Author Topic: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov  (Read 5105 times)

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2015, 01:47:28 pm »
Huff n Puff - I see you put my feedback in inverted commas as I presume that helps you Huff n puff and shake your head  a little bit more.

As it happens, You presume wrongly, it was put inverted commas because I was quoting you, simple as that! It avoided using a, longer, descriptive sentence. TBH, you are mis-interpreting most of my 'light -hearted' emails but let's move on. I have t say that I am surprised at your response, my apologies for appearing to upset you, if that's what has happened. I also made the point that you instigating the discussion was a good thing! I mean no harm and thank you for your best wishes. I also salute your palmares, well done.

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2015, 01:50:53 pm »
I'm just wondering, if some have got to the stage of prioritising the points earned over the having a nice day out on your bike with people you know and a cup of tea and a slice of caik at the end aspect of push bike riding.

No need to wonder Auntie, I certainly prioritise points on some rides.....not always, but I certainly do it on occasions.

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2015, 02:21:48 pm »
the moment of brilliance in this thread is jsabine's point about fixed routes and secret controls, a fantastic idea that merits more discussion.

Far be it from me to turn down compliments (thank you in any case!) but I can't claim credit for doing anything except passing on bits of the discussion around the AUK boardroom table ...

As I say, Paul Stewart's proposed amendment on mandatory routes, although first applicable to DIY-by-GPS, was deliberately drafted to include the possibility of fixed-route calendar events, and we were explicitly thinking about hilly routes that would otherwise need an inordinate number of controls.

(I think the Tour of the Hills was the one that was actually mentioned by name, but this new route from RH definitely feels like it raises the same sort of issues.)


Because my experience of such routes is that they aren't suitable  for Audax.  Or at least how I like routes to be constructed. Others will take a different view and care less about the "flow" of the route.

There's certainly a view that routes zigzagging hither and thither don't flow too well, and that simply stringing together a bunch of hills isn't a great way to go about things. OTOH, where the climbs themselves - and the views, assuming you get decent weather - are worthwhile, with the zigs and the zags merely necessary links, maybe not having to find a control at every single apex can help make it flow more naturally.

Martin

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2015, 02:43:28 pm »
Because my experience of such routes is that they aren't suitable  for Audax.  Or at least how I like routes to be constructed. Others will take a different view and care less about the "flow" of the route.

It doesn't stop the Tour of the Hills being one of the most popular Audax rides in the SE; the route map looks like a drunk spider stepped in some purple paint!

I won't be doing this ride as I'm otherwise engaged that weekend, but even if I wasn't I'd probably not do it as

1. I did the very similar 150 a couple of weeks ago
2. The route is very similar to another AAA 200 in the area (which I also did a couple of weeks ago and has generally kinder hills or at least does them in the other direction)
3. I prefer the Upper Thames for a November calendar 200 (and that's got no AAA even though it's not flat)

the 8 infos would not bother me overly, a good chance to get one's breath (and legs) back

I wish RideHard all the best with this event though  :)

hillbilly

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2015, 02:55:12 pm »
TotH is a Populaire, so it follows it should be popular.

I toyed with putting on a 200 in the Surrey Hills.  I decide not to because it needed 13 controls.  I thought this was around 5 too many.  I'm looking forward to reading more about mandatory BR routes in time, as that might make it feasible.

Andy Corless

  • Doesn't take the p***, says it as it is!
Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2015, 03:39:18 pm »
Tell me to MMOB if you wish but FWIW, an extract from the Organiser's Handbook states, "Try to design your route so that it does not require too many controls. Convoluted routes which require excessive numbers of controls are inherently unsuited to Audax events. The table below gives a guide to how many controls to aim for (plus the start and finish):

200: Number of Full Controls 2 - 4. Total Number of Controls (All Types) 2 - 8.

If you want to claim AAA points then you may need additional information controls or checkpoints in addition to the numbers above to guarantee the amount of climbing. However if too many controls are required then a rethink is probably required
".

Andy Corless

Martin

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2015, 04:21:28 pm »
TotH is a Populaire, so it follows it should be popular.

I toyed with putting on a 200 in the Surrey Hills.  I decide not to because it needed 13 controls.  I thought this was around 5 too many.  I'm looking forward to reading more about mandatory BR routes in time, as that might make it feasible.

I don't understand mandatory calendar routes  ??? how are organisers to know those without Garmins have used the route? or are we talking gps only events?

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2015, 04:24:56 pm »
Trust ?  ;)

hillbilly

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2015, 04:27:52 pm »
Scenting.

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2015, 04:40:49 pm »
I don't understand mandatory calendar routes  ??? how are organisers to know those without Garmins have used the route? or are we talking gps only events?
[/quote]
See above, re the use of secret controls. By having secret controls the riders do not know where they will be checked, so they should stick to the route for fear of missing a control. No GPS needed.

Martin

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2015, 04:48:30 pm »
we did away with secret controls years ago! ( I think I last rode a UK event with one in 2006)

they only work if the last or nearly last info control is a secret control; if it's early on riders know the secret controller has been and gone and can happily ignore the others, as the secret controller will have to spend too long at each,

unless there is an army of wannabe secret controllers out there; if there is I've got a tea urn you can polish instead  ;)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2015, 04:54:57 pm »
Pretty much every other randonneuring country has mandatory routes. Few are obsessional about placing controls at locations that absolutely prevent shortcutting. It seems to work most of the time. Riders that extract the urine are refused homologation, occasionally for all future BRMs.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

hillbilly

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2015, 06:49:29 pm »
Pretty much every other randonneuring country has mandatory routes. Few are obsessional about placing controls at locations that absolutely prevent shortcutting. It seems to work most of the time. Riders that extract the urine are refused homologation, occasionally for all future BRMs.

*thinks out loud*
I'd suggest UK is slightly different due to AAA. 

Particularly relevant in the case of rides like the Chilterns Pub Crawl and TotH, because the number of info controls probably doesn't reflect only a need to prove "minimum distance" but an additional need to prove you hit the high notes.

I'd anticipate the AAA Man would need to be comfortable that mandatory routing gave him the brevidence he needs to be comfortable that honest sweat was toiled and gravity overcome.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2015, 07:00:10 pm »
So AAA folk are natural-born cheaters?

Perhaps some of these posts should be moved to another thread?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2015, 07:12:16 pm »
I don't see why the AAA man should come into it when you can ride The Cambrians by either going over the tops to get the metres or hugging the valleys to avoid them and still get the same AAA.

hillbilly

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2015, 07:33:27 pm »
Yes, some of these posts could do with moving.

No, AAA riders are not likely to cheat more or less than others.  The point I was making is that mandatory routing would also need someone other than AUK validations to be comfortable that the "proof" it offers is sufficient.  And if it isn't, then it needn't stop mandatory routing (but would need another form of "proof" to be provided). 

Yes, Cambrian can stick to valleys, but the reality is that it would significantly add to distance and for many riders would put them out of time.  So it is arguably "self policing".  In any case, and I may be wrong, but my experience has been that the Cambrian rides err on the side of understating AAA.  I've yet to do one that isn't noticeably over the listed AAA (admittedly this may simply reflect that I am spectacularly bad at route plotting or that I just take the most direct route).

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2015, 07:42:24 pm »
That's a good idea.

FWIW to get the 9.5AAA on the 6A you'll need to go over pretty much all the hills between controls and not trundle along the A40 between Fishguard and Monmouth.

hillbilly

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2015, 08:04:44 pm »
Given the A40 is around 15 miles different to the shortest route, and the bulk of this difference is due to the stretch between Llandeilo and Fishguard, I'd dare to hope this was taken into account by the organiser/AAA man when establishing the points to be awarded.  If not, then questions should be asked in Parliament.  Or something  ???

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2015, 08:09:18 pm »
But then it's best to go over the hills if you value your life.

hillbilly

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2015, 08:14:38 pm »
True. 

I remember mistakenly cycling on the A40 over that way, after taking a wrong turn near Carmarthen.  It was sphincter clenchingly horrible and I retraced to take the more scenic B road I had in mind (and found a road closure required going up into more hills, and then getting lost, but that's another story...)

I guess all these things go in the mix when setting "realistic" AAA.

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2015, 08:58:42 pm »
That evening this January after the Underriver rubble I fell in love with A roads when I turned right onto the A225 from the Pilgrims Way and found there were more then one way to Eynsford!

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2015, 09:26:59 pm »
we did away with secret controls years ago!

They're not, AFAIK, prohibited anywhere in The Roolz - but if you've got free routing, they're damn all use.

And you don't actually need a Secret Controller to put The Fear into riders, just a box on the brevet card. (Or two, if you want to be mean.)

Anyway, as LWaB said somewhere up there^^^, the practicalities for mandatory-route calendar events (including whether or not we can actually trust riders, or will instead require all applicants to show up seven days beforehand to have a GPS implant fitted) have yet to be determined. As ever, as long as the micturation remains unextracted, things will probably work out OK.

Phil W

Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2015, 09:50:47 pm »
I turned the Chilterns Cycleway into a 300km overnight ride last July. Minimum distance threw it out of the window as a DIY by GPS thanks to the nature of the roads. But it's great riding and my height ascended was 5,200m for that ride. Mandatory routing makes that kind of route available as a DIY by GPS.

I think secret controls / checkpoints are appropriate for a non competitive past time followed by the honest 98% * or so.

* Made up percentages, number of people who feel the need to shortcut if probably much smaller.

Till now Infos  it is, but it'll be through some great countryside on this ride.


Re: Steam Ride: Chilterns Pub Crawl AAA3 200k - Sun 1st Nov
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2015, 09:42:28 am »
...secret controls .....................they only work if the last or nearly last info control is a secret control; if it's early on riders know the secret controller has been and gone and can happily ignore the others, as the secret controller will have to spend too long at each,

Yes, I can see that, and I doubt it can be totally overcome. However, I was envisaging a scenario where one secret control could, perhaps, replace several info controls in, say, one segment, leaving a combination of other controls elsewhere (infos, receipts, stamps and secrets) . Also, as has been mooted above, the idea of excess several secret control boxes on the brevet card, so that the rider doesn't actually know how many there are, going some way to resolving your concerns had occurred to me.

As for manning all of this, let's say the ride potentially had 3 manned controls and 8 infos. It is likely that the 3 manned locations involve retail establishments so they might be turned into 'receipt' controls freeing up 3 controllers who then go out and man 3 secret controls to replace some, or all, of the info controls. The outcome, if this were feasible, would be a drop from 11 to 6 controls. It may not suit every event, but probably merits some consideration.