Grammar that makes you cringe

[nicknack]

What did you object to about its origins?

[Gareth Rees]

Middle English had a genitive ending -es. For example, Chaucer says of the Knight, "Ful worthy was he in his lordes werre" (you can tell that the -e- in lordes was pronounced because of the scansion of the line). But by the Early Modern period the -e- was mostly no longer pronounced, so some printers used the spelling -'s with an apostrophe to indicate an elision. (Other printers just wrote the ending -s, as it was pronounced, for example the Shakespeare First Folio has "my Lords diſpleaſure". Still others continued to use the archaic spelling -es, for example the first edition of Shakespeare's Sonnets has "Thy end is Truthes and Beauties doome and date" but the -e- could not have been pronounced by the poet because it would break the scansion.)

[Nuncio]

It depends, doesn't it, on the stress? "He didn't do that". "But he must of".  The "of" could be [ə] (unstressed) or [ɔ].

I'm confused. It shouldn't be an "of" at all. It should be "But he must have".

When he finally confesses, we will know that he had done it, not that he of done it.

Yes.  Sorry.  It shouldn't be 'of'.  But if it is and is used in speech, can you tell the difference?  I would suggest yes, sometimes.

[citoyen]

Of/have was treated as a spelling mistake.  Which, with hindsight, makes me cringe.

Arguably, it is a spelling mistake more than a grammatical error.

Using an inappropriate tense of the verb "to have" (eg "He could having...") would be a grammatical error. Writing "of" instead of "have" is incorrect transcription of a grammatically correct statement.

[citoyen]

In the trailer for Jack Whitehall's new chat show with his dad, he says "...join me and my father", which Whitehall Sr immediately corrects to "my father and me".

But why? How is the second version more "correct" than the first? Grammatically, the two forms of the statement are identical. 

I suppose I should be grateful at least that he didn't correct it to "My father and I". 

[drossall]

It's not really grammar, but manners. When speaking about another and oneself, one always puts the other first. Hence, "Brian and me", not "Me and Brian".

Grammatically, either is correct, provided that (as in your allusion) the case of both nouns is correct. Of course, in English, proper names don't decline, so only the pronoun can be in the wrong case.

[citoyen]

It's not really grammar, but manners.

Is it well mannered to dogmatically humiliate your son on national TV like that?

[drossall]

And to split your infinitives?

Presumably, if he wrote the script, it's OK...

[citoyen]

And to split your infinitives?

If ever a grammar rule deserved to be broken, it's that one. I do it as a matter of principle. 

[mattc]

It depends, doesn't it, on the stress? "He didn't do that". "But he must of".  The "of" could be [ə] (unstressed) or [ɔ].

I'm confused. It shouldn't be an "of" at all. It should be "But he must have".

When he finally confesses, we will know that he had done it, not that he of done it.

Yes.  Sorry.  It shouldn't be 'of'.  But if it is and is used in speech, can you tell the difference?  I would suggest yes, sometimes.

I agree that you can very often hear the difference. However, you will only hear a difference if you know what you are listening for! If you're expecting "of", you will hear it whenever you choose, whatever the speaker intended.


Some people have learned a form of English that includes "could of", "must of" etc.  My guess is they've picked it up by listening - unconsciously - and just aren't the sort of people to analyse their written English at all. (Whereas most of us on this thread are very anal indeed about our written English!) Arguably their teachers should of thrashed it out've them...

[clarion]

Not really grammar, but spelling: Metro again had a mention of 'Polari' this morning.  Good heavens, it's great that underground gay culture gets so many positive mentions in a widely read paper, but couldn't they just manage to spell 'Palare' correctly?  It was originally a mangling from European languages, and was usually said with a long first 'a' (hence the occasional contemporary spelling of 'parlare', like 'parler').

Just stop it, will you?  It's like hipsters are trying to appropriate Queer culture without understanding it.

[Ian H]

Not really grammar, but spelling: Metro again had a mention of 'Polari' this morning.  Good heavens, it's great that underground gay culture gets so many positive mentions in a widely read paper, but couldn't they just manage to spell 'Palare' correctly?  It was originally a mangling from European languages, and was usually said with a long first 'a' (hence the occasional contemporary spelling of 'parlare', like 'parler').

Just stop it, will you?  It's like hipsters are trying to appropriate Queer culture without understanding it.

It might be more complicated than that.

[clarion]

The author agrees that Polari is a new spelling, which seems at odds with the others he (I'm assuming Paul Baker wrote the page) cites.

Polari is still wrong, a recent invention by people who don't know the history.  Can we have our Palare/parlaree/parlyaree* back, please?

* this one I've only ever heard as a knowing variant.

[Gareth Rees]

The OED's citations for polari include:

1967   K. Williams Diary 28 Mar. (1993) 300   We walked right into Dennis ‘My dear I know Danny La Rue terribly well..& introduced Tennessee Williams to loads of trade’ etc. etc. & so we got landed with the round of drinks and the polari.

I don't think Kenneth Williams can really be accused of being a "hipster trying to appropriate Queer culture without understanding it."

[clarion]

Fair enough.  But I never encountered that spelling until a couple of years ago.  Palare was the dominant one for most of the period.

[Gareth Rees]

Fair enough.  But I never encountered that spelling until a couple of years ago.  Palare was the dominant one for most of the period.

The OED also notes the spellings pallary, palarey, palari, palary, parlare, parlari, parlary, and parlyaree. With so many alternatives, I don't think it's possible to read all that much into any one choice of spelling.

[clarion]

All of those have a as the second letter, and four have an r after it.  How can people mistake this for the o?  That's my real irritation.

But Palare is definitely the most common spelling.  I'm sure the OED lists variants for many other words which have regularised spelling.

[Cudzoziemiec]

What's striking in that list of core words from Palari/palare/polari/whatever is how many of them have entered mainstream English. "Send up" isn't even slang, is it? The inclusion of "cod" to mean "awful" seems rather similar to "codswallop" and "cod piece" and other fishy slang, which makes me wonder how much of that list actually originated as, er, this gay slang beginning with P.

[Gareth Rees]

All of those have a as the second letter, and four have an r after it.  How can people mistake this for the o?  That's my real irritation.

The spelling polari comes from the pronunciation /pəˈlɑːri/. Listen to this BBC interview with Paul Baker, or this video by David Benson.

[Ian H]

Is this spelling uncertainty anything to do with it being, until recently, an unwritten language? Think of spelling variations before print.

[Bledlow]

What did you object to about its origins?

If we did it for every letter lost from Middle English, we'd have apostrophes everywhere, which would be silly, I also thought it pandered to the idiots peddling the "It shows the omission of 'hi' as in 'John his horse'" nonsense, which I though had helped to perpetuate it.

I already knew that 's' is derived from the common Germanic genitive ending.

[Bledlow]

And to split your infinitives?

If ever a grammar rule deserved to be broken, it's that one. I do it as a matter of principle. 

Hear hear!

Ain't it one of them Latinisms forced onto English by the sort of classical scholar which imagined Latin to be the ubersprach?

It's not really grammar, but manners.

Is it well mannered to dogmatically humiliate your son on national TV like that?

If the son's Jack Whitehall, yes.

[citoyen]

It's like hipsters are trying to appropriate Queer culture

Didn't the Queers appropriate it from the Punch & Judy men?

[clarion]

What's striking in that list of core words from Palari/palare/polari/whatever is how many of them have entered mainstream English. "Send up" isn't even slang, is it? The inclusion of "cod" to mean "awful" seems rather similar to "codswallop" and "cod piece" and other fishy slang, which makes me wonder how much of that list actually originated as, er, this gay slang beginning with P.

It's like hipsters are trying to appropriate Queer culture

Didn't the Queers appropriate it from the Punch & Judy men?

Quite.  Even the name Palare indicates that it's a magpie language, using elements of foreign languages - some picked up on the newly fashionable foreign holidays, some from immigrant communities in London (notably Yiddish), Cockney rhyming slang, backslang from the market porters etc etc.

[citoyen]

Which reminds me...

For a brilliant take on what happens to words when an oral tradition makes the transition into written form, read Riddley Walker. It's apposite to the case under discussion, not least for the prominent role played in the story by Mr Punch.