloping top tube frames much earlier, so it's not unlikely that the early designers fed off each other.

I still have my 1991 Specialized Stumpjumper Comp.  Tange Prestige tubing and originally in a vaguely pearlescent battleship grey, before I had it repainted blue.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: mattc on 06 September, 2017, 07:39:17 pm
Strictly speaking, the sloping top tube is Joe Murray's fault.  He worked for Marin before setting up Kona; you see a less radical approach on the late 1980s/early 1990s frames, so Murray certainly popularised it.  But Charlie Cunningham (Jacquie Phelan's hubby) was also in Marin County and was building sloping top tube frames much earlier, so it's not unlikely that the early designers fed off each other.

Sounds like they're all guilty to some extent; chuck 'em in the metal smelting tank.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Robh on 06 September, 2017, 08:38:32 pm
I was the happy owner of a 96 vintage Stumpjumper until a recent house move caused me to pass it onto the daughter's boyfriend (of 5 years). He loves it. She loves it when she can get ride it, and wants one just like it, and the same goes for the other millennials in the household. I wish I still had room for it, it was a great all-round ride. Still is, by all accounts  :)
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: firedfromthecircus on 06 September, 2017, 08:49:54 pm
Sloping top tube. 1983 Cleland Aventura.  ;D

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3854/32646187792_480f27f870_b.jpg)
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: dim on 06 September, 2017, 09:00:13 pm
I bought an old Bridgestone MB-2 and converted it with drop bars.... It was in a garden shed of one of my clients.... they brought it with from the USA, and it was placed in the shed approx 10 years ago and never ridden again .... I paid £15 for it

I added Carradice bags, a rack, water bottle and I used it for thousands of km's as my daily commuter ....

the photo shows the original tyres that was fitted when I bought it, but soon after this photo, I fitted a 2 inch wide pair of Schwalbe Marathon Supreme slicks, and a black Brooks C17 Carved saddle ....

the bike was in original condition (the green and red paintork)

I sold it for a hefty profit, and still miss it ... I would have loved to ride it with Compass Rat Trap tyres but sold it before I had the chance

(https://dgtzuqphqg23d.cloudfront.net/ZTdK9G3NIUHE4Q98Dfr5su-52XX7tJNV2yS_nRypxNg-2048x1536.jpg)

Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Karla on 06 September, 2017, 09:36:29 pm
My first full-size bike, and first bike that wasn't a gas piper, was a GT Timberline in 1998, when they were still rigid.  That bike opened up the cliched world of possibilities, riding out of my door and escaping life through the woods.  That bike has a lot to answer for. 

I outgrew it and got a Dawes MTB. What I really drooled over was an Orange - yeah right - or else a Kona - still over-budget for my teenage self.  Muddy Fox still had a vestige of credibility left, as they were shit by this point but were still within living memory of not having been shit.  Other brands I lusted after in the mags were Cannondales with their funky Fatty forks, or else some super exotic XC machines from an obscure company called Pace, who existed at some secret location in the back end of Yorkshire and made ultralight rigid forks for riders who were hard as nails (or just liked having said nails driven into their hands through the bars). 

I bought a Cannondale as my first non-1970s road bike: an early 90s vintage R400 for 100 squid from outside a shop.  I got an old Muddy Fox Seeker Mega off Freecycle when I was an underpaid youth worker and ran it as a fixed beater with a magic gear before freecycling it back when I moved (and incidentally sold the 'Dale to my now-ex boss).  A distant cousin turned out to have an Orange Clockwork he didn't ride anymore, so I got a wish-fulfillment ride in on that before he moved to Australia.  I've now got a Kona Jake as my winter/CX/touring bike, so that box is ticked too.  All it leaves is Pace.  I now work three miles from Pace HQ but I haven't been in, as that would be an  extremely financially bad idea. 

Also, nobody ever try to sell me a Timberline frame.  Please, please don't tempt me.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Torslanda on 17 September, 2017, 06:49:29 pm
I'll have a look in the cellar tomorrow...  :demon:
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: fruitcake on 17 September, 2017, 07:32:08 pm
Early 90s MTBs are good around town, partly because 559mm wheels are more manouvrable than 622, and fat tyres are less prone to pinch flats. It helps to have overbuilt stays when carrying luggage too. And yet the forks on many rigid MTBs are similarly overbuilt with one inch tubing top to bottom, designed to survive being ridden downhill but not to soak up vibration. The exceptions are those bikes with tapered forks, the butted cro-mo GTs and Marins among them. Go back to the 1980s and MTBs had tapered forks (and slack geometry) as seen upthread, resembling touring bikes more closely. Those early MTBs bikes were your transport to the trailhead too.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: rogerzilla on 18 September, 2017, 06:13:56 pm
Kona Project Two forks came in a triple-butted version which allegedly has more vertical compliance, while still remaining stiff enough laterally.  Mind you, everyone says that about their diamond frames and it's BS.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: DuncanM on 29 September, 2017, 01:03:00 pm
Of the steel bikes back in the day, I wanted an Orange Clockwork, but I lusted after a Rock Lobster (with the wishbone seatstay). Now they are built under license by Merlin. :(
There were only 2 alloy bikes I wanted - a Klein Attitude or a Pace RC200.  8)

Unfortunately I never achieved any of the above - I replaced my Townsend MTBSO piece by piece (to such an extent that a few years later I was able to build it again from the original components), but the frame was a no-name cheapo alloy one that was stupid rigid and beat the hell out of me!
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Veloman on 29 September, 2017, 01:53:05 pm
My first full-size bike, and first bike that wasn't a gas piper, was a GT Timberline in 1998, when they were still rigid.  That bike opened up the cliched world of possibilities, riding out of my door and escaping life through the woods.  That bike has a lot to answer for. 

Also, nobody ever try to sell me a Timberline frame.  Please, please don't tempt me.

Ooops!

I have one sitting in my garage just taking-up space.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: andyoxon on 12 February, 2018, 02:07:27 pm
I've  had a rush of blood to the head and picked up a mid-90s 'fully rigid' Saracen Powertrax in good nick - still with what looks like the original tyres (amber wall Ritchey Z-Max as per '95 catalogue).  Frame is a 'Made in England', Tange Chromoly double butted, and whole bike weighs about 12kg.  atm it will be for around town/Ridgeway etc. 
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: pumpkin on 28 February, 2018, 02:45:33 pm
Of the steel bikes back in the day, I wanted an Orange Clockwork, but I lusted after a Rock Lobster (with the wishbone seatstay). Now they are built under license by Merlin. :(
There were only 2 alloy bikes I wanted - a Klein Attitude or a Pace RC200.

Someone at work was on a Klein the other day - lovely condition. Pace 2000 - square tubing and expensive as I remember. Must still be some out there

EDIT

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pace-RC200-Mountain-Bike-Silver/232678593452?hash=item362cb993ac:g:EtoAAOSwOb9akwnM
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: ElyDave on 28 February, 2018, 03:56:44 pm
I've  had a rush of blood to the head and picked up a mid-90s 'fully rigid' Saracen Powertrax in good nick - still with what looks like the original tyres (amber wall Ritchey Z-Max as per '95 catalogue).  Frame is a 'Made in England', Tange Chromoly double butted, and whole bike weighs about 12kg.  atm it will be for around town/Ridgeway etc.

I'm still riding my 1997/8 Saracen Backtrax in Kermit Green.  It's had 2 new BBs a new crankset, chain and cassette, brakes and cables. Still on the original front and rear derailleurs and shifters. I span the wheels today whilst putting the Marathon Racers back on it - they are still smooth as silk.  I now use this as my run-about with a rack on the back, and have been up to 50km on it at a decent enough pace.

Since that I bought and then resold a Be-One 29'er with front suspension. Sold it again because it didn't ride anywhere as nicely as the Saracen, even with the boingy front end - or perhaps because of.

I am toying with the idea of converting it to drop bars, but that would also need new quill stem adapter, stem, brifters etc, so I'm not thinking about it too hard. A 9 or ten speed conversion might be more useful overall.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: fruitcake on 28 February, 2018, 04:47:09 pm
My lugged steel Dawes MTB really came to life when I fitted smooth tyres, drop bars and bar end shifters. Lovely ride, helped by the tapered fork which gives a little bit over potholes. The drop bar flexes slightly when I'm on the drops, unlike the original steel flat bar. It's a good work out, and I'm noticeably tired after a ride, unlike with my 700c tourer. I think when a bike is satisfying to ride, it makes you want to put more power down.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: LEE on 28 February, 2018, 05:43:44 pm
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4755/40481676652_6466137ebf_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24Feb7h)]

1996 Saracen Forcetrax.  Bought new by me. Converted* by me to a "Camping bike".

Ridden this morning (with tyres deflated slightly) to get me to Wattbike class on icy roads.  Reassuringly solid on those 2.0" Marathons.

More often seen riding through sunflowers, on holiday in France.  Hopefully it will transport me through some more fields of sunflowers this summer.

* Cantis replaced with V-Brakes.  Bars replaced with Thorn "Comfort" bars and a Quill to AHEAD stem converter.  Other than that it's pretty original.  It may even be the original chain and Cassette (freehub).

I love pootling around medieval French towns on it.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: ElyDave on 28 February, 2018, 07:55:05 pm
Nice, I like the front rack.

Here's mine

(https://i.imgur.com/YqS3fVh.jpg)
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: LEE on 01 March, 2018, 10:06:10 am
Nice, I like the front rack.

Thanks, I bodged a rear rack to fit.  Not had chance to see how it handles with front panniers yet.  Not as nicely as my Thorn with low-rider racks I'll wager.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Kim on 01 March, 2018, 03:49:31 pm
Nice, I like the front rack.

Thanks, I bodged a rear rack to fit.

There's a cyclist I see around occasionally who has a similar but much less elegantly executed bodge, where the rack leans forwards at about a 30° angle.  This doesn't seem to matter, because its primary function seems to be to keep the baskety-bar-bag-thing from rubbing on the wheel, but it did leave me wondering if and how well panniers would work on such an arrangement.  Better than you might expect, I'll wager, at least once the bike's in motion.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: andyoxon on 02 March, 2018, 12:12:04 am
I've  had a rush of blood to the head and picked up a mid-90s 'fully rigid' Saracen Powertrax in good nick - still with what looks like the original tyres (amber wall Ritchey Z-Max as per '95 catalogue).  Frame is a 'Made in England', Tange Chromoly double butted, and whole bike weighs about 12kg.  atm it will be for around town/Ridgeway etc.

I'm still riding my 1997/8 Saracen Backtrax in Kermit Green.  It's had 2 new BBs a new crankset, chain and cassette, brakes and cables. Still on the original front and rear derailleurs and shifters. I span the wheels today whilst putting the Marathon Racers back on it - they are still smooth as silk.  I now use this as my run-about with a rack on the back, and have been up to 50km on it at a decent enough pace.

Since that I bought and then resold a Be-One 29'er with front suspension. Sold it again because it didn't ride anywhere as nicely as the Saracen, even with the boingy front end - or perhaps because of.

I am toying with the idea of converting it to drop bars, but that would also need new quill stem adapter, stem, brifters etc, so I'm not thinking about it too hard. A 9 or ten speed conversion might be more useful overall.

I tested the bike (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17.msg2257819#msg2257819) out on it's first 15kmx2 commute on Monday.  Feels nice and secure on the woeful Oxfordshire road surfaces - especially down local hills in the dark.  M'thon Racers look good.  I went for silentos, with the knobbly edging...
(http://www.wigglestatic.com/product-media/69454/Schwalbe-Silento-Touring-Tyre-Road-Race-Tyres-Black-NotSet-11100183-01-0.jpg?w=430&h=430&a=7)

Will up the pressure of the tyres up to ~60psi to see how this feels, and probably stick with the 7spd for the mo (and consider the Deore M591 9spd triple I have on the shelf).
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: fruitcake on 13 May, 2018, 09:48:16 pm
(http://cyclingfortransport.com/wp-content/uploads/P1010003_v2_2x1-crop_1280px.jpg)

This is the foul weather bike which also does duty as a load hauler.  It's set up to have the drops as the main riding position, i.e. with a short reach and tall stack. Based on a Dawes One Track frame.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: andyoxon on 04 March, 2019, 06:34:45 pm
The Saracen now in knobblies mode...  I bought Schwalbe Black Jacks 2.1" (53mm), about £12 each.

edit. with new stem 120mm 35 deg, to replace the 135mm 10 deg original.  Saved 75g too...  ;)

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7891/47319837121_be3e4f55ee_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2f6uwYH)Saracen Powertrax (1995) (https://flic.kr/p/2f6uwYH) by a oxon (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145942400@N06/), on Flickr

Some testing now required.  Possibly TINAT off-road ready...  ;)

I removed the large bluemels as the clearance was minimal with knobblies. 

Previously with 'slicks' and full guards...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: slope on 05 March, 2019, 02:20:48 pm
I loves mine - it's now a shopping and haulage bike = ideal. 1987 Raleigh 'Avanti' 531 All Terrain

I'm a 72º seat tube (+ Brooks) sit back and enjoy kinda guy though  :D

https://www.flickr.com/photos/obswerve/albums/72157648266482689/with/17036820687/

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7608/17036820687_0606bac9da_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rXuaeH)
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: andyoxon on 05 March, 2019, 06:32:02 pm
Nice conversion to utility bike.    :)
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: ElyDave on 06 April, 2019, 07:10:18 pm
very retro comfy looking.

Contemplating putting the knobblies back on mine for a bit of summer fun, and the rack back on the Giant for audaxy-load bearing purposes
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: tiermat on 06 April, 2019, 09:57:47 pm
My perfect mtb was a 1998 Marin Pine Mountain, closely followed by a Mount Vision Pro of the same vintage. If I ever found a Pine Mountain in 19.5",i think I might be tempted to see my first born.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: JennyB on 07 April, 2019, 04:17:49 am
My perfect mtb was a 1998 Marin Pine Mountain, closely followed by a Mount Vision Pro of the same vintage. If I ever found a Pine Mountain in 19.5",i think I might be tempted to see my first born.

Surely any bike would get you there just as well?
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: tiermat on 07 April, 2019, 07:06:59 am
Good point! Damned autocarrot!
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: T42 on 07 April, 2019, 08:43:54 am
My 1994 MBK frame reborn in 2011 as a tourer, mostly as a proof of principle on the way to building an LHT.

(https://pbase.com/johnewing/image/139626062.jpg)

In the end I didn't much like either: they knocked about 3 kph off my average speed.  I still have the frame, cold set for a 9-speed cassette, and the 1999-vintage Shim 105 STIs (along with the rest of the 105 transmission), but the rubber on the levers is perished. Anyone passing through the Bas-Rhin with a 3-ton truck is welcome to haul away the lot.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: rogerzilla on 07 April, 2019, 08:57:51 am
Apart from the unicrown fork, it doesn't look all that different to a 26" LHT.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: andyoxon on 07 April, 2019, 09:40:47 am
I only found it recently, but I wonder if anyone can spot (may need the larger image) the slight 'frame building' mistake on my Saracen...

Nothing serious, but a bit irritating.

Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: toontra on 07 April, 2019, 10:01:37 am
My 1991 Clockwork used for touring and commuting (here at top of Tenerife):


(https://i.postimg.cc/KjTZBnkH/OC.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wq2LPq7G)
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 07 April, 2019, 10:28:52 am
I only found it recently, but I wonder if anyone can spot (may need the larger image) the slight 'frame building' mistake on my Saracen...

Nothing serious, but a bit irritating.

A couple of idiosyncrasies might qualify.

There was a fashion for putting the seatpost binder bolt in front of the seat tube. Apparently to minimise water/ dirt getting into the seat tube but there was a greater incidence of fatigue cracking as a result. My fat thighs tend to annoyingly rub against such QRs.

Extending the top tube past the seat tube is just a styling exercise but it worked for GT.

Putting the rear gear cable along the top of the seat stay guaranteed it would collect water and muck but was much more common than routing it underneath the seat stay.

The seat tube bidon bolts should be a shade lower to avoid clashing with the front mech clamp, particularly if the biggest chainring size alters.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: andyoxon on 07 April, 2019, 10:37:42 am
I only found it recently, but I wonder if anyone can spot (may need the larger image) the slight 'frame building' mistake on my Saracen...

Nothing serious, but a bit irritating.

A couple of idiosyncrasies might qualify.

There was a fashion for putting the seatpost binder bolt in front of the seat tube. Apparently to minimise water/ dirt getting into the seat tube but there was a greater incidence of fatigue cracking as a result. My fat thighs tend to annoyingly rub against such QRs.

Extending the top tube past the seat tube is just a styling exercise but it worked for GT.

Putting the rear gear cable along the top of the seat stay guaranteed it would collect water and muck but was much more common than routing it underneath the seat stay.

The seat tube bidon bolts should be a shade lower to avoid clashing with the front mech clamp, particularly if the biggest chainring size alters.

Yes.  The front mech band is inbetween the bidon bolt threads, as the threads are too low.  The band is currently sat right next to the bottom thread, so can't be lowered, and in fact the front mech is 3-4mm above the largest chain ring...  Mech seems to work OK.  Couldn't get a second bidon cage on though.  I guess I could always file the thread 'boss' down and touch up with some metal paint if needed.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 07 April, 2019, 10:37:54 am
My 1994 MBK frame reborn in 2011 as a tourer, mostly as a proof of principle on the way to building an LHT.

(https://pbase.com/johnewing/image/139626062.jpg)

In the end I didn't much like either: they knocked about 3 kph off my average speed.

I'd have thought that modern wide, easy-rolling tyres would reclaim a lot of that lost speed but retain the comfort on rough roads. That top tube and stem combination looks somewhat longer than I recall your road bike having.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 07 April, 2019, 10:43:59 am
Yes.  The front mech band is inbetween the bidon bolt threads, as the lower thread is too low.  The band is currently sat right next to the thread, so can't be lowered, and in fact the front mech is 3-4mm above the largest chain ring...

I prefer having the front mech clamp between the bidon bolts because it allows big bidons on the seat tube in a small frame and a lower CoG, which feels nicer out of the saddle. There needs to be some room for adjustment though. That tends to mean fairly large big rings compared to current MTB fashion. I suspect that frame was originally specced for a different crankset and the smaller Shimano crankset maxed out the front mech adjustment. I've filed a recess in the clamp to lower the front mech before now.

Some washers should give enough clearance between the bidon cage and front mech clamp, otherwise a different bidon cage design would work. T42's photo shows something suitable.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: T42 on 07 April, 2019, 02:38:58 pm
My 1994 MBK frame reborn in 2011 as a tourer, mostly as a proof of principle on the way to building an LHT.

(https://pbase.com/johnewing/image/139626062.jpg)

In the end I didn't much like either: they knocked about 3 kph off my average speed.

I'd have thought that modern wide, easy-rolling tyres would reclaim a lot of that lost speed but retain the comfort on rough roads. That top tube and stem combination looks somewhat longer than I recall your road bike having.

Those are Schwalbe Silentos I had knocking around the workshop.  Back then the "big tyre = faster" meme hadn't yet percolated.  And you're right, the frame is too big for me: in 1994 I knew SFA about bike sizing and went with the LBS guy's opinion: he had me stand over it and since the top tube wasn't making crushing anything he said yeah, that's fine.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: pumpkin on 22 August, 2020, 02:56:54 pm
There was a thread recently on another site about old mobs. The op  was asking about getting a modern disc bike, was his 80s mtg past it. There was then a long parade of classic Konas, orange, pace etc  all still going strong. There was much love for Klein, seemingly the most desired bike out there. Great to see all these bikes still going strong in an era of the latest must have advertised in the cycling press.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: rogerzilla on 25 August, 2020, 03:42:03 pm
A 1990 Kona Cinder Cone frameset won't wear out (in normal use).  Anything with suspension will, and you won't be able to get parts 30 years later.

Same goes for carbon stuff.  No-one will be collecting *and riding* it decades later, because it won't be safe, the integrated headset will have ruined the head tube or the PF30 bottom bracket will creak like a vampire's coffin lid  ;)
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Davef on 25 August, 2020, 04:16:14 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200825/7412b618af2c2b118b4e778ba8000af5.jpg)
My 80s all terrain bike, recently out of retirement. Awaiting a rear brake. The chainset is temporary.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 August, 2020, 06:26:40 pm
A 1990 Kona Cinder Cone frameset won't wear out (in normal use).  Anything with suspension will, and you won't be able to get parts 30 years later.

Same goes for carbon stuff.  No-one will be collecting *and riding* it decades later, because it won't be safe, the integrated headset will have ruined the head tube or the PF30 bottom bracket will creak like a vampire's coffin lid  ;)
But presumably you'll be able to replace a worn out suspension fork with a new fork of compatible length, which will probably work better anyway. Rear suspension might be a problem. And press fit bottom brackets are an abhorrence, but I'm sure I read of some way of cutting threads in them, or maybe it was some sort of insert; probably not possible in a carbon frame though.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: sojournermike on 31 August, 2020, 07:37:17 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200825/7412b618af2c2b118b4e778ba8000af5.jpg)
My 80s all terrain bike, recently out of retirement. Awaiting a rear brake. The chainset is temporary.
[/b]

You normally kick along then? Chapeau!!
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Davef on 31 August, 2020, 09:30:20 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200825/7412b618af2c2b118b4e778ba8000af5.jpg)
My 80s all terrain bike, recently out of retirement. Awaiting a rear brake. The chainset is temporary.
[/b]

You normally kick along then? Chapeau!!
The chainset is a double I had knocking around.  I will see if I can get a triple.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 August, 2020, 09:41:59 pm
A 1990 Kona Cinder Cone frameset won't wear out (in normal use).  Anything with suspension will, and you won't be able to get parts 30 years later.

Same goes for carbon stuff.  No-one will be collecting *and riding* it decades later, because it won't be safe, the integrated headset will have ruined the head tube or the PF30 bottom bracket will creak like a vampire's coffin lid  ;)

The wear in a suspension frame should be in the bushings/bearings that form the rotating part of the linkage and the shock.
If anything else is wearing out there's a bigger problem with the design.

As for Carbon Fibre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbBjz6mXKjM

Whether would have performed the same had he shunted it like John Watson did at Monza is another question.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 31 August, 2020, 11:24:57 pm
As for Carbon Fibre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbBjz6mXKjM

Whether would have performed the same had he shunted it like John Watson did at Monza is another question.
What's that supposed to show? Is that a 1990s car? Or what?  ???
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 September, 2020, 12:02:50 am
As for Carbon Fibre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbBjz6mXKjM

Whether would have performed the same had he shunted it like John Watson did at Monza is another question.
What's that supposed to show? Is that a 1990s car? Or what?  ???
Woops sorry context missing:
Worlds first fully carbon fibre monocoque  F1 car design from 1981 still being raced in 2019.

Would have been baked anytime between 1981 and 1983.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4/1



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Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 September, 2020, 12:06:23 am
Just checked, that "car" won the US gp at detroit in 1982

Realistically it's only the tub (the monocoque) that will be original but that's the equivalent of a bike frame...

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Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 September, 2020, 12:15:49 am
Ah, now it makes sense! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 September, 2020, 12:20:00 am
I also checked the Hull life of the carbon fibre Boeing 787, at 44k cycles its longer than a 747 at 35k but that was less interesting.

Supposedly what kills carbon fibre over time is sunlight or at least the UV in it, F1 cars and carbon bikes don't tend to stay out in the sun for most of their life.

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Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Davef on 01 September, 2020, 07:29:14 am
I also checked the Hull life of the carbon fibre Boeing 787, at 44k cycles its longer than a 747 at 35k but that was less interesting.

Supposedly what kills carbon fibre over time is sunlight or at least the UV in it, F1 cars and carbon bikes don't tend to stay out in the sun for most of their life.

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Well I would never buy a second hand carbon fibre jumbo jet  unless I was absolutely confident it hadn’t been crashed and repaired badly.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: andyoxon on 22 January, 2021, 05:03:37 pm
Saracen now in enhanced utility mode, thanks to rack.  Better (at least) shopping capacity.  New lease of life  for the Tika panniers from early 90s... 

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50862842353_117e216d9f.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kuzmZP)PXL_SRCN2 (https://flic.kr/p/2kuzmZP) by a oxon (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145942400@N06/), on Flickr
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: rogerzilla on 27 April, 2021, 10:20:02 am
Saracens were good bikes then.  They went through a downmarket phase IIRC but are now owned by Madison.  Thankfully, they didn't suffer the same fate as Muddy Fox - reduced to a sticker on Mike Ashley's BSOs.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 April, 2021, 10:28:15 am
Saracen now in enhanced utility mode, thanks to rack.  Better (at least) shopping capacity.  New lease of life  for the Tika panniers from early 90s... 

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50862842353_117e216d9f.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kuzmZP)PXL_SRCN2 (https://flic.kr/p/2kuzmZP) by a oxon (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145942400@N06/), on Flickr
Sensible urban transport. Big tyres for the potholes, load lugging capacity, decent brakes(?), and most of all, looks not too nickable and like "ordinary bloke going to work/shops/pub/etc" rather than "a bloody cyclist"!
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: toontra on 27 April, 2021, 01:15:51 pm
I found a Saracen in a skip in the early 90's (no idea of date of origin). Had the geometry of what would now be called a hybrid.  I was my commuter for several years and actually the first bike I started long rides on.  In 2006 I used it for a London-Aberdeen 5-dayer. My luggage was a rucksack bungeed onto the rear rack.  I later discovered I'd threaded the chain the wrong way through the rear mech and it was grinding against one of the guides the whole way - I had wondered what that noise was  ::-)

I loved that bike. It was a good bike. It was yellow  ;D

Returned from whence it came (a skip )in 2008, with some sadness, but by that time I was hooked and treated myself to a Van Nic (still in use).  No room in the flat for sentimentality.
Title: Re: In praise of early 90s MTBs
Post by: Robh on 25 June, 2021, 12:34:22 am
I was the happy owner of a 96 vintage Stumpjumper until a recent house move caused me to pass it onto the daughter's boyfriend (of 5 years). He loves it. She loves it when she can get ride it, and wants one just like it, and the same goes for the other millennials in the household. I wish I still had room for it, it was a great all-round ride. Still is, by all accounts  :)
The Stumpjumper lives. The boyfriend is gone and the daughter - very cannily - insisted that she keep the bike. She rode it on a short tour of North Kent last week :-)

She stopped off en route and I tweaked a few things for her: I must say, there was a twinkle in my eye as I worked on it :-)