Author Topic: Down Tube Shifters (Read 5028 times)

Polar Bear · « **Reply #25 on:** 04 May, 2012, 01:18:59 pm »

First time I tried barcons I found myself 'steering' to the side of the lever that I was operating. As I tend to use the right lever more than the left I was slightly alarmed that I was inadvertently steering myself into traffic. Abandoned the idea quickly and never went back.

Just saying like...

mattc · « **Reply #26 on:** 04 May, 2012, 01:21:10 pm »

Quote from: why1040 on 04 May, 2012, 12:46:53 pm

I generally forget which blinking way I'm meant to twist the one on the sit up and beg too, but it has a lovely little window with the gear number in it, so I can see easily.

I find my Grip-Shifts by far the least intuitive of all the systems I currently have (or have had). Dunno why!

But I do think a lot of this is related to switching from one setup to another - people (mostly) learn to use manual car greaboxes ok, but I'm sure if you learned in an Auto, the extra faff of a manual would seem absurd for negligible benefits.

In the words of Homer Simpson advising his famous son:
If something's hard at first, give up and find something easier

Kim · « **Reply #27 on:** 04 May, 2012, 03:45:57 pm »

Quote from: fboab on 04 May, 2012, 10:11:35 am

You chaps all learnt on dt shifters like I did- it's our age. What about Teh Kidz?

I'm probably enough of a kid in this context. I learned on mountain bikes with friction thumbies, and later progressed to the much cooler indexed version on my brother's bike when he wasn't watching.

As I see it, it's two different issues:

Lack of indexing (do DT shifters even come in indexed?) is about hearing and mechanical sympathy, divided by the number of gears involved. While the shifters on my recumbent have switchable indexing, I find that I can't hear well enough to trim 9-speed properly in most traffic conditions, sometimes resulting in unexpected jumps when I put the power on.

The other issue is reaching down to the shifter. I expect most people can learn to do this just fine, though if there's dyspraxia involved, that sets my alarm bell ringing. I don't know any dyspraxics who are particularly happy about riding one-handed, and changing gear while crouching down and riding one-handed is a lot more involved than indicating or scratching your nose. If shifting is faffy or hazardous, you'll change gear less frequently. Whether that's a problem is going to depend on your terrain and riding style - I wouldn't go near DT shifters with a barge pole, for the simple reason that I change down whenever I stop to reduce the stress on my knee when setting off.

There's the side issue of shifters showing you what gear you're in: Down-tubes, bar-ends and thumbies do in a nice analogue, physical way, but that may be less intuitive to a dyspraxic.

I like trigger shifters, bar-ends on appropriately shaped bars, and would probably be okay with STIs if it weren't for the ludicrous braking arrangement. I don't like grip shifters, but that's a personal preference thing - decent ones work well enough. Friction shifting is for front mechs and mechanical emergencies only.

Butterfly bars ftw

robgul · « **Reply #28 on:** 04 May, 2012, 03:56:10 pm »

Bar-ends in friction mode for me every time (and on every bike but one, that's a hybrid with indexed grip-shifters)

Total control by being able to "trim" the position and minimal issues with cable stretch etc - the ONLY downside is that on my collection of about 6 bikes with bar-ends they don't all work the same way - some are up for down, some are down for up.

Rob

TimC · « **Reply #29 on:** 04 May, 2012, 04:16:16 pm »

Quote from: mattc on 04 May, 2012, 12:31:17 pm

Quote from: TimC on 04 May, 2012, 10:57:51 am
If any of my kids were asked to ride a bike with non-indexed DT shifters, they'd be horrified! Similarly with bar-ends. I'd say that, these days, such shifters are a nostalgic enthusiast thing, and carry no advantage other than for the parent who sadistically wants their kids to suffer 'the way we had to'!

Bum. That was supposed to be a joke. Sorry, not having the best of days.

Biggsy · « **Reply #30 on:** 04 May, 2012, 04:26:57 pm »

Quote from: Kim on 04 May, 2012, 03:45:57 pm

(do DT shifters even come in indexed?)

Yes.

Jules · « **Reply #31 on:** 04 May, 2012, 04:37:45 pm »

My old Claud Butler tourer is 7 speed indexed on the back but friction on the front triple - do you get indexed front DT shifters?

Biggsy · « **Reply #32 on:** 04 May, 2012, 05:02:30 pm »

Quote from: Jules on 04 May, 2012, 04:37:45 pm

do you get indexed front DT shifters?

No.

Doosh · « **Reply #33 on:** 04 May, 2012, 05:49:37 pm »

Quote from: Biggsy on 04 May, 2012, 05:02:30 pm

Quote from: Jules on 04 May, 2012, 04:37:45 pm
do you get indexed front DT shifters?

No.

Which is heaven. Being able to trim the front mech is brilliant.

L CC · « **Reply #34 on:** 04 May, 2012, 07:01:52 pm »

Interesting.
There'll have to be some compromise, I think given a choice R would be having a MTB with slicks, or keeping Auntie Helen's Trice- he loves it!

However, this is a bike with R in mind. He'll grow out of it, we don't maintain bikes very well (so selling on afterwards is less likely than keeping it), ideally it will fit the tourer-shaped gap in my stable. Therefore for me:

no butterfly bars
no grip shift
plenty of braze-ons
guards and rack

I think given the general consensus we'll rule out the dt shifters. I think it'd be asking too much of him. I don't much like bar-ends, so we're looking for STIs or flat bars with triggers.

I find the comments about seeing which gear you're in interesting. I've spent quite a lot of time repeating 'it doesn't matter which gear you're in, if you want to pedal easier, change down, if you want to go faster, change up'.
I even do this on the tandem, I'll ask for easier or harder of Mr Smith.

(I quite miss dt shifters. Still, I can always go retro on my Dawes.)

Doosh · « **Reply #35 on:** 04 May, 2012, 07:13:19 pm »

You could always try Kelly Take Offs, these put the DT levers next to the hoods, then it's just simple forward/backward operation with the thumb or finger. But if as you say drops may not be suitable then it's probably best to stick with what he knows.

Luke · « **Reply #36 on:** 04 May, 2012, 07:48:46 pm »

I've two bikes built up with DT shifters, both 9 speed friction although they both can be indexed.

I don't think I'd ever change them for anything else, they are brilliant. They're so simple and just work no matter what, push forward to go up and pull back to go down. Move over one sprocket or the whole cassette in one move. I can even shift up whilst climbing out of the saddle by nudging the lever with my knee.

They might have a steeper learning curve for a beginner, but IMO they're worth it.

Kim · « **Reply #37 on:** 04 May, 2012, 09:27:59 pm »

Quote from: fboab on 04 May, 2012, 07:01:52 pm

I find the comments about seeing which gear you're in interesting. I've spent quite a lot of time repeating 'it doesn't matter which gear you're in, if you want to pedal easier, change down, if you want to go faster, change up'.

YMMV with this, I think. I find it essential on a 'bent where stopping in too a high gear means you can't get moving again safely, and distinctly handy off-road where there's less margin for error in anticipating the gear changes, so I get a bit nervous with systems that don't show me what gear I'm in.

Obviously on a road bike with hub gears or sturdy knees it all becomes a lot less important.

I think it comes down to what you're used to, but all things being equal, being able to see what gear you're in is sometimes handy and therefore desirable.

Feanor · « **Reply #38 on:** 04 May, 2012, 09:37:22 pm »

I like to know what gear I'm in.

The little needle indicators on the STI levers I've never used. For some reason, I just don't find them usefull.
In daylight, I glance down at the drive-train from time to time when I need to know.
In the dark, you can't see them anyway, and I end up with comedy chain-lines and irritatingly wrong gearing.

Kim · « **Reply #39 on:** 04 May, 2012, 09:42:06 pm »

Quote from: Feanor on 04 May, 2012, 09:37:22 pm

In daylight, I glance down at the drive-train from time to time when I need to know.

No good on 'bents or tandems, of course.

Quote

In the dark, you can't see them anyway, and I end up with comedy chain-lines and irritatingly wrong gearing.

I've added reflective tape to the indicators on my trigger shifters (yes, this involves pingfuckits) to mostly solve this problem. High contrast enough to see under city lighting, and unmissable with a head torch on the dimmest setting.

Biggsy · « **Reply #40 on:** 05 May, 2012, 09:25:35 am »

You need to know what gear you're in if you have a double or triple chainset in order to avoid the bad combinations.

I enjoyed using indexed down tube levers - and it wasn't because I hadn't mastered friction levers. I found them more pleasant.

I bet R would be fine with indexed DT levers if taking a hand off the bars to change gear was no problem. There's only a significant stretch down on a very large frame or if the bars are very high.

mattc · « **Reply #41 on:** 05 May, 2012, 02:02:58 pm »

What gear am i in?

With every system that doesn't use sequential shifting*, you can tell at a glance whether you're nearly in top or nearly in bottom gear. This deals with all the problems around cross-chaining and trying to start in top gear.

*e.g. DT levers.

PaulF · « **Reply #42 on:** 05 May, 2012, 02:17:08 pm »

I thought that I'd miss not knowing what gear I was in when I put the Alfine with Versa shifters on my bike but I don't. Key difference of course is that the Alfine allows shifting when stationary.

hubner · « **Reply #43 on:** 05 May, 2012, 03:35:43 pm »

I like DT non indexed levers coz they don't make any noise and the action is so smooth.

arabella · « **Reply #44 on:** 08 May, 2012, 02:36:56 pm »

Late, as ever.
Taller guy doesn't complain about his DT shifters, but then I don't think he changes gear very often (nor, indeed, ride a bike very often).
Before that he had click shify thingies on the islabike.
Before that grip shift. He's never done bar-ends though I have them.
Similarly younger guy, without DT shifters, though he may end up with barends.
Neither ever mentioned anything about gears, I believe trial and error sufficed for both.

I think the panel decided that DT shifters were less problematic for the sensible sized (ie NO more than 5'4") as they were never that far away anyway.

No 2 son welcome to come and try both, should Ipswich be reachable (isla bike however stuck in incommunicado other parent's garage, though also tryable should it turn up, after all we're similar size and I have ridden it (with a lady shaped saddle))

clarion · « **Reply #45 on:** 08 May, 2012, 02:52:07 pm »

Thinking about youngsters, TGL never had DT levers. He started with gripshift on his first hybrid IIRC, then got rapidfire triggers on the next. His tourer we changed to bar end levers, which he rather liked. The road bike was Sora STI, and his latest tourer/audax bike is STIs too.

Our Kid had STIs on his first road bike, but never got on with them. Mind you, he's happier with BMX, possibly because it means hs doesn't have to change gear. Come to think of it, TGL is happiest with fixed...

Butterfly · « **Reply #46 on:** 08 May, 2012, 03:23:37 pm »

As someone who is distinctly lacking in co-ordination, I can't remember ever having a major problem with DT shifters. I had one on my four speed racer in the 80s as a teenager and I have them on my Dawes Galaxy now. That isn't to say I've never had a wobble: I have, but then I've also had wobbles caused by sneezing, talking and scratching my nose, rarely major.

However, that said, I like my STI levers on the fast bikes and don't mind trigger shifters and twist grips either. I've used bar ends the least, but they are doable.

Making things as easy as possible is likely to encourage more riding which has got to be a good thing. We changed TGL's DT shifters to bar end ones because they were a barrier in his mind rather than in reality. The other issue is that the parts for older mechanisms become harder to find quite fast which is a pain when it comes to urgent repairs.

I have butterfly bars on my hybrid, but I'm not that fussed about them. My most comfortable bar set up is the flat bars with shaped grips and bar ends (Giant ones I think) on TGL's old bike, but I haven't done more than a 50 mile day with them, I don't think. That has trigger shifters.

If we could get it to you, you could borrow my Galaxy for him to have a go on to see how he got on with the DT shifters?

drossall · « **Reply #47 on:** 08 May, 2012, 07:09:09 pm »

No knowledge regarding the coordination issues. However, a couple of generations ago, ordinary people could ride bicycles for many tens of miles. Now that fewer people have bicycles, it takes a super-hero to do this.

A generation ago, ordinary people could ride with non-indexed shifters. Now that no-one has them, using them has suddenly become much harder.

The same is true of being out in the rain, and many other things that are ceasing to be part of common experience.

Or maybe, what is familiar also seems easy.

mcshroom · « **Reply #48 on:** 08 May, 2012, 08:10:57 pm »

I don't think anyone has said that it would be hard to use dt shifters. If I hadn't got a good deal on some STIs on my last buid my current bike would probably have them, but in the case of choosing the best setup from those available in a specific case, I'd say other options might be preferable.

Surely we shouldn't be using shifters of any sort anyway as the bike should be an ordinary if we are going back far enough. None of this safety bicycle rubbish making things easier.

mattc · « **Reply #49 on:** 09 May, 2012, 08:29:34 am »

Quote from: mcshroom on 08 May, 2012, 08:10:57 pm

I don't think anyone has said that it would be hard to use dt shifters.

They most certainly have!

p.s. good post Drossall.