Author Topic: New thread on CTC Forum  (Read 5257 times)

Karen Sutton

New thread on CTC Forum
« on: 13 October, 2008, 10:02:11 pm »
Now Elsewhere has gone I'm not sure where to put this but I'm sure the Movers will put it in a more appropriate place as they see fit.

The CTC Equality Champion has posted a new thread which is quite interesting and the CTC members here might want to contribute to as it's a subject which could be suggested on any forum I suppose. 


CTC Forum :: View topic - Forum for LGBT Members

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #1 on: 13 October, 2008, 10:09:04 pm »
Interesting.
Getting there...

Julian

  • samoture
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #2 on: 13 October, 2008, 10:28:21 pm »
I don't think I really get that.  Apart from for illustrating how many LGBTQ cyclists there are, what would be the point?

Fixedwheelnut

  • "If it ain't fixed it's broken"
    • My photos
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #3 on: 13 October, 2008, 10:32:29 pm »
 Barry is all right I know him, he is a West Kent member and organises some of our events as well as helping out on mine  :thumbsup:
 I am sure he will answer any questions.
"Don't stop pedalling"

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #4 on: 13 October, 2008, 10:32:56 pm »
Not sure, but there were a number of gay Cycling Clubs in the 80s - not sure what happened to any of them.  I think back then it was more to do with not having to put up with the macho heterosexist/homophobic crap that was normal for chaingangs back then.
Getting there...

Charlotte

  • Dissolute libertine
  • Here's to ol' D.H. Lawrence...
    • charlottebarnes.co.uk
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #5 on: 13 October, 2008, 10:34:58 pm »
Hum...
Commercial, Editorial and PR Photographer - www.charlottebarnes.co.uk

Julian

  • samoture
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #6 on: 13 October, 2008, 10:36:35 pm »
Not sure, but there were a number of gay Cycling Clubs in the 80s - not sure what happened to any of them.  I think back then it was more to do with not having to put up with the macho heterosexist/homophobic crap that was normal for chaingangs back then.

It's not considered particularly unusual for heterosexual male cyclists to wear pink lycra.  I'm not sure how heterosexist the cycling scene really is... this is not the cage boxing scene we're talking about...

FWN - I like Barry, he's a lovely bloke.  I just think this is a slightly mad idea.  :)

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #7 on: 13 October, 2008, 11:38:59 pm »
Just trying to work out what my sexuality has to do with riding a bike?

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #8 on: 13 October, 2008, 11:50:13 pm »
Just trying to work out what my sexuality has to do with riding a bike?
Found anything yet you might like to share with the group?  ;)

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #9 on: 14 October, 2008, 07:21:43 am »
I'm in two minds about this.  Organisations such as CTC can be somewhat off-putting to minority groups, such as LGBT or BME people - in effect, organisations can be 'institutionally homophobic' just as they can be institutionally racist .  Sometimes having an identifiable group within the organisation with which minorities can identify can assist in 'permeation' and bring about change over time.  On this basis, I can understand what Barry is looking to do.

On the other hand, I don't know whether I'd want to ride with a bunch of gay men.  My experience of such groups is that they tend to be dominated by skinny, bitchy, fashion-obsessed (they'd all be on fixies) weight weenies (both the bikes and them) who are about as welcoming as as Attila the Hun.  And if I want to to ride with a bunch of skinny, bitchy, fashion-obsessed, weight weenies I could join the Rapha CC...

As David says there is also the approach that sexuality has nothing to do with riding a bike.  After all, I'm sure that no one here has realised that I'm actually a shirtlifting, knobgobbler...  ;)
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Julian

  • samoture
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #10 on: 14 October, 2008, 07:32:39 am »
Most organisations are going to be institutionally heterocentric - 90% of the population or thereabouts identify as heterosexual.  If the cycling scene was institutionally homophobic that would be a totally different matter. 

I've certainly had more public abuse for being a cyclist than I ever have or expect to have for my Kinsey score.  Perhaps LGBTQ groups should have a cyclists subgroup rather than the other way round?  ;)

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #11 on: 14 October, 2008, 08:38:24 am »
Just trying to work out what my sexuality has to do with riding a bike?
Found anything yet you might like to share with the group?  ;)

Not yet.

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #12 on: 14 October, 2008, 10:05:34 am »
Not sure, but there were a number of gay Cycling Clubs in the 80s - not sure what happened to any of them.  I think back then it was more to do with not having to put up with the macho heterosexist/homophobic crap that was normal for chaingangs back then.

It's not considered particularly unusual for heterosexual male cyclists to wear pink lycra.  I'm not sure how heterosexist the cycling scene really is... this is not the cage boxing scene we're talking about...
...

Yes.  Hence my uncertainty.  It was certainly very very offputting for gay men, and women of any orientation back in the day.  The language was deeply unpleasant, although that was part of mainstream culture thenabouts.  The gay CCs were more about being able to go ride in a safe, non-judgmental atmosphere.

I forget you are so young - your wisdom and maturity belie chronology.
Getting there...

Julian

  • samoture
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #13 on: 14 October, 2008, 10:11:11 am »
:-*

Flattery will get you everywhere, Clarion.  ;)

Jacomus

  • My favourite gender neutral pronoun is comrade
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #14 on: 14 October, 2008, 01:59:31 pm »
Hmm...

IMLimitedE of LGBT socialising, it is fairly unfriendly towards any S's that may stroll in, and B's don't get treated that nicely either.

My impression from the thread is that it is being thought about, to highlight some of the concerns / give a voice to any non-straight members who get a raw deal - basically suffer from homophobia. A poster mentions a gay guy not being allowed out on a DA ride.

On the one hand, LGBT organisations are needed, to give a public or more powerful voice to a minority who can suffer discrimination. Equally though, an overly-militant approach from the group can breed resentment in the wider populace who would otherwise not care either way about what sexuality / race someone is.

"The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity." Amelia Earhart

Thor

  • Super-sonnicus idioticus
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #15 on: 14 October, 2008, 02:07:34 pm »
if I want to to ride with a bunch of skinny, bitchy, fashion-obsessed, weight weenies I could join the Rapha CC...

 ;D

good sig line?
It was a day like any other in Ireland, only it wasn't raining

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #16 on: 14 October, 2008, 02:21:08 pm »
Hmm...
A poster mentions a gay guy not being allowed out on a DA ride...


But does that really happen any more?  People do seem a lot more accepting of alternative sexualities than they used to be.  I know that there's still gay-bashing of the most repulsive nature still going on on a regular basis right across the country, but this sort of thing is probably long gone.

Isn't it?
Getting there...

Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #17 on: 14 October, 2008, 03:52:15 pm »
As a CTC Member (tho' I rarely do more than pay up!), I've read thro' the Thread there (and here) with some interest. My admittedly limited experience suggests to me that there is significant if largely unspoken "prejudice" against just about anyone who doesn't fit neatly within the "one of us " category. Right age/right colour/right sex/right cycling background - and yes right bike - all required.
I am (as far as I yet know) straight, white, old and male. Usually wrong bike tho' and definitely wrong politics. I don't often feel welcome.
For anyone who is more obviously not of the required (stereo)type I would think that participation in CTC rides etc would call for a lot of nerve.
"Gay bashing", no, but underlying prejudice, yes. But that is true of many folk, cyclists or not, especially of a certain age. Never forget that some of us grew up in times when "gay bashing " was  seen as a near-legitimate pastime (homosexuality was after all illegal) and racial prejudice was the norm ("no blacks and no irish" signs were legal and common). Long hair could get you a "f*^**"! puff " and a smack in the face from a copper...
Thank goodness times have changed, but many cling to the way they WERE brought up, inwardly at least. In USA there is clear evidence that there are many who tell Pollsters that "colour" will not influence their voting, but in the secrecy of the booth it will do. I can't believe that it is any different here.
Let right or wrong alone decide
God was never on your side.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #18 on: 14 October, 2008, 07:28:39 pm »
Wow. It's not often that such a short post kicks off so many lines of discussion. I think Barry was just tossing ideas up in the air and many replies were jumping to conclusions. But anyway ...

I like the idea of a sort of an Equality Champion that people can go to with "issues". I seem to remember my college having lots of people like this (I happened to know the "Catholic Rep" quite well ). If I accidentally offended someone, it would be nice to have someone around to mediate, I guess.

Extending this idea to a seperate forum seems reasonable - if folks don't want to use it, it will soon wither.
Separate group rides seem a bit odd to me, unless us boring conformist straights are also allowed along. (Most minority group rides tend to allow other CTC members along, with the unwritten assumption that you will show respect - I like this arrangement). However, an online forum might be a good place to discuss this exact question.

I must confess I had no idea CTC HAD an Equality Champion, but maybe it's in the literature somewhere, and I have never had an interest in knowing before now ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Julian

  • samoture
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #19 on: 14 October, 2008, 07:44:07 pm »
I love the idea of an Equality Champion - if anybody were excluded from a CTC ride or made to feel excluded on the basis of gender, race, sexual orientation etc, it's helpful for them to have someone who has a dedicated ear to bend.  But a separate forum or separate rides... I don't think it's necessary.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #20 on: 14 October, 2008, 08:10:12 pm »
I love the idea of an Equality Champion - if anybody were excluded from a CTC ride or made to feel excluded on the basis of gender, race, sexual orientation etc, it's helpful for them to have someone who has a dedicated ear to bend.  But a separate forum or separate rides... I don't think it's necessary.

It does seem paradoxical to have a series of rides exclusively for one section of the CTC in teh name of equality....

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Gandalf

  • Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #21 on: 14 October, 2008, 09:06:27 pm »
As a CTC Member (tho' I rarely do more than pay up!), I've read thro' the Thread there (and here) with some interest. My admittedly limited experience suggests to me that there is significant if largely unspoken "prejudice" against just about anyone who doesn't fit neatly within the "one of us " category. Right age/right colour/right sex/right cycling background - and yes right bike - all required.
I am (as far as I yet know) straight, white, old and male. Usually wrong bike tho' and definitely wrong politics. I don't often feel welcome.
For anyone who is more obviously not of the required (stereo)type I would think that participation in CTC rides etc would call for a lot of nerve.
"Gay bashing", no, but underlying prejudice, yes. But that is true of many folk, cyclists or not, especially of a certain age. Never forget that some of us grew up in times when "gay bashing " was  seen as a near-legitimate pastime (homosexuality was after all illegal) and racial prejudice was the norm ("no blacks and no irish" signs were legal and common). Long hair could get you a "f*^**"! puff " and a smack in the face from a copper...
Thank goodness times have changed, but many cling to the way they WERE brought up, inwardly at least. In USA there is clear evidence that there are many who tell Pollsters that "colour" will not influence their voting, but in the secrecy of the booth it will do. I can't believe that it is any different here.

I have only ever been on one CTC ride and on the basis of that experience I'd be a tad reluctant to go on another to be honest. 

Like you I'm straight, white old(ish) and male, no mudguards or panniers though  ;)

On the face of it I tick most if not all the right boxes.  Things were going swimmingly until the lunch stop, where I was subjected to  harsh cross examination about my dietary preferences.  When it emerged that I was vegan I was subsumed by a deluge of bigotry and unsolicited 'advice', which was nice.

I wasn't that bothered, I get it all the time and I'm more than capable of sticking up for myself, but I couldn't help thinking that this was a strange way to greet a newcomer.  I wouldn't mind but the main protagonist was the ride leader.

I should think that someone who was more obviously 'different' would have to be a person of extraordinary phlegm to turn up on a regular basis.

Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #22 on: 14 October, 2008, 09:25:24 pm »
"no mudguards or panniers though"

And you dared show your face? I'm surprised they even got as far as your DIET!! 
Let right or wrong alone decide
God was never on your side.

Julian

  • samoture
Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #23 on: 14 October, 2008, 09:36:08 pm »
I've been on a couple of CTC rides (other than the marvellous FNRttCs, which are slightly different).  I'm young, not straight, female, usually sporting a funny haircut, and yet I've never had so much as an unfriendly word*.  Maybe it is in fact all about the mudguards and panniers.  I had those.  :)




*Although at the CTC AGM, I did get to 'talk' to a chap who clearly thought that his cringeworthy stereotypes were a display of inclusiveness.  He did mean well though, despite being terribly inept, so I'm not counting him.  ::-)

border-rider

Re: New thread on CTC Forum
« Reply #24 on: 14 October, 2008, 09:44:04 pm »

For anyone who is more obviously not of the required (stereo)type I would think that participation in CTC rides etc would call for a lot of nerve.


CTC section runs are as diverse as people

Some are made up of so-right-on-it-could-be-1985 Islingtonesque lefty liberals, some of bluff, call-a-spade-a-f'in-shovel old skool men in flat caps. 

Just like any other organisation, really