Author Topic: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy  (Read 6052 times)

GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« on: 21 August, 2012, 01:09:46 pm »
After a break from cycling for I while, I have started to experiment with all the wonders of GPS and route mapping.

I recently did a ride in the Peak district which I had plotted out as a route on Memory Map (old version from 2004) and uploaded to my GPS which I used on my ride. I also had my phone in my back pocket which was running the Strava app and recording the route.

The weird thing I am noticing now though, is that I am getting four different totals for height gain for the ride:

- The lowest one is from the altimeter on my GPS (an Etrex Summit HC), showing about 950m

- The highest one is from the route on Memory map (and from the track I recorded on my GPS, which I have uploaded to memory map), which shows about 1600m.

- Strava shows somewhere in between (can't remember the figure exactly).

- After noticing this, I put the route in to Mapmyride and it was different again!

I have triple checked that all routes are the same, so I am failing to see where the discrepancy has come from.

Has anyone else experienced this before? Which one is most likely to correct? Do my ego a favour and tell me it's Memory Map  ;)
I guess I could check it the old old fashioned way and count contours, but that would make all this technology rather redundant!

Thanks,
Byron

red marley

Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #1 on: 21 August, 2012, 01:40:59 pm »
Long answer warning. I did my PhD on scale-based measures of terrain slope, so can get quite excited about these things.

Perhaps we should have a FAQ on this topic since it seems to occur quite regularly (with good reason I should add, so nothing wrong in asking the question).

There is no obvious "correct" height gain because there is no standard against which height gain should be measured. Imagine traversing a really bumpy profile, with ups and downs every cm or so. If you had a really accurate measuring device that recorded every single tiny bump in the road, this would give you a large total climbing figure since all those tiny bumps would soon add up.

If you had a coarser measuring device that recorded your height, say once every minute, it would miss out all those little bumps between recordings. So your total climbing figure would be much less.

The three sources you mention all record height at different frequencies. Depending on your settings on your GPS, that device will try to measure your height directly by triangulating satellite positions. If switched on it may additionally smooth things slightly using the barometric altimeter. This will therefore miss out some of the bumps you traversed on your route.

Memory map will estimate your height by comparing your position (either from the GPS track, or by input as a route on the map) with a database of heights - the Digital Elevation Model (DEM). I seem to recall that MemoryMap uses the OS 50m DEM which effectively means it records height every 50m travelled. This may well therefore capture more of the bumps of your journey than the GPS.

Other mapping software can use different DEMs, a popular one being derived from the Space Shuttle in the late 90s (SRTM). This DEM records height at roughly 100m intervals and tends to be smoothed quite a lot, so will give lower climbing figures.

There are other added complications such as the nature of the terrain, where the road is relative to the underlying topography, and the algorithms used by the mapping software and GPS for smoothing out errors. For example, I can easily double the height my GPS records on a 200km ride depending on what settings I use for recording position. Alpine type climbs that are long and steady tend to give more consistent readings with different methods than do undulating routes. All in all this gives a slightly uncertain picture of "true" climbing.

You could argue that the more accurate measure is the "better" one in that it more closely reflects the undulations on the road. However, small undulations are often not what we think of as climbing, and so measuring height less frequently can give a figure that is closer to our intuitive feeling of how "hilly" a ride feels. The question becomes therefore, at what level of detail should that be? My personal feeling is that the traditional Audax contour counting method from OS 1:50k maps is a pretty good standard. It also happens to be quite close to using a the OS 50m DEM. Both miss out the minor undulations that you'd get going over a railway bridge for example, but would capture the small hills you might get in a gently undulating lowlands.

This is probably more detail than you wanted, but just in case it is not, a few years back I did a small experiment on the accuracy of GPS elevation readings (on what is now part of the Olympic Park):

http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~jwo/landserf/audax/elevation.html

Kim

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Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #2 on: 21 August, 2012, 01:52:42 pm »
It's also worth noting that when deriving elevation gain by correlating a track against a DEM or contour map, you can introduce quite a lot of elevation error in certain kinds of terrain as a result of error or low sample rate of the horizontal position.

Consider a flat winding road along a steep hillside:  If the GPS track is off (as it may well be in those conditions due to multipath, or simply restricted view of the sky), or the trackpoints are far enough apart that they start 'cutting corners', a DEM derived elevation plot will have you climbing and descending the hill.

It's a particular hazard when plotting routes out manually in, eg. Memory Map to work out how hilly they are before you ride them.

frankly frankie

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Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #3 on: 21 August, 2012, 03:03:14 pm »
To illustrate Kim's point - this is a clip from Memory Map showing a fragment of recorded Track (purple line) running along a cliff face, wall of rock one side and sheer drop the other.  (The main road is a bit dull by comparison.)  And two plots, both from that Track.
The upper plot is the GPS-derived elevations, the lower one is the DEM.
[edit: the GPS was a barometric model, by the look of it - like the Summit (OP).
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #4 on: 21 August, 2012, 06:27:20 pm »
Just scared myself to death feeding next month's tour route into RidewithGPS.com which gave a frightening height gain reading for each day.  Then I fed in last year's tour route, and found that came up with some very high figures as well, so breathed a sigh of relief.

Roughly, RidewithGPS.com gives a heigh gain reading about 25% higher than I see on my VDO bike computer/altimeter.

 As mentioned elsewhere I can't use my Casio wristwatch/altimeter to check, as it only notes a reading every 2 minutes, thus missing out lots of bumps on an undulating road.

And as in another current thread, I can't use the Etrex30 to check because it gives nonsense readings of Total Ascent.

--
Bryn

Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #5 on: 21 August, 2012, 10:41:20 pm »
Thanks for the replies everyone.

Jo; nicely comprehensive answer :) Don't worry about giving too much detail, I'm an engineer so it appeals to my nerdy side to look at, analyse and interpret data. I'll have a look at your link some other time thanks.

It's an interesting point you raise about whether or not we actually want to have all of the height gain recorded for a measure of how hilly a ride 'feels'. The ride was hilly, but perhaps didn't feel as hilly as the 1600m on Memory Map would suggest, but definitely more hilly than the stingy recording of my GPS (which, I think is set to record altitude using barometric pressure). Maybe I'll do a contour count for this one, just to get a comparison.
As an aside, I haven't audaxed in a few years, but I felt the AA points usually gave a decent indication of the hilliness of an event, but was never convinced by the idea that sections of an event could be counted in isolation towards AA points!

Kim; thanks for the comment on that...it's something I realised a while ago when I started using Memory Map (but before I had GPS), so I am always careful to make sure my plotted routes follow the actual route (i.e. road in this case) as closely as possible when I want an elevation estimate. In any case, that only tends to become so relevant on very steep or craggy terrain, in the more rolling hills of the Peak District I wouldn't expect the error to be so great. The main times I have noticed this is when using the GPS for climbing/mountaineering routes where the terrain is much more vertiginous so a 20m horizontal error could easily give a vertical error of a few hundred metres!

frankly frankie

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Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #6 on: 22 August, 2012, 09:39:13 am »
... I am always careful to make sure my plotted routes follow the actual route (i.e. road in this case) ...

Even that doesn't always work ... (drawn track highlighted in green in this case)  ;)


when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Kim

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Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #7 on: 22 August, 2012, 01:45:41 pm »
Indeed.  Not least because the DEM doesn't account for bridges.

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #8 on: 22 August, 2012, 02:09:47 pm »
- The highest one is from the route on Memory map (and from the track I recorded on my GPS, which I have uploaded to memory map), which shows about 1600m.
How did you get the ascent from the track in Memory-Map? In the version of Memory-Map I am using, it doesn't seem to give the ascent for tracks, but it does for routes. You can convert a track to a route, but that simplifies it quite a bit, removing most of the points. Also after converting to a route, it is presumably using the Memory-Map DEM, and not the heights recorded by the GPS.

You could try opening the GPS track in Garmin Basecamp, and see what it says for the ascent. It will just use the GPS heights for this, it may apply some sort of smoothing, not sure.

frankly frankie

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Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #9 on: 22 August, 2012, 05:16:25 pm »
Or try GPS Altitude Chart for yet another opinion ...
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #10 on: 22 August, 2012, 11:09:36 pm »
- The highest one is from the route on Memory map (and from the track I recorded on my GPS, which I have uploaded to memory map), which shows about 1600m.
How did you get the ascent from the track in Memory-Map? In the version of Memory-Map I am using, it doesn't seem to give the ascent for tracks, but it does for routes. You can convert a track to a route, but that simplifies it quite a bit, removing most of the points.


It seemed to give enough points to follow the road very accurately. I'm not very clued up on all this yet, but maybe it's in my settings on the GPS for how often it drops a point for the track.

frankly frankie

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Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #11 on: 23 August, 2012, 09:34:37 am »
I don't think that will make much difference.  From my experiments (Etrex Legend) using 'More often' puts down about 50% more points, which may be well worth doing - using 'Most' doesn't seem to increase this by much. 

Hmm - (penny drops) - but then are you 'saving' the Track in the GPS and downloading and using that 'saved' Track?  There's a big problem with that - in the Etrex that process simplifies and coarsens the recorded Track to a near-unacceptable degree. 
If you download and use the 'Active Track' that will give you far more points because it hasn't been subjected to the 'saving' process.  Make sure you have the GPS set up to record the max number of points possible (10,000) because out of the box for some reason it is factory-set to a much lower figure.

In any case since you are using a barometric model (?) I think the figures derived direct from this tracklog are likely to give you the best accuracy, rather than any DEM-derived figures.  The only problem* arises when there is a slight 'step' in the altitude graph when the barometer auto-calibrates - which it does every 20 minutes or so.  However IMO these small inaccuracies are the least-worst option.  Turning the auto-calibration off would be far more trouble than it is worth, and turning the barometer off (so using the GPS elevation data) would give an inferior, spikier, plot.

* [edit to add - also there is often an issue at the start of the day, with barometric plots - due to climactic conditions changing overnight - you may need to reject the first minute or two of Track, until the elevation stabilises to a sensible figure.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #12 on: 23 August, 2012, 10:10:25 am »
On my eTrex Cx I opt to save recorded tracks to GPX files written to the SD card, which can be handy on long outings as it will only keep the latest 30 tracks in flash memory (after that it wraps overwriting the oldest). As far as I'm aware these files contain the raw uncompressed data so as long as you opt for automatically save to SD your original data is nominally safe. It may be the act of manually 'saving' a current log file (in flash?) over-rides what is saved to SD. I'd have thought not but not tested it because I never do the manual save thing, just download the whole shebang to Mapsour ce where I play around with the data as required 

Do you know if the 'manual save' impacts/over-rides what is automatically saved to SD, FF?

frankly frankie

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Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #13 on: 23 August, 2012, 10:59:27 am »
Do you know if the 'manual save' impacts/over-rides what is automatically saved to SD, FF?

No it doesn't.  Auto-saved tracks are always good.
AFAIK the Summit (see OP) doesn't have a memory card though.

Another point of interest is that the elevation data in the Tracklog is the barometric figure (assuming a barometric model) and not the GPS figure.  If you turn the barometer off (by setting it to track pressure, rather than elevation) - then the elevation data recorded is pure GPS data as it would be in a non-barometric model.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

red marley

Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #14 on: 23 August, 2012, 11:30:04 am »
The only problem* arises when there is a slight 'step' in the altitude graph when the barometer auto-calibrates - which it does every 20 minutes or so.  However IMO these small inaccuracies are the least-worst option.  Turning the auto-calibration off would be far more trouble than it is worth, and turning the barometer off (so using the GPS elevation data) would give an inferior, spikier, plot.

* [edit to add - also there is often an issue at the start of the day, with barometric plots - due to climactic conditions changing overnight - you may need to reject the first minute or two of Track, until the elevation stabilises to a sensible figure.

Are you sure this is a problem for a typical ride? When I looked at this (admittedly a few years ago on the Edge 300), there was some adjustment at the beginning of the day, but nothing noticeable after that. And in total, the error introduced by barometric calibration was of order 10m, which is negligible on a ride of order 1000m. I have also found that for GPS without barometric altimetry, GPS-dervided height is pretty consistent, with 'spikes' either being smoothed or negligible in the scheme of things on a 200km ride. In my experience, by far the biggest influence on GPS altitude gain is the frequency at which height values are recorded. For example, two (Geko 201) GPS recordings of the same route through Suffolk (using the Audax DIY processing of GPX track output):

GPS1: Distance 221km, Total climb: 1694m
GPS2: Distance 221km, Total climb: 1215m

The only difference between the two GPS  was the frequency of recording setting ('high' and 'medium' for GPS1 and GPS2 respectively). In my experience, errors of measurement are of order 10s of metres only.

Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #15 on: 23 August, 2012, 12:41:31 pm »
I don't think that will make much difference.  From my experiments (Etrex Legend) using 'More often' puts down about 50% more points, which may be well worth doing - using 'Most' doesn't seem to increase this by much.

Having checked my settings, I have it set to drop a point every 0.2km (the Summit allows you to type in the exact distance between points.

Hmm - (penny drops) - but then are you 'saving' the Track in the GPS and downloading and using that 'saved' Track?  There's a big problem with that - in the Etrex that process simplifies and coarsens the recorded Track to a near-unacceptable degree. 
If you download and use the 'Active Track' that will give you far more points because it hasn't been subjected to the 'saving' process.  Make sure you have the GPS set up to record the max number of points possible (10,000) because out of the box for some reason it is factory-set to a much lower figure.

I have always just done it by connecting my GPS to the PC, then selecting "Import from GPS" and then selecting "Tracks" (this is in Memory Map). I have never bothered to use the Summit's save feature as I've not had a reason to...yet.

Going well off topic here, but so far, I have only really used my GPS for mountaineering/walking purposes, and even then only usually as a back up to map and compass, so am getting to grips with the nuances of how to use it for cycling. It seems that the Summit isn't really designed for this and I'd be better off with something like the Vista or Legend HCx which are more 'road friendly', though I may be wrong in this assumption (maybe I'm just trying to justify buying another GPS  ;) ). If Garmin sold a version of the Edge 800 which was powered by AA cells, then I'd probably be £400 poorer!

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #16 on: 23 August, 2012, 01:19:54 pm »
I don't think that will make much difference.  From my experiments (Etrex Legend) using 'More often' puts down about 50% more points, which may be well worth doing - using 'Most' doesn't seem to increase this by much.
Having checked my settings, I have it set to drop a point every 0.2km (the Summit allows you to type in the exact distance between points.
At 0.2km, it may be cutting the corners a bit. I think its usually more useful to use the "Auto" mode (set to "More often" or "Most"). Then it will add more points on the corners, and less when you are going in a straight line.

Quote
I have always just done it by connecting my GPS to the PC, then selecting "Import from GPS" and then selecting "Tracks" (this is in Memory Map). I have never bothered to use the Summit's save feature as I've not had a reason to...yet.
But then how do you get the ascent for that track?

Quote
Going well off topic here, but so far, I have only really used my GPS for mountaineering/walking purposes, and even then only usually as a back up to map and compass, so am getting to grips with the nuances of how to use it for cycling. It seems that the Summit isn't really designed for this and I'd be better off with something like the Vista or Legend HCx which are more 'road friendly', though I may be wrong in this assumption (maybe I'm just trying to justify buying another GPS  ;) ). If Garmin sold a version of the Edge 800 which was powered by AA cells, then I'd probably be £400 poorer!
There's not really much difference between the Summit HC and the Vista /Legend HCx. The main difference is the microSD card, which gives much more space for maps, or recording tracks. Plus the Vista/Legend support autorouting.
The Summit HC has 24MB of maps, which is enough for road maps of a fairly large area. Though you'll need to find some maps with fairly small tiles, to fit the area you want.

If you wanted to upgrade, I think it would be more worthwhile getting something like the Etrex 20/30.

frankly frankie

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Re: GPS/Strava/Memorymap/Mapmyride height gain discrepancy
« Reply #17 on: 23 August, 2012, 01:48:06 pm »
The only problem* arises when there is a slight 'step' in the altitude graph when the barometer auto-calibrates - which it does every 20 minutes or so.  However IMO these small inaccuracies are the least-worst option.
Are you sure this is a problem for a typical ride? When I looked at this (admittedly a few years ago on the Edge 300), there was some adjustment at the beginning of the day, but nothing noticeable after that. And in total, the error introduced by barometric calibration was of order 10m, which is negligible on a ride of order 1000m.

I'd agree with that I'm not going to argue with jo but I think you can see the steps in the plot, caused by auto-calibration, when you know what you're looking for.  They are small but I suppose that in theory there is always the potential for a single bad calibration to occur (due to poor sky view at that time) which could result in two larger steps.  It is after all a rather Catch-22 way of doing things - using a barometer which is assumed to be 'better' than the GPS data but then using the GPS data to calibrate it! 

But the alternative (manual calibration) is never gonna work - you'd need to be more obsessive even than me the average yacf-er to keep that up for long, given the way our climate is going down the pan.  I agree in practice the auto-calibrated barometer is the least worst option, by far.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll