Author Topic: Are LCC in LaLa Land?  (Read 24907 times)


clarion

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Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #1 on: 21 October, 2013, 11:12:07 pm »
I really don't like this Go Dutch direction.  LCC are getting barmy.
Getting there...

spindrift

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #2 on: 21 October, 2013, 11:24:53 pm »
I get fed up with this in-fighting and "splitters" arguments, cyclists should have a single unifying outfit working together.

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #3 on: 21 October, 2013, 11:45:06 pm »
I get fed up with this in-fighting and "splitters" arguments, cyclists should have a single unifying outfit working together.

So what do we do when the self appointed cycle advocates talk bollocks?

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #4 on: 22 October, 2013, 12:08:34 am »
Is it bollocks? I genuinely don't know. I ride regularly in London; I'm happy on the roads, I have no problem claiming my space, I have no problem preventing drivers trying to intimidate me and tolerating those who do. I find the vast majority of cycle provision inadequate, unhelpful, and sometimes borderline unsafe. I don't like the idea of 'Go Dutch' one little bit if it will lead to the imposition of similarly inappropriate 'provision.'

But, I'm reasonably fit, reasonably fast, reasonably experienced - and a bloke, if that makes any difference. I know many people who say that they are unhappy at the idea of riding in London, and I think some of these could be persuaded to try if there was a reasonable guarantee of being able to make a journey without having to deal with intimidatory motor traffic.

I do wonder if part of my unhappiness at the idea of segregated provision is macho bullshit about refusing to be banished from 'my' roads - the bits of Saturday's (leisure) ride that were on lightly trafficed lanes were much more pleasant than the bits that were on the Harlow bypass or the main road back down to Epping or dealing with the joy that is Leytonstone High Street.

Gattopardo

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Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #5 on: 22 October, 2013, 01:19:34 am »
So the issue is one of educating others.

More riders on the road, more the message is re inforced.

vorsprung

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Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #6 on: 22 October, 2013, 08:25:30 am »
The problem with separation from traffic for cyclists in the UK is that historically this has been implemented by local authorities with input from Sustrans.  In other words the the blind leading the blind. 

Any discussion of separated facilities in the UK must take this into account.  It's what we might call the "UK model" as opposed to the "Dutch model".  So, when a UK group says in it favour of separation in the UK they must acknowledge this baggage.

TimC

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Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #7 on: 22 October, 2013, 08:54:46 am »
Disclaimer: the only time I ride in London is to and from leisure rides. I do drive there occasionally. I dont commute by bike, though I do use a bike for shopping locally. No matter how 'Dutch' Btitain goes, it's unlikely to result in segregated provision where I live in my cycling lifetime.

All that said, the LCC's campaign to segregate cycle commuters from motor traffic on busy roads seems sensible to me. The alternative would seem to be a deliberately aggressive battle between cyclists and drivers to occupy the same piece of space. That may be attractive to some of our number, but will actively discourage many more. A lot of people I talk to about cycle commuting (my wife is a year-round cycle commuter) cite fear of traffic as their biggest reason for not doing it. It's not about making it philosophically acceptable for the confident by enabling one to ride in traffic with a metaphoric middle digit raised to car drivers, it's surely about making it a no-brainer for even the least confident to get on their bike? That tipping point wasn't reached in the Netherlands until segregation arrived.

Segregation isn't about relegating cyclists to the margins. It's about claiming more (and more) roadspace for safe cycling in an environment that isn't naturally safe. Sure, i can happily ride my MAMIL steed in the middle of five lanes of traffic, sneering my superiority at all and sundry, but doing so - even in company with other like-minded knights of the bike - is not going to do much to persuade the timid to follow my example. And the number of cyclist casualties in London is not reducing as motorised traffic retreats to its rightful second or lower place in the heirarchy of traffic....

I think the reactionary stance of those of you who oppose segregation is unfortunate. I don't for one minute accept that segregation in the busy parts of London will reduce any cyclist's right to be on the open road elsewhere; though those motons who think we should all be on the pavement will still be there, of course.

I know my view won't be popular here, but hey ho!

ian

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #8 on: 22 October, 2013, 08:56:01 am »
As it stands, many cyclists and maybe cyclists are put off or simply don't want to mix with often aggressive traffic. It's super that regular, confident, usually male cyclists aren't put off. But hey, they're road warriors, and the Elephant & Castle is just a Ben Hur moment and CS7 a place so show those new cyclists what they're not made of.

The binary argument is a bit tedious, it's either complete segregation or not, and somehow by even saying that word we're somehow giving in (whoever that we is). Plus, we all know that cycling facilities are sub-par, so obviously we shouldn't ever bother. In fact, when you see one, don't complain, don't try to get fixed. Just don't bother. It's easier, after all, to complain about failure than make a success.

Maybe a sensible mix of lanes where appropriate, networks of quiet streets, measures such as reduced permeability, and strict enforcements of driving laws would be appropriate. But, hey, that's a bit of a wuss out. I'm going to ride around Hyde Park Corner and swear at lorries for a bit.

jane

  • Mad pie-hating female
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #9 on: 22 October, 2013, 09:04:55 am »
No the LCC is not in Lalaland (wherever that may be).  They are just trying to find the best way to get as many people cycling as possible, having discovered that preaching the assertive cycling gospel doesn't seem to be producing the critical mass we actually need to get our children, friends who want to cycle but are fearful, (sometimes)slower elders and less confident partners cycling regularly on our city streets. Speaking as someone who was at the AGM and is a member of the Policy Forum, we have been over and over these arguments again and again. Most people in the organisation now accept that we need to embrace the idea of dedicated space for the sake of these people, not ourselves.  I changed my view myself. (Having a child helped that process, as it forced me to see cycling in London from someone else's point of view). I don't particularly need a segregated lane down the Old Kent Rd for myself.  I have been riding down it pretty regularly for over forty years. However, I worried sick every time my daughter used that route.  And it's this kind of road we are talking about, let's be clear, because we are also calling for all boroughs to adopt a default 20 mph.  Which would leave only a few roads carrying the volumes of traffic at higher speeds where such infrastructure would be necessary.  Not much more than the TLRN.  If these segregated or semi segregated lanes are properly designed, with ample space and priority for cyclists at side roads, then I really can't see the objection.  Forget about some of the sub standard examples already in existence.  That's not what is being proposed.

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #10 on: 22 October, 2013, 09:06:00 am »
I equally dislike a concept that says that there are roads cyclists shouldn't be on, but I also recognise that my cycling history means I am confident enough to claim my roadspace and prepared to fight for it if neccessary. I am aware that this is not the case for all potential cyclists and that less confident (macho, fearless, stupid, take your pick) cyclists are intimidated from our roads.

Cycle provision needs to address the needs of all cyclists, from those who can ride 20mph in the bus lanes and happily co-exist with the traffic to the mum trying to shepherd 3 kids to school who needs eyes in the back of her head just to see what the children are doing let alone the motorised traffic.

20mph zones and filtered permiability is great for this, it closes rat runs and takes through traffic off residential streets making local roads much more appropriate for school runs etc. But when you then reach the main thoroughfares the provission needs to accomodate all cyclists else we are going to get the confident cyclists wanting to maintain 15-20mph on the cycleway cursing the wobbly children and the mothers cursing the racing snakes for putting their little darlings at risk.

The thing about Go Dutch is that most journeys are undertaken in civies, at a genteel pace and over short distances so that the time difference between riding at 8-10mph and 15-20mph is not great. Due to the UK history of cycling provision the current cyclists are a hard core, often riding further and possibly faster than the dutch. The new facilities are NOT being intended to meet the desires of this current committed cyclists but to meet the needs of those who aspire to not use the car but are petrified at the thought of Londons roads and aware that there is a discontinuity of provision in the existing off road cycle network.

If there is a modal shift to cycling then we early adopters will be a minority of the cyclists and mayhave to adjust our manner of cycling to fit in with the crowd or risk being percieved as Mr Toad on a bike.

jane

  • Mad pie-hating female
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #11 on: 22 October, 2013, 09:57:33 am »
If there is a modal shift to cycling then we early adopters will be a minority of the cyclists and mayhave to adjust our manner of cycling to fit in with the crowd or risk being percieved as Mr Toad on a bike.
I think that might be true, and, personally, it doesn't worry me too much.  Despite being one of those "early adopters".  And to be honest some of those faster, fitter people seem perfectly happy to whizz along completely segregated shared paths at the moment (like the Surrey Canal Path) when there are at least two unsegregated faster routes available into town.  Very odd.  So, I think those of us who are perfectly happy and, let's be honest, actually enjoy the buzz of traffic jamming over Elephant and Castle (sadly, less exhilarating since it was, firstly, light controlled and secondly, tamed by removing one of its wonderful whirligigs) or hurtling down Archway will still be able to do so.  Precisely because we are a minority. 

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #12 on: 22 October, 2013, 10:21:14 am »
And therefore we should not be seeking the perfect cycling provision for us, as that way is the reinforcement that cycling is for this hardcore minority. We need to seek to design the provision to meet the needs of those for whom cycling is an aspiration but for whom it is just too frightening at the moment.

In this way 20mph zones, filtered permiability and roadside paths with appropriate priority at side roads are big steps forward particularly if we can get them to be consistently applied so that you can be confident of quiet local roads leading to either your destination or a good quality path to link you to the quiet roads at your destination.

Personally for me the appropriate cycle provision would be a pothole and Manhole cover free road, I am confident to mix with traffic and want to be predictable to the traffic swerving to avoid poor road surfaces is not predictable. However I recognise that has no impact on reducing the barriers to others cycling it only makes my cycling more comfortable.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #13 on: 22 October, 2013, 11:03:58 am »
Having read the report, it seems LCC are not asking for segregation everywhere. In fact, their main thrust seems to be reducing speeds and volumes to levels which are acceptable to the timid and wobbly. You might say it's the motor traffic which they're asking to go Dutch, not the cyclists. If that were done on most streets, leaving major roads as a refuge for fast and busy cars, buses and lorries, with well-built segregation for cyclists, keeping priority over side roads and traffic turning into them, and being wide enough for wheeled hordes, then it might be good for everyone. The really difficult things would be to make lower speeds the norm and ensure decent quality lanes/tracks/paths on the main roads. And no bollards and gates, please.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Charlotte

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Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #14 on: 22 October, 2013, 11:16:14 am »
Quote from: LCC
If a road has a speed limit higher than 20mph, or if it carries more than 2000 cars (or rather fewer lorries, buses or coaches) per day, then physical separation from motor traffic is required.

Not only is this bollocks, it's never going to happen.
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Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #15 on: 22 October, 2013, 11:28:30 am »
I ride regularly in London; I'm happy on the roads, I have no problem claiming my space, I have no problem preventing drivers trying to intimidate me ... But, I'm reasonably fit, reasonably fast, reasonably experienced - and a bloke

Right — we're the kind of riders who would cycle whatever the conditions. Maybe there's 10% of the population who are similar to us. But what about the other 90%? I was talking to my mother last night and she said that she loved cycling when she was young and would like to do it again but she simply doesn't dare — there's nowhere near her that she feels is safe enough. She's willing to cycle only when there's complete separation from motor vehicles.

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #16 on: 22 October, 2013, 11:45:18 am »
Quote from: LCC
If a road has a speed limit higher than 20mph, or if it carries more than 2000 cars (or rather fewer lorries, buses or coaches) per day, then physical separation from motor traffic is required.

Not only is this bollocks, it's never going to happen.

Possibly but I believe it is the correct aspiration to have and campaign for.

The biggest issue is going to be what the acceptible compromise will be. Failure to achieve the desired provision to facilitate the new cyclists required for a modal shift while also having that provision ignored by the existing cyclists will be percieved as wasting money by all of the cyclists, motorists and the highways officers.

Biggsy

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Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #17 on: 22 October, 2013, 12:15:01 pm »
The LCC is a religious organisation - so desperately obsessed with increasing the numbers of cyclists that they don't really care enough about the POTENTIAL QUALITY of cycling, because all that really matters to them is that you will go to heaven if you ride a bike.

We already have an excellent physical infrastructure for cycling: roads.  This will not be bettered in terms of widths (and probably levelness of surface as well).  Despite what people answer in surveys, people overcome their fears when given the right help from friends/relatives/professionals.  There would be a lot more cyclists if every person campaigning for segregation personally helped someone they know to ride on the roads.  I did it with my old mum.  It is patronising for experienced road cyclists to campaign for segregation on behalf of others, as if newcomers have inferior potential ability.

In any case, cycling in central London has already increased a great deal despite being mostly unsegregated, and this is already spreading to outer London.  Cycling encourages cycling.

The LCC is no better than drivers who shout "get off the road".  They are defeatists.  They need to remember that roads were not built for cars.  If you want to Go Dutch, please move to the Netherlands.  Don't fuck up our London.  The more separate cycle ways there are alongside roads, the worse road cycling will get, and the more likely it is that we will be told to get off them.
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Charlotte

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Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #18 on: 22 October, 2013, 12:17:27 pm »
*applause*
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marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #19 on: 22 October, 2013, 12:23:37 pm »
I nominate Biggsy for mayor of London please.
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #20 on: 22 October, 2013, 12:26:51 pm »
Quote from: LCC
If a road has a speed limit higher than 20mph, or if it carries more than 2000 cars (or rather fewer lorries, buses or coaches) per day, then physical separation from motor traffic is required.

Not only is this bollocks, it's never going to happen.

Possibly but I believe it is the correct aspiration to have and campaign for.


Why?   
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #21 on: 22 October, 2013, 12:35:55 pm »
Each day I ride the piece of London where they are building the first "Go Dutch" cycle facility, in Stratford High Street. Each day I see it, I see disaster waiting to happen, poor design and built in conflict, I see less space and acceptance for me riding the main carriageway. Whatever happens on the cycle side, the road side - never very good - has been made substantially more dangerous for those wanting to ride over the flyover (having said that, I think there will be a safer option shaken out when the roadworks go). Maybe if they were to implement a camera controlled 20 zone it would be acceptable.

But then, I look forward in my mind's eye one year, two, three, and I can see people using that facility, many people who would otherwise not be on bikes. And I realise that I will have to ride with them, slowly, whatever. And if only because there are more people cycling, my life will be safer. I have a right to use the road, but I don't have a right to use the road in whatever way I choose, much as drivers don't have the right to drive at 80 mph through central London.

So, while I'm not sure I agree totally with the LCC, I think their aim is right.

Biggsy says they don't care enough about the potential quality and I have to say I agree with him, but I think there isn't any room for anything more than the simple message: let's get more people on bikes. Everything else will sort itself out. If all cars disappeared tomorrow and commuters took to bikes en masse, we'd all have to be riding slowly.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #22 on: 22 October, 2013, 12:41:09 pm »
Taking a look at other articles on the As easy as riding a bike blog, what strikes me is the author's (authors'?) obsession with the Netherlands. This is something that seems to happen quite a lot - people see that there are more cyclists (and more cycling) in Amsterdam, Copenhagen or Timbuktu and think that by importing one or two ideas and practices from there to here, we can create the same conditions with the same result. But it doesn't usually work that way - it's worth looking for ideas and gadgets elsewhere but they have to be adapted to fit the environment here, which means not just hills and the sporting emphasis of bike shops, but the attitudes of government, local authority, media and bloke next door. Which in turn tends to mean those lovely wide segregated and prioritised paths turn out in practice to be narrow, litter strewn and impractical. I'm not really sure how to overcome this, but I think that the taming of motor traffic mentioned in the link upthread is a good start (lower speeds, closing rat runs, reducing priorities, etc)
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #23 on: 22 October, 2013, 12:43:34 pm »
Cudzo, I think the obsession might come from the realisation that it wasn't always like that in Amsterdam, either.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #24 on: 22 October, 2013, 12:53:31 pm »
Could be, but I see people talking about how these places are now, not how they got there. In any case, the same applies - the journey will be different and probably need different tools even if the departure and (hoped for) destination are the same. In the case of the departure point, it can never be the same even if we Dutch politicians, flatness, etc, because the other thing is time - starting 40 years later means you not only have to make up those 40 years, you have to make up the extra changes that have happened in that time.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.