Grammar that makes you cringe

[Ian H]

+1. The problem with the "as long as people understand" argument is that you don't know whether they have until they act on it.

True, but, except with people you know well, when, apart from the simplest communications, is that ever not the case?

[drossall]

English is only my second language, but based on this I would use 'do wrong' in the same way they are giving 'go wrong' as an example. Would that be wrong? Is it a rule or convention when it comes to this?

Apologies, my comment was somewhat discourteous, given the circumstances.

In "Do wrong", wrong is being used as a noun; it's the same construction as "Play cricket". The wording I questioned was "Do it wrong". That's the same as "Play cricket well". Cricket is being "played well", with "well qualifying "played" rather than "cricket". Similarly, "it" is being "done wrong".

Hence, "well" and "wrong" are being used as adverbs, each qualifying an action. However, the adverbial form is "wrongly", not "wrong".

Therefore, "Do wrong", but "Do it wrongly".

At least, that's my view. Not sure whether too many people care these days - simplification and all that...

[drossall]

Ian - true, but does it justify adding to the confusion?

If even someone you know well goes shopping for you, you might ask to modify the list for next week. You should get a different result depending on whether you ask for:

• fewer large loaves, or:
• less large loaves

You may get the same either way, but at least there's a chance if you both know how to make the distinction

[Ian H]

Ian - true, but does it justify adding to the confusion?

I'm not trying to add to confusion (there's enough about anyway), just suggesting, tongue-in-cheek, that in the real world that's how language works - or not, as the case may be.

[drossall]

I'll agree with that

[citoyen]

Double negatives.

Like wot Shakespeare and Chaucer both used.

IIRC used to mean emphasis. "Not not" was more negative than plain "Not".

Yes it's a hangover from Anglo Saxon. That;s why Chaucer had an excuse. In modern English though it just ends up meaning the opposite of that which was intended.

Except in practice it doesn't. Everyone understands what is meant.

Indeed. Pcolbeck's position is a common misapprehension based on an incorrect assumption that negatives in the English language operate the same as they do in mathematical language.

They don't. Never have done. Not no how no way never.

d.

[clarion]

I'm not unsympathetic to that view, but I can't help feeling that no unhelpful grammar would not be unwelcome

[pcolbeck]

One of the manufacturers whose equipment I have to do be qualified on used to be fond of setting questions like that. Drove me mad they were supposed to testing how well you knew computer stuff not how carefully you could read their questions. Loads of question of this sort

Which of the following is not a feature that does not provide ....

[citoyen]

That's what's known in formal rhetoric as litotes, and is different to using double negatives for straightforward, unironic emphasis. Litotes can be used to good effect as a kind of irony but is best avoided if it causes ambiguity or misunderstanding, as in your examples. Double negatives used for emphasis rarely cause ambiguity, which is what Ian H was referring to.

d.

[Phil]

I don't think pcolbeck's example is a litotes.  Do you mean Clarion's example?

[mattc]

The only time double negatives are any use is when referencing another statement/quote e.g.

I'm not trying to add to confusion

->
I don't think Ian is not trying to add to confusion.

[Kim]

Have I mentioned Birmingham City Council's war on possessive apostrophes?  Grr.

[rower40]

Not so much making me cringe, but completely open to ambiguity and misunderstanding, are questions asked using a negative:

"You're not going out dressed like that?"

What does the answer "Yes" mean?  "Yes, I'm not" or "Yes I am"?

[Kim]

On a related note, it is of course practically compulsory to answer an 'or' question with "yes"   

[Séamas M.]

At work I find that most people don't frame their questions precisely enough, so my usual anwer is "yes and no!"

[citoyen]

I don't think pcolbeck's example is a litotes.

Er... you're probably right. I'm not really sure, tbh.

d.

[HTFB]

Have I mentioned Birmingham City Council's war on possessive apostrophes?  Grr.

Lewisham Council have handed over the library to our management but we still have all their council-branded signs up. The main room is titled "Adult's Library." I think this love and accuracy of learning may indicate why the council have shut libraries first in their budget cuts.

(For balance I should admit that it's our handwritten notice that says "There is no working printers in the library.")

[jeremaiah]

You know what I could never wrap my head around, being foreign and all, is the whole 'mind' business. For instance:

Would you mind closing the window?
No (and closes the window)

Would you mind closing the window?
Sure (in reality yes, but still closes the window)

I guess it's just not common for the English to mind, is it? You have to say, I do mind, don't you?

I can't seem to grasp this. 

[mattc]

That's just an etiquette/manners issue. I think.

Would you mind closing the window?

Really means:
Please close the window, even if you object slightly, but if it is a big problem, don't.

It doesn't mean:
Tell me all about any objections you have to closing the window.

[Cudzoziemiec]

And therefore you can answer "No (I don't mind, so I will shut it)"
or
"Yes (I will shut the window)".

The first answers the literal question, the second the intention.

[Kim]

I tend to favour "Yes, but I'll do it anyway."  See above re: answering 'or' questions.

[border-rider]

You know what I could never wrap my head around, being foreign and all, is the whole 'mind' business. For instance:

Would you mind closing the window?
No (and closes the window)

Would you mind closing the window?
Sure (in reality yes, but still closes the window)

I guess it's just not common for the English to mind, is it? You have to say, I do mind, don't you?

I can't seem to grasp this. 

I think the latter is an Americanism

The correct British response is either "No, not at all" <closes window>

or "Actually, I'd rather it were left open if you don't mind, old chap" <doesn't close window>

[mattc]

I tend to favour "Yes, but I'll do it anyway."  See above re: answering 'or' questions.

Are you known as a "team player" at work, Kim?

[Greenbank]

Not so much making me cringe, but completely open to ambiguity and misunderstanding, are questions asked using a negative:

"You're not going out dressed like that?"

What does the answer "Yes" mean?  "Yes, I'm not" or "Yes I am"?

Many languages have ways of dealing with this.

The German 'doch' or French 'si' are extra ways to answer a negatively phrased question unambiguously.

[jeremaiah]

Oh, I see, ok. Given that I'm usually uncomfortable with that phrase, I use 'Could you please close the window?' cause it's less ambiguous and does not involve asking the person if they mind

To the 'You're not going out dressed like that?' I would probably just say - 'I am', instead of yes. But I would still take the 'yes' as a confirmation of the opposite, thus 'Yes, I am'.