Author Topic: When the shoe's on the other foot.  (Read 11793 times)

When the shoe's on the other foot.
« on: 18 July, 2008, 10:49:10 am »
So, cycling across CLapahm Common at more than 5mph is a crime. It's a bylaw in tiny print on a sign somehwere obscure on the common that's never been enforced. Except some cyclist ran someone down and now they're going to enforce it.

The Police stopped every cyclist crossing the common last night to tell us and give us leaflets. They were there this morning as well.

They were very polite, they were reasonable and most of what they have to say is entirely correct.

However, I find myself mentally trying all sorts of stupid rationalisations for why its OK for me to ride as fast as I like when there are no pedestrians around, or kids cycling along and every time I shudder and wonder if I'm somehow channeling the ghost of Paul Smith....

Incidentally who was the acf'er riding in the opposite direction (South-North) last night who also got pulled up?

alan

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #1 on: 18 July, 2008, 12:08:02 pm »
Police officers flagging down cyclists.Mmmmm.
Was anyone in the near vicinity being knifed,mugged,raped or burgled I wonder?
Are cyclists to be the new soft-target in lieu of motorists?
Me,cynical?
Surely not :demon:

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #2 on: 18 July, 2008, 12:46:40 pm »
However, I find myself mentally trying all sorts of stupid rationalisations for why its OK for me to ride as fast as I like when there are no pedestrians around, or kids cycling along and every time I shudder and wonder if I'm somehow channeling the ghost of Paul Smith...

Scary isn't it.

As for the "Why don't you go and catch some real criminals" brigade, I'm surprised someone hasn't been along to blame it all on Thatcher. ;)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #3 on: 18 July, 2008, 12:50:04 pm »
Can you ask them if they are going to pay as much attention to speeding motorists?

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #4 on: 18 July, 2008, 12:52:51 pm »
Can you ask them if they are going to pay as much attention to speeding motorists?

If they were traffic officers I'm sure they'd say yes....
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #5 on: 18 July, 2008, 12:59:07 pm »
Can you ask them if they are going to pay as much attention to speeding motorists?

Do many cars drive across Clapham Common?
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #6 on: 18 July, 2008, 01:09:16 pm »
Is it even possible to cycle at 5mph on the flat without falling off?
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #7 on: 18 July, 2008, 02:20:03 pm »
So, cycling across CLapahm Common at more than 5mph is a crime. It's a bylaw in tiny print on a sign somehwere obscure on the common that's never been enforced. Except some cyclist ran someone down and now they're going to enforce it.

The Police stopped every cyclist crossing the common last night to tell us and give us leaflets. They were there this morning as well.

They were very polite, they were reasonable and most of what they have to say is entirely correct.
Surely the answer to all this is a bit of diplmacy on both sides.

The police have played their part - informing without arresting anyone.
Now if everyone slows down (to , say, 7-8 mph), there will be no more accidents for a while.

Worried pedestrians will be reassured, and then cyclists can gradually up their speed, WHILST AVOIDING ANY CONFLICT, until eventually we can forget this ever happened.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #8 on: 18 July, 2008, 03:22:14 pm »
Sounds eminently sensible.
Getting there...

Julian

  • samoture
Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #9 on: 18 July, 2008, 04:08:18 pm »
Can you ask them if they are going to pay as much attention to speeding motorists?

And if that doesn't get your bike looked at under a microscope for minor illegalities, can I recommend "You're a public servant and I pay your wages" as a good follow-up?  If you deliver it with the appropriate sneer you might even manage to get a ticket for an imaginary offence.

spindrift

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #10 on: 18 July, 2008, 04:29:47 pm »
Can you ask them if they are going to pay as much attention to speeding motorists?

And if that doesn't get your bike looked at under a microscope for minor illegalities, can I recommend "You're a public servant and I pay your wages" as a good follow-up?  If you deliver it with the appropriate sneer you might even manage to get a ticket for an imaginary offence.

Oh God, like that muppet on the BBC1 prog about trafpol, stopped for tinted windows and immediately got aggressive and verbal and got arrested for assault!

With the cops , best to remain polite and get rid as soon as poss.

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #11 on: 18 July, 2008, 07:35:06 pm »
With the cops , best to remain polite and get rid as soon as poss.

And NEVER mention the hunting knife you are carrying in your saddlebag. ;D

Maladict

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #12 on: 18 July, 2008, 07:37:07 pm »
Is it even possible to cycle at 5mph on the flat without falling off?

Yep.  1-2mph is fine IME.

ChrisO

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #13 on: 18 July, 2008, 07:55:55 pm »
These are not shared-use paths. These are separate cycle paths. On a common that is cut into pieces by roads.

While not disagreeing with the suggestion that arguing with the police is unlikely to get far, the suggestion that cyclists should ride through at 8km/h is equally pointless.

Do the motorists have to reduced speed to 15km/h on their roads through the Common ?

I don't see why cyclists are expected to accept the idea that they have no priority anywhere. Second-class citizens on the roads and subject to petty rules when we are segregated.

The other day I got sworn at by some old bloke because I hadn't dismounted to cross a road. A crossing (On Tooting Common) where you can ride a horse across, but not a bike. "You don't give a shit you cyclists" he said. No, I don't frankly. Just like I don't give a shit that for the next mile I have to dodge dozy pedestrians and meandering dogs along what is supposed to be a cycle path.

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #14 on: 18 July, 2008, 07:59:24 pm »
The rather daft thing, is that across the Common there are quite distinct footpaths and cyclepaths, they are a good 15-20 foot apart most of the way across.  Of course, plenty of pedestrians decide that it makes more sense to walk in a cycle path that has white cycle markings, blue signs etc than to use a footpath several feet away.  If I cycled on the footpath, I'd rightly be criticised, but if a pedestrian decides to wander all over the path with no regard to whether a cyclist may be coming across, then it's still my fault. :-\

I try to avoid conflicts across that path, but you have to try and deal with people who stretch dog leads across the path, people who throw a ball for their dog across the path as you pass, pairs of people pushing prams along it, oblivious to the rest of the world, cyclists who cycle as near to the middle of the path as they can, whilst wobbling alarmingly etc etc

I'd avoid using it, but it's too damned convenient, and the alternative would be to cycle around a very busy road, on a longer route, with some nasty right turns in it.  On the plus side, I rarely go across when there are many other people around, so conflicts are always going to be minimal for me.

Suggesting that cyclists shouldn't exceed 5mph does seem somewhat ridiculous though.  I'm also amazed that this is the biggest problem that they've got, since people regularly cycle on footpaths which aren't part of the cyclepath, to the extent that where the cyclepath crosses the footpath, you have to be very careful of other cyclists more than pedestrians.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #15 on: 18 July, 2008, 08:04:33 pm »
Do the motorists have to reduced speed to 15km/h on their roads through the Common ?

I regularly meet car drivers on Windmill Drive (which splits the smaller South bit from the North bit of the common) who are easily exceeding 30mph on a road which is barely wide enough for a car and bicycle (since it normally has cars parked for almost the entire length).

The other day I got sworn at by some old bloke because I hadn't dismounted to cross a road. A crossing (On Tooting Common) where you can ride a horse across, but not a bike. "You don't give a shit you cyclists" he said. No, I don't frankly. Just like I don't give a shit that for the next mile I have to dodge dozy pedestrians and meandering dogs along what is supposed to be a cycle path.

If you mean the crossing on Tooting Bec Road, adjacent to the cycle path across that common, then this is a combined Pegasus and Toucan crossing, and you can legally cycle across it (at least on the Toucan side, although I doubt the courts would have an issue with you using the Pegasus side, unless there were a mass of horses on it, and I have yet to see a horse rider using it).
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #16 on: 18 July, 2008, 09:30:27 pm »
I'd be inclined to print this page and hand it to the police officer in return.

My own view is that 18mph on a shared path is much too fast. 12mph is more realistic - after all, there is no law which says pedestrians should not walk on cycle paths, and lots do, in the same way that there is no law which prevents pedestrians crossing a road, or walking along it.
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Julian

  • samoture
Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #17 on: 18 July, 2008, 09:47:03 pm »
Oh, stop whining, everyone.  ;)

Pedestrians do jog / walk their dogs / fall over drunk / stagger blindly onto cycle paths, and yes, it is our fault if we hit one.  Just like when you're in a car, if a cyclist wobbles into your path or a child runs out from between two cars, it's your fault if you hit them.  If we're using a path with unsegregated pedestrians plugged into their iPods then we need to go slowly.  Sounds like some t*sser has decided common sense doesn't apply to them, and now the plod have put a numerical limit on 'slowly.'  Bad luck for us, and a pox on the t*sser.

But calling "unfair" with weedy excuses like "peds shouldn't be on the cycle path" or "5mph is too slow a limit" just has shades of Small Pith and his band of merry men.  Not an example we need to follow.

Is wot I think.

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #18 on: 18 July, 2008, 09:49:27 pm »
Oh! I didn't know there were roads going through the common too. Does the 5mph bylaw apply on the roads too?
I think I know what I'd do.
Big bunch, no more than 5mph. A loveley day cycling from one side of the common to the other, then back, then out, then back.... :demon:

Use the powerfull motoring lobby to your advantage, they'll soon get the hump and complain about the bylaw ;D

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #19 on: 18 July, 2008, 09:59:48 pm »
But calling "unfair" with weedy excuses like "peds shouldn't be on the cycle path" or "5mph is too slow a limit" just has shades of Small Pith and his band of merry men.  Not an example we need to follow.

Is wot I think.

I don't think it is fair, but that's how it is. Like many other things in life. I sometimes do 30mph on MK Redways. But other times, I am going very slow and will stop so that a child can run around and I won't hit them. This bylaw probably won't be enforced properly and the twits will still cycle dangerously. If you want to go fast use the road. If more cyclists did, the roads would be safer. You'll never get anywhere complaining about pedestrians because they can go almost anywhere, which is how it should be.
Just chill out and enjoy the ride 8)

Julian

  • samoture
Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #20 on: 18 July, 2008, 10:13:01 pm »
Yep, and if everybody rode like you, then we wouldn't have cycle speed restrictions on Clapham Common because there would be no need.

But there's always some flamin' idiot, no matter what form of transport they're on, so the authorities legislate for the lowest common denominator.  They have to. 

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #21 on: 18 July, 2008, 10:16:09 pm »
Yep, and if everybody rode like you, then we wouldn't have cycle speed restrictions on Clapham Common because there would be no need.

But there's always some flamin' idiot, no matter what form of transport they're on, so the authorities legislate for the lowest common denominator.  They have to. 

Hence speed limits on roads etc etc
And health and safety. I get people telling me what weight I can or can't lift.
I tend to judge by trying to lift it up. I either can, or can't.

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #22 on: 18 July, 2008, 11:24:31 pm »
Oh, stop whining, everyone.  ;)

+1
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #23 on: 18 July, 2008, 11:47:19 pm »
Anyway, you've got to go slowly on Clapham Common... otherwise you'll miss the other men who are cruising.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Maladict

Re: When the shoe's on the other foot.
« Reply #24 on: 18 July, 2008, 11:50:23 pm »
Remind me not to go jogging at above 5mph just in case some idiot decides to make that illegal too.