Grammar that makes you cringe

[citoyen]

Something is either historic, or it is not, there is no graduation.

The name of the programme is a bit clunky (which fits with the content, based on the episode I half watched), but I don't agree with this bit.

'Historic' means more than just 'happened in the past' - because after all, not every past event is deemed worthy of being recorded in the history books. There's an element of fame (or infamy) and importance implied.

Even without that distinction, is there not also a chronological element? An event that happened last week might be considered less historic than one that happened a thousand years ago. Given that the series is looking at towns where momentous events occurred in the past, I think it's much more acceptable in this case than the normal everyday lazy hack usage you see so often, where any vaguely important current event is described as 'historic'.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Something is either historic, or it is not, there is no graduation.

The name of the programme is a bit clunky (which fits with the content, based on the episode I half watched), but I don't agree with this bit.

'Historic' means more than just 'happened in the past' - because after all, not every past event is deemed worthy of being recorded in the history books. There's an element of fame (or infamy) and importance implied.

Even without that distinction, is there not also a chronological element? An event that happened last week might be considered less historic than one that happened a thousand years ago. Given that the series is looking at towns where momentous events occurred in the past, I think it's much more acceptable in this case than the normal everyday lazy hack usage you see so often, where any vaguely important current event is described as 'historic'.

But learning how to preserve grapes by drying them, several thousand years ago, was a historic currant event.


I'll get my coat...

[Paul]

Something is either historic, or it is not, there is no graduation.

The name of the programme is a bit clunky (which fits with the content, based on the episode I half watched), but I don't agree with this bit.

'Historic' means more than just 'happened in the past' - because after all, not every past event is deemed worthy of being recorded in the history books. There's an element of fame (or infamy) and importance implied.

Even without that distinction, is there not also a chronological element? An event that happened last week might be considered less historic than one that happened a thousand years ago. Given that the series is looking at towns where momentous events occurred in the past, I think it's much more acceptable in this case than the normal everyday lazy hack usage you see so often, where any vaguely important current event is described as 'historic'.

But learning how to preserve grapes by drying them, several thousand years ago, was a historic currant event.


I'll get my coat...

That Cudzo - always raisin the bar.

[citoyen]

But learning how to preserve grapes by drying them, several thousand years ago, was a historic currant event.

I missed that one - they must have pruned down the history books to only include the most important dates.

[ian]

Something is either historic, or it is not, there is no graduation.

The name of the programme is a bit clunky (which fits with the content, based on the episode I half watched), but I don't agree with this bit.

'Historic' means more than just 'happened in the past' - because after all, not every past event is deemed worthy of being recorded in the history books. There's an element of fame (or infamy) and importance implied.

Even without that distinction, is there not also a chronological element? An event that happened last week might be considered less historic than one that happened a thousand years ago. Given that the series is looking at towns where momentous events occurred in the past, I think it's much more acceptable in this case than the normal everyday lazy hack usage you see so often, where any vaguely important current event is described as 'historic'.

I don't understand either, it's the most historic towns in Britain. There are lots of historic towns. The programme is about the top ones.

Americans have disavowed all -al endings so everything that has happened ever there is historic.

[T42]

There's a TV series on UK TV at the moment called "Britain's Most Historic Towns"

And because I've watched too much West Wing, it always jars.

Something is either historic, or it is not, there is no graduation. Same for Unique. Something is either unique or it isn't. It can't be very unique.

Argh. Why do they persist in this appalling English?

J

I'd be more exercised about some of the "Towns" being cities.
If I could be arsed; I don't do exercise.

In the UK, "city" means it has a royal charter and a cathedral. Anywhere else it means it's got a McDonald's and a Starbucks - which, frankly, are a hell of a lot more useful.

[Cudzoziemiec]

But learning how to preserve grapes by drying them, several thousand years ago, was a historic currant event.

I missed that one - they must have pruned down the history books to only include the most important dates.

Mainstream historians don't give a fig about the development of agriculture. 

[SteveC]

In the UK, "city" means it has a royal charter and a cathedral. Anywhere else it means it's got a McDonald's and a Starbucks - which, frankly, are a hell of a lot more useful.

<pedant>No. It just needs the charter. Southampton is a city, no cathedral. Guildford is a town, but has a cathedral. Cambridge is a city due to the university, not a cathedral. The rule of thumb is: city - cathedral or university, town - market, village - church, hamlet - anything else, but there are exceptions to all of these. But towns and cities, historically at least, need charters.

[Tim Hall]

In the UK, "city" means it has a royal charter and a cathedral. Anywhere else it means it's got a McDonald's and a Starbucks - which, frankly, are a hell of a lot more useful.

<pedant>No. It just needs the charter. Southampton is a city, no cathedral.

Portsmouth is a city and has two. That must do wonders for the Southampton/Portsmouth rivalry.

[citoyen]

Portsmouth is a city and has two.

Pertinently, Portsmouth was the subject of the episode I half-watched.

[SteveC]

Catholic cathedrals don't count--has to be CofE

[citoyen]

Catholic cathedrals don't count--has to be CofE

Interesting. That would never have occurred to me. But it got me wondering if there are any UK towns/cities that have an RC cathedral but not an Anglican one...

Google has so far turned up Aldershot.

[Poacher]

Catholic cathedrals don't count--has to be CofE

Interesting. That would never have occurred to me. But it got me wondering if there are any UK towns/cities that have an RC cathedral but not an Anglican one...

Google has so far turned up Aldershot.

You can add Nottingham to the list.

[Cudzoziemiec]

It's a royal charter, so it has to be the royal religion.

As for places with an RC cathedral but not a CE one, the RC cathedral in Bristol is technically designated as Clifton. 

[citoyen]

It's a royal charter, so it has to be the royal religion.

Yes, it was obvious as soon as SteveC mentioned it, but it's not something I'd ever given much thought before. Mainly because most places with an RC cathedral do also have an Anglican one, so it's a moot point as regards city status.

I know Clifton cathedral but never realised it was designated Clifton rather than Bristol. I expect many of the residents would like to be dissociated from the rest of Bristol, but it's a bit of a cheek!

And Nottingham - yes, I remember that one too, now Poacher mentions it, but it didn't come to mind before.

[Davef]

According to my dictionary historic means “famous or important in history”. Nothing wrong with some towns being historicer, meaning famouser or importanter than others.

[philip]

But it got me wondering if there are any UK towns/cities that have an RC cathedral but not an Anglican one...

Google has so far turned up Aldershot.

You can add Nottingham to the list.

And Lancaster.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I know Clifton cathedral but never realised it was designated Clifton rather than Bristol. I expect many of the residents would like to be dissociated from the rest of Bristol, but it's a bit of a cheek!

They probably would, but I doubt that was going through the mind of the Catholic hierarchy back in the 19th century! I've no idea why it's not just designated Bristol.

[citoyen]

I've no idea why it's not just designated Bristol.

Different diocese areas, I imagine.

London is in Canterbury as far as Anglicans are concerned, but Canterbury is in London (Southwark) for Catholics.

[SteveC]

I've no idea why it's not just designated Bristol.

When Catholics were allowed to have a hierarchy in the UK again, mid-nineteenth century¹, part of the agreement was that no RC diocese would have the same name as a CofE one. That is no longer the case (Portsmouth as quoted up thread being an example).
However, in order to really hack of the establishment, the mother church of English Roman Catholicism is Westminster Cathedral (as opposed to Westminster Abbey).

[1] - it had been perfectly legal to practice Catholicism for some time, but there was no diocesan structure.

(very) lapsed Catholic with far too much of an interest in historical trivia

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've no idea why it's not just designated Bristol.

When Catholics were allowed to have a hierarchy in the UK again, mid-nineteenth century¹, part of the agreement was that no RC diocese would have the same name as a CofE one.

Ah! A reason that makes sense! Thanks.

[yorkie]

But it got me wondering if there are any UK towns/cities that have an RC cathedral but not an Anglican one...

Google has so far turned up Aldershot.

You can add Nottingham to the list.

And Lancaster.

...and Leeds. The RC Cathedral on Great George St. has been designated such for many years, but the CofE Leeds Parish Church on Kirkgate has only recently been renamed Leeds Minster.

[Rod Marton]

But it got me wondering if there are any UK towns/cities that have an RC cathedral but not an Anglican one...

Google has so far turned up Aldershot.

You can add Nottingham to the list.

And Lancaster.

...and Leeds. The RC Cathedral on Great George St. has been designated such for many years, but the CofE Leeds Parish Church on Kirkgate has only recently been renamed Leeds Minster.

And Arundel.

[citoyen]

...and Leeds. The RC Cathedral on Great George St. has been designated such for many years, but the CofE Leeds Parish Church on Kirkgate has only recently been renamed Leeds Minster.

I had to do a street view to remind myself where the cathedral was - it's a few years since I lived there and now I hardly recognise the place. The road layout in the city centre seems to have changed pretty radically.

[Moleman76]

There's a TV series on UK TV at the moment called "Britain's Most Historic Towns"

At least the series is not called "Britain's Historicest Towns"