This Olympic torch thing

[Biggsy]

I didn't say the private companies aren't profiting (and what's wrong with profit?).  That's not incompatible with subsidisation.

[mattc]

You can reduce the cost to the public AND reduce the commercialisation.

[citoyen]

I didn't say the private companies aren't profiting (and what's wrong with profit?).  That's not incompatible with subsidisation.

In theory, perhaps. But that's not the way these games are being run.

d.

[Biggsy]

The companies are paying to advertise, aren't they?  I hope they're not getting paid to advertise!

[barakta]

tell whomever to "fuck off" about moving my car with a "Bring it! If you DARE!".

Typical self-centred motorist response. Tch.

d.

Well if it's on my driveway I don't see what the issue re Olympic route is unless they object to the logo of my car's manufacturer (I own neither a car, a driveway or even a full driving licence mind).  It's the principle and the sheer fucking cheek of it which pisses me off.  A driveway is a person's property and no one else's business unless they're causing harm - which parking their own car on it doesn't count as harm.

S'ok I guessed there was a winky...  I just can't understand why Companies get to make profit yet they're relying on volunteers for loads of it who are not paid (and have to pay their own costs) and tax breaks and fucking up huge parts of the country at cost to the taxpayer etc.

[citoyen]

The companies are paying to advertise, aren't they?  I hope they're not getting paid to advertise!

I don't believe the companies are bearing costs in proportion to their profits, and I believe the cost to the British taxpayer far outweighs the benefits to the British taxpayer of the games. They're being run for the private profit of international corporations (the IOC being one of the private companies that's profiting). Yes, I do think there's something wrong with that. That's my opinion on a matter of principle.

d.

[Biggsy]

Apart from spoiling the aesthetics, I'm happy to have have as much private sponsorship as possible for things that I don't want entirely funded by the taxpayer.  The amount of profit seems irrelevant to me.  Those who don't want to contribute to the sponsors can minimise their burger and pop consumption.  Yes I don't think loads of money going to fast food companies is a good use of the world's human and material resources, but that's down to the wider issue of capitalism in general - nothing especially specific to the Olympics.

[citoyen]

I'm happy to have have as much private sponsorship as possible for things that I don't want entirely funded by the taxpayer.

The cost of the games so far is over £11bn, of which we have contributed over £9bn - and with costs still rising, we're likely to have to contribute more. Considering how much UNTAXED profit private companies stand to make from the games, I think they could have borne a larger share of the costs.

And what is the actual benefit to the British economy of hosting the games? Can we really expect to see any return on our investment?

And where the fuck has all that money gone anyway? The games themselves better be pretty damn fucking special at that price.

d.

[ferret]

not sure why everybody is so surprised, when they announced we had been given the olympics, however long ago that was, we knew we could not afford it, since then we've gone in to deeper recession, the bill for putting the games on has increased and venues have been unnecessarily created when there were perfectly useable and world class venues already in place, not to mention it is after all the LONDON olympics, what really fecks me off is the corporate tickets why the hell has british gas etc etc got tickets to give away, when joe public cant get tickets for events they want to see, I believe it was Johnathon Agnew from TMS that announced he had been allocated tickets for the dressage when he had applied for athletics and boxing,
not sure what the legacy will be for the UK as a whole more debt I suppose,   

I will still watch it on tv though,

[Exit Stage Left]

I took an early morning trip to a local village to see the torch procession. Croston has lots of events, as it's easily by-passed. I made a little film about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=henvbdNEuI0&feature=g-upl


It confirmed my belief that the idea of a stadium games is outdated, events could have easily been dispersed across the UK and bound together by the net. The actual torch relay functions like a big cycle road race. It's noticeable that the key motrorcycle outrider is from the Met, I'd expect them to be rotating those outriders so they're all up to speed for the road cycling events and the road running.

[citoyen]

not sure why everybody is so surprised

Who said anything about being surprised? It was widely predicted that it would go massively over-budget at the time we won the bid.

The corporate whoring of The Olympic Spirit^TM was also generally anticipated, just maybe not to quite the extent it has been carried out.

d.

[Biggsy]

The cost of the games so far is over £11bn, of which we have contributed over £9bn - and with costs still rising, we're likely to have to contribute more. Considering how much UNTAXED profit private companies stand to make from the games, I think they could have borne a larger share of the costs.

Agreed, although there's not unlimited money for advertising.

And what is the actual benefit to the British economy of hosting the games? Can we really expect to see any return on our investment?

I don't know.  My feelings are mixed and confused, and it goes beyond just this country if we want to be moral.  Shouldn't the money go to Africa and Asia?  Meanwhile, I'll enjoy the thrill, while feeling guilty.

I'm reminded of the Tour de France's visit to London.  The spectacle of the incredibly long convoy of vehicles leading the riders was the most OTT and disproportionate thing I've ever seen, and was brilliant for being so.  I'll remember it for the rest of my life.  The Olympics will be like that on a grand scale.  There is value to this, in a non-financial and wicked way.

[citoyen]

It's no different to the idea of investing in high-speed rail or road-building. They don't pay you back directly, but they generate growth.

Hmmm. That's by no means an uncontroversial statement.

d.

[mattc]

Ross:
You paint a rosy scene. But are there any figures for this stuff? (i shall allow Locog propaganda!) I'm sure I've read that major Games usually lose their hosts money.

(I don't see any long-term growth benefits - especially as the venues tend to sit unused. But I'm prepared to buy the extra VAT stuff etc, IF there is any evidence for it. Not sure sales of TVs alone are going to cut it  ... )

[Exit Stage Left]

Ross:
You paint a rosy scene. But are there any figures for this stuff? (i shall allow Locog propaganda!) I'm sure I've read that major Games usually lose their hosts money.

(I don't see any long-term growth benefits - especially as the venues tend to sit unused. But I'm prepared to buy the extra VAT stuff etc, IF there is any evidence for it. Not sure sales of TVs alone are going to cut it  ... )

"No reasonable person thinks that the direct benefits of hosting the Olympic Games or any other mega event cover the costs," concludes Andrew Rose, an economist at the Haas School of Business at the University of California in Berkeley. Rose and his colleagues combed Olympic records and economic data for evidence of benefits and produced a study titled The Olympic Effect.

"You have to have some enormous indirect benefit, and that's what we've been focusing on in our research," Rose continues. His study did not find the kind of indirect benefits Olympic boosters promote, such as increased tourism or new industries. Instead, Olympic host cities, on average, experience a 30 percent increase in international trade.

Cities simply bidding for the Olympics experience the same sustained growth in exports. Even those losing out in the Olympic bidding contest benefit.

"When a country submits a serious bid to host the Olympics," Rose says, "what they're really doing is saying that they're open for business and they're going to become internationally integrated and a serious member of the international community."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113351145

However, we are now stuck with the London games, so we'd better make the most of it.

[geraldc]

The Olympics just make people feel good (admittedly this is not true on this forum). They're often described as coming out parties, ie a nation saying we're not that sh!t anymore, eg. South Korea and China, where they put on a show for the world, or Tokyo where they're saying we're not the same bad people you thought we were.

On reflection, maybe that's just what Asians think of the games.

I still remember seeing images of the jetpack at the LA games, and thinking it was the most awesome thing ever. I can't remember why the Soviet bloc boycotted, all I remember is the jetpack.

Admittedly when you're spending public money in a recession, people are going to get really hacked off, especially if it doesn't redistribute wealth or create jobs, but the other countries around the world will really enjoy it even if the locals don't.  Think of it as the Benny Hill show for the newish millenium.

[clarion]

Given the restrictions in place in London, and the expected congestion, I imagine that the losses to the UK economy in terms of lost time, increased pollution, lateness for work, lateness home, less time with families etc will be significant.

[hubner]

It doesn't matter if it makes or loses money overall or in the long term, plenty of people are going to come out of the games very rich!

[clarion]

And plenty poorer.

[Exit Stage Left]

I'm impressed by how much value the French get out of PBP. The costs are pretty minimal, yet the participants are influential people in their own societies. I think that more goodwill is spread by participative, amateur events than by professional sport. Partly because those taking part have status in their communities beyond their abilities as sportsmen and women. Which means that they return as ambassadors for their hosts, rather than as the victor or the vanquished.

[mattc]

I'm impressed by how much value the French get out of PBP. The costs are pretty minimal, yet the participants are influential people in their own societies. I think that more goodwill is spread by participative, amateur events than by professional sport. Partly because those taking part have status in their communities beyond their abilities as sportsmen and women. Which means that they return as ambassadors for their hosts, rather than as the victor or the vanquished.

You may well be right. It's rather sad that this all developed from being the "pinnacle" of amateur sport.

[ferret]

I think it would have had better support if it had been the the UK or GB Olympics with the events spread out over the whole country, calling it the London Olympics causes problems straight away without saying another word, believe me as an Englishman living in Wales I get to see things from the other side of the fence,

[geraldc]

I think the Olympics insist on it being a city

[andrewc]

Judging by all the fuss & the number of police in town it would appear to have reached Liverpool 

[Exit Stage Left]

I'm impressed by how much value the French get out of PBP. The costs are pretty minimal, yet the participants are influential people in their own societies. I think that more goodwill is spread by participative, amateur events than by professional sport. Partly because those taking part have status in their communities beyond their abilities as sportsmen and women. Which means that they return as ambassadors for their hosts, rather than as the victor or the vanquished.

You may well be right. It's rather sad that this all developed from being the "pinnacle" of amateur sport.

The supreme irony is that PBP developed from professional sport designed to sell newspapers, while the Olympics descends from a Corinthian ideal of the gentleman amateur. The conflict between the two in French politics is an interesting area of study, given the sports policy of the Vichy government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9volution_nationale#The_sport_policy