The time has come for Cyclists to rise up.

[nuttycyclist]

...
The sooner that gas guzzlers are priced off the road the better for everyone.

Indeed.  That will mean that my disabled father-in-law can be truly housebound and thus save himself from squandering his limited pension on items he cannot really afford.

Just think how great it'll be when all those who are unable to ride a bicycle, and who are unable to get to the end of their drive, let alone a nearby bus stop, are no longer clogging up the aisles of our shops.  After all, the shops will be bare of goods thanks to the hauliers no longer being able to afford the fuel.

[rogerzilla]

...
The sooner that gas guzzlers are priced off the road the better for everyone.

Indeed.  That will mean that my disabled father-in-law can be truly housebound and thus save himself from squandering his limited pension on items he cannot really afford.

Just think how great it'll be when all those who are unable to ride a bicycle, and who are unable to get to the end of their drive, let alone a nearby bus stop, are no longer clogging up the aisles of our shops.  After all, the shops will be bare of goods thanks to the hauliers no longer being able to afford the fuel.

Reg said "gas guzzlers".  Does your f-i-l drive a Jag?

VED is going down for smaller cars.

[Regulator]

...
The sooner that gas guzzlers are priced off the road the better for everyone.

Indeed.  That will mean that my disabled father-in-law can be truly housebound and thus save himself from squandering his limited pension on items he cannot really afford.

Just think how great it'll be when all those who are unable to ride a bicycle, and who are unable to get to the end of their drive, let alone a nearby bus stop, are no longer clogging up the aisles of our shops.  After all, the shops will be bare of goods thanks to the hauliers no longer being able to afford the fuel.

 

[nuttycyclist]

Sorry - cut too much out of the previous quote.

Reg also talked about reintroducing fuel duty escalator, and adding further tax to fuel to replace VED.   The implication being (as I read it) that all cars are "gas guzzlers"

...
Personally, I think that the Government should reintroduce the fuel duty escalator and, in addition, abolish VED and replace it with a further tax on fuel.

The sooner that gas guzzlers are priced off the road the better for everyone.

He currently drives a second hand 1.4 something or other we had to get to replace the previous Diesel he had that was way beyond its last legs.   However fuel bills are already crippling him (well, actually, it was foopball that crippled him years ago) so unless "something is done" he's already going to become more housebound than he already is.  If fuel goes up any further, especially if that escalator comes back or additional tax is added, it won't matter what he drives - as it won't be leaving the driveway and he won't be leaving the sofa.

And it's not just him.


Maybe we can challenge the fuel price on disability grounds?

[Regulator]

My comment is that motorists need to understand that driving has a cost and that they can reduce those costs by choosing fuel efficient vehciles and amending their driving habits..

Until motorists are forced to change their vehicle then most of them simply won't bother.  The best way to change habits is, it would seem, to hit people in the pocket.

Does your father-in-law receive mobility allowance?  If so, he will be eligible to get a Motability vehicle.  If he doesn't get mobility allowance, then he sounds (from what you have said) a prime candidate and should be encouraged to apply for it..

[nuttycyclist]

I shall check re Mobility Allowance (thanks Reg) but unfortunately I think you know what old people are like re handouts  



Bugger - I've just remembered I need to mend his kitchen tap.   (The reminder is that I know he'll be trying to "pay" me for my work - via chocolate/cake/ice cream etc.   He won't be happy for me to just go round there and fix it)

[Polar Bear]

Can your FiL claim Disability living allowance?

[mattc]

You would have to live an awful long way from friends and supermarkets for fuel tax to be your major expenditure. VED/MOT/Insurance/servicing/depreciation ...

[Polar Bear]

Disability Living Allowance

[nuttycyclist]

You would have to live an awful long way from friends and supermarkets for fuel tax to be your major expenditure. VED/MOT/Insurance/servicing/depreciation ...

But don't forget that fuel cost (not just the tax, the whole cost) hits people such as that EVERY time they go out.   Yes journeys can be combined, but if he needs to go to the shop at the end of the road (for example) then he's still got to fire up the car and drive there.  A cold engine, at low speeds through stop start junctions is the most fuel inefficient.


We've been here before re the fixed price per year of motoring, so no need to discuss that, but when you consider the fact that it's fired up every time he goes out of the front door then petrol prices - especially when they're on the unpredictable increase - are a major part of the motoring cost even if he never has to travel a long journey.

(Of course, if he wasn't such a stubborn old person he wouldn't need to go to the Council Offices each month to pay his Council Tax, or the Post office to pay his Gas Bill, etc.  He could easily set them up as Direct Debits... but he won't do that.  The same as he always has to set off to get there at 09:00 as that's the time you always go out and moan about the traffic volumes     But now I'm heading off topic )

[Adam]

Wow - when I was last in the States, just over 3 years ago, it was around $2.20 per gallon.  Makes you wonder how they keep going, having to pay those sorts of prices........

[Chris S]

Makes you wonder how they keep going, having to pay those sorts of prices........

Especially now, in Driving Season... 

[Greenbank]

Wow - when I was last in the States, just over 3 years ago, it was around $2.20 per gallon.  Makes you wonder how they keep going, having to pay those sorts of prices........

I remember paying $0.85 a gallon back in the US back in 2001, so almost exactly $1 for a UK sized gallon.

The duty on fuel in the US is much less, so they are much more sensitive to oil price fluctuations. Roughly 70% of the price we pay for petrol is duty. So if the oil price doubles we only see a 30% increase.

In the US it's about $0.47 per gallon. So if gas costs $2 a gallon and the oil price doubles, gas goes up to ((2-0.47)*2)+0.47 = $3.53 or up about 75%.

[MSeries]

Wow - when I was last in the States, just over 3 years ago, it was around $2.20 per gallon.  Makes you wonder how they keep going, having to pay those sorts of prices........

I remember paying $0.85 a gallon back in the US back in 2001, so almost exactly $1 for a UK sized gallon.

When I was cycling across the USA in 1990 people were moaning about the cost of gasolene.

[vince]

I remember it being about $1.10 a gallon in Virginia in the late 90's. I was laughing as I filled up. The attendant asked me how much we paid in the UK and nearly fell off his chair.

Interestingly, most firms have not (I think) adjusted their mileage rates. The Legal Services Commission still pays 45 pence per mile. This might have a gradual effect upon staff in making choices how to travel and when. Even with an old car that has no depreciation I am finding that I make a lot less on travel expenses. This is a good thing in that our County Court is a 60 mile round trip. I can do it by train, but it takes at least twice as long. If my car becomes uneconomic then I will start using the train, despite the dramatically increased travel time.

[nuttycyclist]

...Roughly 70% of the price we pay for petrol is duty. So if the oil price doubles we only see a 30% increase.
...

Is that really the case?    I thought it was pence per litre tax (hence the postponed 2p rise).   Therefore as the recent price hike from 98p to £1.14 has been purely price and not tax and so therefore the % of the price as tax has decreased dramatically.

[Maladict]

...Roughly 70% of the price we pay for petrol is duty. So if the oil price doubles we only see a 30% increase.
...

Is that really the case?    I thought it was pence per litre tax (hence the postponed 2p rise).   Therefore as the recent price hike from 98p to £1.14 has been purely price and not tax and so therefore the % of the price as tax has decreased dramatically.

Not quite - it's 50.35p of duty but then once you add on the petrol price you then add VAT on to the whole lot (yes including the duty part) - so more tax.  It actually works out at about 59% with petrol at 1.15p.  This means for every 10p increase in the price of petrol about 1.5p was tax.

[TimC]

My comment is that motorists need to understand that driving has a cost and that they can reduce those costs by choosing fuel efficient vehciles and amending their driving habits..

Until motorists are forced to change their vehicle then most of them simply won't bother.  The best way to change habits is, it would seem, to hit people in the pocket.

Reg, I doubt any motorist who pays for their own car/fuel/VED/insurance is in any doubt that driving has a cost!!! I suspect a high proportion of them wouldn't mind so much if they could see all the extra tax revenue going into major improvements for public transport, or cycle routes or whatever. With £60 billion tax revenue from vehicles and their owners, you'd think a bit more could be spared for making the infrastructure improvements that are needed to precipitate a change in transportation use. But no, that's a step too far for Government...

The fact is, unless radical changes are made to transport provision*, people will go on using oil-driven cars until their pips squeak because they have very little choice. And, again unless those radical changes are made, the car industry will provide the vehicles that avoid all that taxation and people will happily buy them - and the Government of the day will be without a substantial proportion of that £60 billion. Oh, they'll eventually think of a way to get it back, but my point is that the tax leverage is not being used intelligently and has not done, and will not do, what its proponents hope. The fact that we pay around twice the price for fuel - and for the car in the first place - that a US citizen does, and more than almost anyone else in the world, should be sufficient to persuade the doubters that, given no real choice, people will go on using cars.

*Those of you who only see what goes on in London may be surprised to learn that most of the rest of the country is very sparsely provided with rail or bus services, has never heard of cycle provision, and relies on its workers commuting relatively long distances because they can't afford to live where the work is.

[handcyclist]

The fact that we pay around twice the price for fuel - and for the car in the first place - that a US citizen does, and more than almost anyone else in the world, should be sufficient to persuade the doubters that, given no real choice, people will go on using cars.

But here you've rather scuppered your own argument. UK and European cars are so much more fuel efficient than US ones primarily because fuel is so much dearer here.

I'm afraid it's classic chicken and egg as regards transport infrastructure. We're at the beginning of the transition phase of our journey away from an oil-based economy, and it's gonna hurt to begin with.

An aside to Nutty, I think you've already seen the solution for you FiL. If you start adding up the costs of the unnecessary trips to the Council Offices etc, plus the fixed costs of car ownership, it quite likely adds up to more than the cost of essential taxis and delivery services.
More important may be that the car is a symbol of independence for him. That would require some care and effort to maintain post car.

[ian]

The fact is, unless radical changes are made to transport provision*

It's not just transport provision. It's planning in general.

The other week we were returning from a walk in the country to one of those provincial towns. This took us through a big, new identikit Barrett development on the edge of town. There were no apparent facilities: schools, shops, etc. Nothing but hundreds of homes. Too far for most people to walk into town, and not a particularly nice cycle down a A-road (that's only going to get busier).

The whole development was predicated on driving. It doesn't bode well for breaking our existing reliance on the automobile if we're still developing on this model.

[nuttycyclist]

...
An aside to Nutty, I think you've already seen the solution for you FiL. If you start adding up the costs of the unnecessary trips to the Council Offices etc, plus the fixed costs of car ownership, it quite likely adds up to more than the cost of essential taxis and delivery services.
More important may be that the car is a symbol of independence for him. That would require some care and effort to maintain post car.

Putting aside the fact the car has been purchased, the money isn't recoverable through selling it due to the used car market being what it is, so therefore the bulk of the fixed cost being catered for and the only real cost being that of fuel, thus meaning switching to taxis etc would be much more expensive, you are right.

Unfortunately the main point you are right on is the symbol of independance.  As with any old bugger he's not wanting to put anybody out, and so having to call for a taxi etc is not on the cards (yet).

..Bugger - I've just remembered I need to mend his kitchen tap.   (The reminder is that I know he'll be trying to "pay" me for my work - via chocolate/cake/ice cream etc.   He won't be happy for me to just go round there and fix it)

I was right.  I turned up to mow the lawn and mend the tap last night.  I was greeted at the door with "What size shoe are you?"
"9, why?"
"Oh that's a shame, I bought this pair of size 8 many years ago but have never worn them.  I wondered if they'd be of any use to you".

The silly old sod had hunted them out especially and put them by the front door ready

[Wowbagger]

We're at the beginning of the transition phase of our journey away from an oil-based economy, and it's gonna hurt to begin with.

Dead right. The problem is that we could see this coming 5 years ago but our stupidly optimistic politicians refused to countenance the problem let alone provide any solutions or means of cushioning the blow.

As a matter of interest, this website argues that the cost of motoring in Britain is no higher than in other W. European countries and that there is a £10bn shortfall in the amount of revenue raised and the total cost of our road transport system.

[Chris S]

Dead right. The problem is that we could see this coming 5 years ago but our stupidly optimistic politicians refused to countenance the problem let alone provide any solutions or means of cushioning the blow.

Unlike the Norwegian government who have been ferreting away a proportion of their North Sea oil revenues into a "What are we going to do when the oil runs out?" fund, which currently stands at a quite a few billion Krone.

[Wowbagger]

Dead right. The problem is that we could see this coming 5 years ago but our stupidly optimistic politicians refused to countenance the problem let alone provide any solutions or means of cushioning the blow.

Unlike the Norwegian government who have been ferreting away a proportion of their North Sea oil revenues into a "What are we going to do when the oil runs out?" fund, which currently stands at a quite a few billion Krone.

Or the Germans and Danish who have a pretty advanced programme of renewables and have overhauled lots of their housing stock so that it is much more fuel efficient.

Gordon Brown came up with this second idea last week at PMQs. It should have happened 10 years ago.

[harrumph]

...the shop at the end of the road...
...never has to travel a long journey...

Sounds like a candidate for a mobility scooter to me...

They are not even expensive - about £650, from my brief search.