Poll

Which pedal system would you recommend to a newbie road cyclist?

Shimano SPD
25 (45.5%)
Shimano SPD-SL
6 (10.9%)
Look Keo
5 (9.1%)
Time ATAC
3 (5.5%)
Speedplay
4 (7.3%)
Eggbeaters
0 (0%)
Toeclips!
1 (1.8%)
Flats!
11 (20%)
Other...
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 52

Author Topic: What pedals?  (Read 11273 times)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #75 on: 19 November, 2020, 08:31:25 pm »
Noone has actually given anything other than personal anecdata about what the advantages are of being clipped in, esp for normal riders.

Well, that was exactly the kind of information I was after when starting the thread after all.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #76 on: 19 November, 2020, 08:33:39 pm »
There was a thread last year where someone asked what sort of gels people like and the answer was fig rolls.
I seem to remember the answer was leggy blondes, though it could also have been busty brunettes.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #77 on: 19 November, 2020, 08:37:23 pm »
There was a thread last year where someone asked what sort of gels people like and the answer was fig rolls.
I seem to remember the answer was leggy blondes, though it could also have been busty brunettes.

#106 is the best gel for blondes and redheads, shirley?  Unless anyone wants to start a Congo Blue fluorescence flame-war?

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #78 on: 19 November, 2020, 08:40:06 pm »
There was a thread last year where someone asked what sort of gels people like and the answer was fig rolls.

Obviously not proper cyclists.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #79 on: 19 November, 2020, 08:42:39 pm »
There was a thread last year where someone asked what sort of gels people like and the answer was fig rolls.
I seem to remember the answer was leggy blondes, though it could also have been busty brunettes.

#106 is the best gel for blondes and redheads, shirley?  Unless anyone wants to start a Congo Blue fluorescence flame-war?
Took me a minute, but, ha and ha! Though why on earth is is called Congo blue? Are the waters of the Congo particularly blue?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #80 on: 19 November, 2020, 08:43:52 pm »
here are some hapless miserable slaves to fashion/orthodoxy, with their pointless toe clips, and the nerve to think they might be 'proper cyclists'.


Guys and Gels, all clearly delusional.

Nothing a few fig rolls wouldn't fix though...?




citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #81 on: 19 November, 2020, 08:49:01 pm »
#106 is the best gel for blondes and redheads, shirley?  Unless anyone wants to start a Congo Blue fluorescence flame-war?

This is something to do with stage lighting, isn’t it?

Too long since I’ve dabbled in that kind of thing to get the reference.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #82 on: 19 November, 2020, 08:50:30 pm »
here are some hapless miserable slaves to fashion/orthodoxy, with their pointless toe clips, and the nerve to think they might be 'proper cyclists'.


Guys and Gels, all clearly delusional.

Nothing a few fig rolls wouldn't fix though...?

Which one are you?

 :demon:

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #83 on: 19 November, 2020, 08:55:46 pm »
It's idle speculation, I think 99.999% of people who have tried foot retension will carry on using it. Obviously they will also ride flat pedals if that's what they have or if it's more convenient for a particular ride.

Of course, most people who cycle haven't tried foot retension and they are perfectly fine to use flat pedals.


Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #84 on: 19 November, 2020, 09:00:30 pm »
#106 is the best gel for blondes and redheads, shirley?  Unless anyone wants to start a Congo Blue fluorescence flame-war?

This is something to do with stage lighting, isn’t it?

Too long since I’ve dabbled in that kind of thing to get the reference.

Indeed, though blondes and redheads are more film (and still photography?) terminology.  Stage lighting techs would never willingly use shorthand terms with that few numbers in them.   ;D

Back in the heyday of rec.arts.theater.stagecraft, there was lively recurring debate over whether a tungsten source gelled with #181 would cause suitable pigments to fluoresce as they would when illuminated with UV.

(click to show/hide)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #85 on: 19 November, 2020, 09:07:46 pm »
here are some hapless miserable slaves to fashion/orthodoxy, with their pointless toe clips, and the nerve to think they might be 'proper cyclists'.


Guys and Gels, all clearly delusional.

Nothing a few fig rolls wouldn't fix though...?

Are they riding fixed?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #86 on: 19 November, 2020, 09:54:34 pm »

Are they riding fixed?


judging from the photo, I would say probably not; most of them have a SA (or similar IGH) visible and/or a third cable for a shifter going to the handlebars.  There was such a thing as a fixed gear SA IGH but it wasn't that common. The rider second from right might be riding fixed or singlespeed perhaps; there are two brakes fitted on that machine.

cheers

Davef

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #87 on: 19 November, 2020, 10:08:21 pm »

Are they riding fixed?


judging from the photo, I would say probably not; most of them have a SA (or similar IGH) visible and/or a third cable for a shifter going to the handlebars.  There was such a thing as a fixed gear SA IGH but it wasn't that common. The rider second from right might be riding fixed or singlespeed perhaps; there are two brakes fitted on that machine.

cheers
The one who looks most likely to be riding fixed doesn’t appear to have toe clips.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #88 on: 20 November, 2020, 01:40:49 am »

Are they riding fixed?


judging from the photo, I would say probably not; most of them have a SA (or similar IGH) visible and/or a third cable for a shifter going to the handlebars.  There was such a thing as a fixed gear SA IGH but it wasn't that common.

I believe Rogerzilla has/had one of those hubs, so perhaps he can tell us which type of pedal he prefers to use with it?

(The thing about "oh but you only produce power on the downstroke so you don't need clips" is a massive spherical cow fallacy.  If you're riding at constant speed in a straight flat line at average cadence and moderate effort, flats will do you fine.  Everyone knows that, and no adult with an IQ above 5 has ever believed they can double their power by pulling up on the pedals.  It's all the times you aren't merely pootling along the flat that they're useful

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #89 on: 20 November, 2020, 10:08:26 am »

Are they riding fixed?


judging from the photo, I would say probably not; most of them have a SA (or similar IGH) visible and/or a third cable for a shifter going to the handlebars.  There was such a thing as a fixed gear SA IGH but it wasn't that common.

I believe Rogerzilla has/had one of those hubs, so perhaps he can tell us which type of pedal he prefers to use with it?

(The thing about "oh but you only produce power on the downstroke so you don't need clips" is a massive spherical cow fallacy.  If you're riding at constant speed in a straight flat line at average cadence and moderate effort, flats will do you find.  Everyone knows that, and no adult with an IQ above 5 has ever beloved they can double their power by pulling up on the pedals.  It's all the times you aren't merely pootling along the flat that they're useful

You need to be clipped in for racing or for riding in a group - any situation where your foot coming off could be a problem or even dangerous.
You don't need it for riding fixed, or even for high cadence, but if you find it helfpul for those, or any other, situations that's great.

To answer the OPs question, I use speedplay for racing and flat pedals for everything else. 

Reason for speedplay is to get midfoot cleat positioning, which I (along with lots of others) gravitated towards after getting into ultraracing - as it fixes achilles / ankle / lower leg pain, various types of foot pain and is just more comfortable for many people after riding for long hours / multiple days. 

Reason for flat pedals is that speedplay are a pain to walk in so didn't work for commuting and aren't great for audax, ultra racing, offroad, etc. 

If Speedplay were easy to walk in I would use them all the time as being clipped in feels better and having your feet in the right place is one less thing to worry about.  However, if you are able to pedal in cricles reasonably fluidly and can avoid yanking your foot up too fast on the upstroke (it happens now and again on climbs), then flats work well enough, once you get (re-)used to them.

If I'd only ever ridden events up to PBP-legth then I would have stuck with what I used before which worked perfectly fine.  That was Look (Deltas - never bothered to change as they worked) for racing and SPD / flat pedals (double sided - would use both sides during long events) for everything else. 

I don't recommend what I use to anyone else as, like everyone else, I have arrived at it as a result of a journey, and I don't much care what anyone else uses, as they undoubtedly have their reasons.  But happy to answer specific questions from people who have issues. 

To conclude, I think that, unless your friend wants to ride really long distances, anything would do.  If he then has a problem, he might need to change something to address it, but can't anticipate that until it happens. 

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #90 on: 20 November, 2020, 10:20:11 am »

Only maybe 20 out of about 200 riders are involved in the sprint. Why do the other 180 use them?

I don't know. Noone has given any scientific evidence to say that pedal retention is necessary.

Korff (et al. Med Sci Sports Exerc 2007; 39:991-995)

Mornieux (et al. Int J Sports Med 2008; 29:817-822)

Both show that pulling up on the stroke reduces the efficiency of pedalling.

Quote
It isnt the sort of topic that seems to have attracted much in the way of research funding  ;)

You say that, but I've cited two papers above, so clearly there is research being done on this...

Quote
Thankyou. Get ready for a surprise visit!  :P The only time I've ridden in the Netherlands was from Naarden-Bussem to somewhere with a castle. No toeclips or SPDs

Excellent. I have some lovely 200km routes from Amsterdam that are just beautiful... Showing some of the best .NL has to offer...

There was a thread last year where someone asked what sort of gels people like and the answer was fig rolls.

I have a friend who does triathlon and he has all the fancy sports nutrition stuff. He asked me "What's your nutrition strategy for this 100km ride?" "Um, Breakfast, maybe some M&Ms" He was horrified. I'm sure if you're pumping out 300w for sustained efforts, and you're getting your ride food from a musette bag hung out for you to grab, gels are great, but I do find proper food works better for me...


Are they riding fixed?


judging from the photo, I would say probably not; most of them have a SA (or similar IGH) visible and/or a third cable for a shifter going to the handlebars.  There was such a thing as a fixed gear SA IGH but it wasn't that common. The rider second from right might be riding fixed or singlespeed perhaps; there are two brakes fitted on that machine.

cheers

Cool! I didn't know about the fixed gear SA IGH. That sounds like a recipe for mashed changes...


(The thing about "oh but you only produce power on the downstroke so you don't need clips" is a massive spherical cow fallacy.  If you're riding at constant speed in a straight flat line at average cadence and moderate effort, flats will do you find.  Everyone knows that, and no adult with an IQ above 5 has ever beloved they can double their power by pulling up on the pedals.  It's all the times you aren't merely pootling along the flat that they're useful

Erm, people are saying it's increasing their efficiency, people even saying I can't be pedalling efficiently as I am not clipped in. The papers I'm linking suggest this is not the case. Noone has provided anything other than their own personal anecdata to disprove it.

I stand by, that for your typical rider, who just wants to enjoy riding their bike and is not doing road racing, they are better off saving the money they would spend on clipless pedals, and matching shoes, and spend it on cake in stead.

What do you consider average cadence OOI?

Ah, it's good to have a YACF thread every now and then to reaffirm my status as the forum moron.

As you were.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #91 on: 20 November, 2020, 10:23:22 am »
Personal data - I rode SPDs on and off road for around 20 years, and then I got power pedals and had to use Look Keo style cleats. Road shoes are still odd to walk in, but I think they are probably stiffer for a given price/range point. I've not used SPD-SL, so have no idea how they compare to the Looks. I don't like riding any distance in flexible soled shoes and flats as it makes my feet hurt. As well as improved power transfer, I think that foot retention is useful on the road in certain circumstances (hopping stuff at the last minute being the prime non-fixed example), I suspect it's basically necessary in some off-road ones (eg CX). As far as I'm concerned, it's all about the right tool for the job.

There are a whole load of "conventions" about what roadies look like, ride, and wear - most are just fashion, and if you find something that works for you outside of them that's great. I don't think shoes will gatekeep you from being included in any club activity on road, certainly not in the club I'm part of (the only time I'm aware of anyone being stopped from riding with the group was when a student turned up with a secondhand bike with basically zero brakes!).

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #92 on: 20 November, 2020, 10:43:43 am »

Only maybe 20 out of about 200 riders are involved in the sprint. Why do the other 180 use them?

I don't know. Noone has given any scientific evidence to say that pedal retention is necessary.

Korff (et al. Med Sci Sports Exerc 2007; 39:991-995)

Mornieux (et al. Int J Sports Med 2008; 29:817-822)

Both show that pulling up on the stroke reduces the efficiency of pedalling.

Quote
It isnt the sort of topic that seems to have attracted much in the way of research funding  ;)

You say that, but I've cited two papers above, so clearly there is research being done on this...


8 guys on exercise bikes.  ::-) Hardly real world cycling, which they themselves acknowledge, saying longitudinalstudy needed, and :

"Second, we examined the effect of pedaling tech-
nique on mechanical effectiveness and gross efficiency
during steady-state cycling. Although our results suggest
that actively pulling on the pedal reduces gross efficiency
during steady-state cycling, there may be situations during
which an active pull is beneficial in terms of adding power."

Next time I ride to work on a static exercise bike I'll bear this study in mind.  ;)

rob

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #93 on: 20 November, 2020, 11:18:04 am »
I don't recommend what I use to anyone else as, like everyone else, I have arrived at it as a result of a journey, and I don't much care what anyone else uses, as they undoubtedly have their reasons.  But happy to answer specific questions from people who have issues. 

This.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #94 on: 20 November, 2020, 11:27:27 am »
I don't recommend what I use to anyone else as, like everyone else, I have arrived at it as a result of a journey, and I don't much care what anyone else uses, as they undoubtedly have their reasons.  But happy to answer specific questions from people who have issues. 

This.

+1

It's something I realised a while ago - recommendations should always "I recommend this because I like it, for this reason", not your guess at what someone else might like, or even what you think they need. Because however well you think you know the person, you will often be wrong. This goes for everything from pedals to books to restaurants.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #95 on: 20 November, 2020, 11:52:16 am »
Actually QG, it's you who keeps trying to reduce this argument down to efficiency.  Your original comment a was rather more far reaching. 

Pulling up is a myth...

https://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/The-Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto-2017.pdf

Carry on.

J
What most people are saying is that efficiency isn't the only game in town.  Absolute instantaneous force is important, and not only for sprint specialists (ref. Flatus). Keeping your feet on the pedals during 200 rpm intervals is important (ref. Brucey).  Keeping your feet attached round a hairpin in a tight group is important (ref. the few crits I've done). 

If you want to continue doing looks slow rides, feel free to use whatever you like.  The 20 mph 100k club ride that Flatus referenced though, that you said you had no interest in?  That's a standard training ride run by every club in the country, every weekend from a square in every town in the country.  It's normal, much more normal than riding 4000 km at <100W, with much higher participation.  So kindly quit your bid for the centre, you never had it.

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #96 on: 20 November, 2020, 12:29:19 pm »

...
I stand by, that for your typical rider, who just wants to enjoy riding their bike and is not doing road racing, they are better off saving the money they would spend on clipless pedals, and matching shoes, and spend it on cake in stead.
...

Is that your opinion or is there evidence/research/studies to support it.

The fact is the vast majority ("typical rider, who just wants to enjoy riding their bike and is not doing road racing") who have tried foot retension feel it's worthwhile and continue to use it.

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #97 on: 20 November, 2020, 12:32:11 pm »
 To throw more confusion into the mix.
I plan to take BOTH a set of flats and a set of SPD SL pedals on TCR next year.
The shimanos for the flatter rolling roads mainly in the first 2000 km prior to the Alps.
The flats for the steep stuff and gravelly sections.
I get on really well with my race shoe set up, until the road pitches up and getting on and off the bike comes into play.
Ive never found a set of MTB shoes and cleats that didn't give rise to issues with comfort and knee pain on long rides.
often lost.

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #98 on: 20 November, 2020, 01:06:40 pm »
I’ve used SPD’s for years on my every day and Audax bikes and they work for me. This Autumn purely out of a sense of curiosity I fitted some old Look Pedals I had acquired years ago to my Audax bike. At my level of performance I don’t think the pedal system will make a blind bit of difference to anything and for most of use, as said up thread, I think the main concern is(all other things being equal)  whether you have any competitive intent and whether you want to walk normally or like a duck when off the bike.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #99 on: 20 November, 2020, 02:21:26 pm »
I think the duck foot thing is overstated tbh.  I've toured with Look Keo and never really had a problem doing the amount of walking i wanted to do during a day's ride.  You wouldn't want to go for a hike in them, but trotting round a shop really isn't that hard.