Everything you said. These types of crossing are common everywhere round these parts, and you only really stop if there isn't enough space to go round the pedestrians. Stopping is likely to result in a collision from behind. The blind person in this video is acting weird. I don't think it's representative.
I think the video illustrates what blind people are scared of, even if the circumstances aren't entirely realistic. I suspect that if he'd proceeded to cross the cycleway, the cyclists would have either slowed/stopped or changed course to avoid him, until somebody fucks it up. (There was a high-profile incident that went round the disability twitterwebs recently where a cyclist collided with a blind person's cane on a pelican crossing.)
How do blind people cope with independent mobility in .nl? Do cyclists give way to them? I know Dutch version of pelican crossings are reasonably VI-friendly, with the clickers being a more informative version of the beeper+cone arrangement we have here, but what happens in less formal space?
I think the video illustrates what blind people are scared of, even if the circumstances aren't entirely realistic. I suspect that if he'd proceeded to cross the cycleway, the cyclists would have either slowed/stopped or changed course to avoid him, until somebody fucks it up. (There was a high-profile incident that went round the disability twitterwebs recently where a cyclist collided with a blind person's cane on a pelican crossing.)
Humans are shit at judging risk. People have disproportionate levels of fear of things that are rather unlikely. The fact that we can pull up the example of the one person who's cane was hit by a cyclist, shows how rare it is, It was newsworthy by it's rareness.
By placing the ball of his stick on the crossing, he is claiming priority of way.
That's how Zebra crossings are meant to work here, as soon as a ped is on the crossing (not on the pavement at it) then they have priority of way. The cyclists that went through are failing to Give way as legally required.
They're doing that to prove their point.
The blind person in this video is acting weird. I don't think it's representative.
On zebras v pelicans:
The norm for car drivers at zebras is that they stop, let the pedestrian cross then start driving as soon as they're clear of the bonnet. The norm for cyclists is similar but they might go in front of the pedestrian on the crossing too. They're less likely to go straight past a waiting pedestrian though.
The norm for car drivers at pelicans is that they drive straight past the waiting pedestrians then stop for the red light, by which time the pedestrians have mostly crossed already. The norm for cyclists is similar but not to stop for a red light at an obviously empty pelican.
My local observations, I reckon there's a significant amount of local and chronological variety.
I have to confess that when nikki otp was down here in December, I corrupted her by riding through a red but empty pelican crossing (one I'm familiar with) and getting her to follow me. :-[ Sorry, nikki! Leave these barbarous Bristol ways and return to balanced Brummy biking!
On zebras v pelicans:
The norm for car drivers at zebras is that they stop, let the pedestrian cross then start driving as soon as they're clear of the bonnet. The norm for cyclists is similar but they might go in front of the pedestrian on the crossing too. They're less likely to go straight past a waiting pedestrian though.
The norm for car drivers at pelicans is that they drive straight past the waiting pedestrians then stop for the red light, by which time the pedestrians have mostly crossed already. The norm for cyclists is similar but not to stop for a red light at an obviously empty pelican.
My local observations, I reckon there's a significant amount of local and chronological variety.
Indeed. But that way lies Brits not riding bikes, and blind people not leaving the house.
(It was significantly less newsworthy than "Blind person uses smartphone!", which goes to illustrate the general level of ignorance.)
I have to confess that when nikki otp was down here in December, I corrupted her by riding through a red but empty pelican crossing (one I'm familiar with) and getting her to follow me. :-[ Sorry, nikki! Leave these barbarous Bristol ways and return to balanced Brummy biking!
On one of the Zwolle rides, the big bunched start I blew through a red light on a junction with no traffic. One of the other riders yelled out from behind "You're not in Amsterdam now Julia!". One of the hardest things to learn when cycling in Amsterdam is when to stop at a red light, and when not to. It may seem logical, but I've stopped for a red light in the past, and had 5 riders pile into the back of me as they didn't expect it.
I am friends with a number of blind and sight impaired people, many who are very very scared of cyclists and have been if not seriously injured, injured enough to make life difficult by "idiots on bikes" crashing into them or worse their cane (which leaves them stranded if it's broken beyond usability).
The RNIB is challenging the kind of infra in this video because blind people find it so disabling and difficult. I'm interested that quixotic geek hasn't seen many blind folk around where she lives, I wonder if that means many blind folk don't feel safe enough in Amsterdam or various parts of NL to walk around the city streets because of cyclists or?.... The excuse "it works in NL" is only reasonable as a justification if it's working for blind people as well as cyclists (or people on bikes).
I would love to see a less staged video of that infra and see if cyclists stop and let a blind cane user pass or if they try and weasel round them (which is bad, don't do it, it scares blind folk who cannot hear you until very close and will startle!).
I think this illustrates the problem with exotic infra: De-facto rules for how to use it haven't developed and been absorbed by the population. Which isn't to say those rules don't marginalise some users (typically pedestrians). So the main problem with the Manchester lanes is that there are only a few of them, and people don't have an established model for how to behave around them. If they were on every major road, with the corresponding level of cyclist use, it would be much less ambiguous.
Which tends to illustrate that cyclists, pedestrians and motorists all have an equal instinct to bully and be inconsiderate. The difference is their mass (of numbers and of vehicles) and specific vulnerability.On zebras v pelicans:
The norm for car drivers at zebras is that they stop, let the pedestrian cross then start driving as soon as they're clear of the bonnet. The norm for cyclists is similar but they might go in front of the pedestrian on the crossing too. They're less likely to go straight past a waiting pedestrian though.
The norm for car drivers at pelicans is that they drive straight past the waiting pedestrians then stop for the red light, by which time the pedestrians have mostly crossed already. The norm for cyclists is similar but not to stop for a red light at an obviously empty pelican.
My local observations, I reckon there's a significant amount of local and chronological variety.
IIRC, the UK highway code for zebra crossings says that cyclists have to give pedestrians crossing due consideration, meaning that you can cross a zebra crossing when a pedestrian is crossing as long as you give them enough space...
In .NL most zebra crossings across fietspaden, pedestrians tend to give way to cyclists until they have a critical mass. Riding along Weteringschans where it crosses spiegelgracht at rush hour is a bit of an interesting experience...
I am friends with a number of blind and sight impaired people, many who are very very scared of cyclists and have been if not seriously injured, injured enough to make life difficult by "idiots on bikes" crashing into them or worse their cane (which leaves them stranded if it's broken beyond usability).
How many of them have also had issues with motorists and pedestrians?
The issue with the island floating thing is that it's one place with known lots of cyclists
[...]
but cyclists seem to cause the most distress on the whole cos they're unexpected until they've close-passed a blind person.
I'd like to see the experiment (if it can be called experiment) repeated with a blind person actually crossing the cycle path. Maybe disguise the camera as CCTV so people don't realise it's being filmed. Having say one cane user and one dog user cross (or attempt to cross) the same crossing at two-minute intervals should provide far more realistic interaction examples and channels for improvement than this staged set-up.
I'm not anti bikes, but we need to appreciate why blind people are scared and at least try to address the issues, even if it is "giving extra space and not close passing even if the cyclist thinks it's safe" and maybe that infra needs signage "Cyclists must give way at zebra" in WORDS X meters ahead...
It would be interesting though to see how many stopped, how soon, for how long and how near the others were willing to pass and whether in front or behind, as well as time of day effects. More so, how it all differed compared to a sighted person doing the same. And when you say "in order to achieve a collision"... :oI'd like to see the experiment (if it can be called experiment) repeated with a blind person actually crossing the cycle path. Maybe disguise the camera as CCTV so people don't realise it's being filmed. Having say one cane user and one dog user cross (or attempt to cross) the same crossing at two-minute intervals should provide far more realistic interaction examples and channels for improvement than this staged set-up.
I'm sure we can predict what that would give: Cyclists would stop or squeeze past in order to allow the blind person to cross, and you'd have to make an awful lot of attempts in order to achieve a collision.
I wonder if a guide dog might get more respect. Both on the basis that cyclists with experience of shared-use paths are used to dogs behaving unpredictably, and perhaps because the population in general have a better understanding of how a blind person uses a dog to mobilise than they do of canes.
Dogs are also bigger than canes and guide dogs are usually hivized, so more obviously attention grabbing.
One issue is that the dogs aren't easy to get. You often have to wait 1-3 years for a dog and they only last 7-8 years on average before needing replacing (often with a wait in between). Whereas you can buy a white cane for £25 and training is more easily available.
How versatile are guide dogs? I read somewhere that they learn their owner's individual common routes and just know by rote where to go, stop, etc. If so that suggests they're not much use when road and building layouts change, let alone in a new area. Whereas a white cane is presumably the same thing working in the same way wherever you are.
Canes don't work well with moving objects. Hence kerbs, tactile paving, etc, to indicate where the moving objects are going to be. I don't think there is a simple solution to this one, short of banning anything faster than walking pace, people rigorously obeying all road rules or some advanced technology[1] that can recognise and track an oncoming cyclist.
[1] First build your autonomous vehicle, then scale the sensors and processing down to something wearable?
To my untrained layman's eye, quite simply the bike lane is in the wrong place - which leads to the existence of this non-problem. Put the bike lane in the road and unfloat the bus stop.That makes the bike lane unusable whenever there's a bus stopped, or the bus unable to pull in if there's a cyclist passing. Fine if numbers of buses or bikes are negligible, but unworkable when both aren't.
I'm not anti bikes, but we need to appreciate why blind people are scared and at least try to address the issues, even if it is "giving extra space and not close passing even if the cyclist thinks it's safe" and maybe that infra needs signage "Cyclists must give way at zebra" in WORDS X meters ahead...
I hadn't realise the give way on zebras wasn't until you stepped on. As a sighted ped, I always wait and make eye contact with drivers until I'm sure they're going to stop and not just run into me. Many visually impaired folk can't do that.
Attention's the thing, isn't it? I'll be driving along and say "Ooh, Rohloff" to barakta who won't have even seen there was a cyclist. On the other hand, she can spot a hearing aid at 50 metres. I expect more of the population are tuned into dog-spotting (for one reason or another) than noticing blind people. Cynically I suspect the public's attitude to dogs is also more positive than to disabled people, or indeed cyclists.
Hi-vis red on a cane denotes deafblindness. I learned this stuff at primary school, but maybe that was unusual...
How versatile are guide dogs? I read somewhere that they learn their owner's individual common routes and just know by rote where to go, stop, etc. If so that suggests they're not much use when road and building layouts change, let alone in a new area. Whereas a white cane is presumably the same thing working in the same way wherever you are.
To my untrained layman's eye, quite simply the bike lane is in the wrong place - which leads to the existence of this non-problem. Put the bike lane in the road and unfloat the bus stop.
Hi-vis red on a cane denotes deafblindness. I learned this stuff at primary school, but maybe that was unusual...
I didn't know that! Do you know if it's international or just a UK thing?
I don't think it's representative.
One issue is that the dogs aren't easy to get. You often have to wait 1-3 years for a dog and they only last 7-8 years on average before needing replacing (often with a wait in between). Whereas you can buy a white cane for £25 and training is more easily available.