Author Topic: The TT Thread  (Read 408889 times)

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #75 on: 01 May, 2008, 04:28:21 pm »
I never ride with any instrument on board the TT machine. I just try as hard as I can!

I think you mean form and friction drags Matt. If Boardman was working withinh his zone on both climb and ascent then he was okay I'd say; he may have also been working as a team for Manning.
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

Fixedwheelnut

  • "If it ain't fixed it's broken"
    • My photos
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #76 on: 01 May, 2008, 08:12:15 pm »
I'll need to get a new speedo before next time - just hurting isn't enough of a guide, speed is the key.

A heart rate monitor would be a better guide, and an (expensive) power meter better still... speed is too dependent on conditions. You can be doing a very good ride (relative to other competitors) and still not going very fast. Or you can be flying along with a tailwind, and not trying hard enough. A HRM tells you if you are slacking.

I have mixed feelings regarding HRMs. They certainly tell you when your not trying, but as you get older and begin to feel less invinciple, they frighten you to death.
The highest maximum HR (using the most opimistic formulae I can find) for may age (64) is 170 BPM. During a "10" my HR will be around 160 - 165 peaking at 175BPM, I have to fight the temptation to throttle back at 170BPM for fear of blowing the engine.
I'm doing my first TT of the season this evening (Old Ports 12.6 mls) - if it's not p*ssing down. :)

 Where do the old portlians run there TT from then?
 I'll have to try and get along to that, especially as the Bexley CC West Kingsdown course is still shut until end of May due to roadworks.
"Don't stop pedalling"

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #77 on: 02 May, 2008, 09:53:03 am »
Paul Manning rode the Duo Normande with Chris Boardman (and they still have course record) He reckoned that Boardman was going up the climbs within his pulse zone, but went down the other side at the same effort.
Then Boardman was not a student of fluid dynamics. Because of the rise in friction with v^2, once you're freewheeling downhill at, say 30mph, it requires a lot of power to go 1mph quicker.
At least SOME of that power would be better spent where you're only doing 15mph flat out at your "average" effort.

Of course, if you overdo this you'll cook yourself, but there must be a compromise somewhere in between.

It's physiology, not fluid dynamics. Boardman rode at a more or less constant effort, carefully graded on the basis of his considerable experience to be sustainable over the distance to be ridden, and with a slight increase above maximum sustainable power output towards the end of the race. There's no doubt that that is the best approach, physiologically speaking - it means that you have a slowly accumulating intramuscular acidosis, but do not reach a level which is catastrophic to muscle function until you have just crossed the line, when it doesn't matter any more.
Profit or planet?

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #78 on: 02 May, 2008, 10:20:03 am »
I'll need to get a new speedo before next time - just hurting isn't enough of a guide, speed is the key.

A heart rate monitor would be a better guide, and an (expensive) power meter better still... speed is too dependent on conditions. You can be doing a very good ride (relative to other competitors) and still not going very fast. Or you can be flying along with a tailwind, and not trying hard enough. A HRM tells you if you are slacking.

I have mixed feelings regarding HRMs. They certainly tell you when your not trying, but as you get older and begin to feel less invinciple, they frighten you to death.
The highest maximum HR (using the most opimistic formulae I can find) for may age (64) is 170 BPM. During a "10" my HR will be around 160 - 165 peaking at 175BPM, I have to fight the temptation to throttle back at 170BPM for fear of blowing the engine.
I'm doing my first TT of the season this evening (Old Ports 12.6 mls) - if it's not p*ssing down. :)

 Where do the old portlians run there TT from then?
 I'll have to try and get along to that, especially as the Bexley CC West Kingsdown course is still shut until end of May due to roadworks.


Where do the old portlians run there TT from then?
 I'll have to try and get along to that, especially as the Bexley CC West Kingsdown course is still shut until end of May due to roadworks.

[/quote]

Starts at Crowhurst Village hall at 7:00pm on Thursday evenings, See:
http://www.oldportlianscc.co.uk/diary.htm
It's 2 laps of a 6.25 ml road circuit. Not flat, but neither could it be called hilly. The roads were quiet on the most part, with some braking needed in 2 or 3 places only. It cost £2 as a non-member. The guys from The Old Ports were welcoming (I'm not a member) and were going off to the local Pub afterwards for a "quick one" (I was tempted, but the trouble & strife was waiting at home to have dinner with me).
Anyway enough about them - what about me!
It turned out to be lovely sunny evening (after all the rain during the day), a bit chilly with loads of midges.
I did it in 37:30 which equates to 30:00 for a '10' - disappointing but it was the first race of the season and as you might imagine, the extra 2.5 miles were the slowest. (The winning time was 32:00).
As regards HRMs and Max BPM wot we discussed in earlier posts: My Max recorded HR was 175, but generally around 160-165, dropping to 158 on a few occassions when I lost the plot.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #79 on: 02 May, 2008, 11:10:55 am »
Paul Manning rode the Duo Normande with Chris Boardman (and they still have course record) He reckoned that Boardman was going up the climbs within his pulse zone, but went down the other side at the same effort.
Then Boardman was not a student of fluid dynamics. Because of the rise in friction with v^2, once you're freewheeling downhill at, say 30mph, it requires a lot of power to go 1mph quicker.
At least SOME of that power would be better spent where you're only doing 15mph flat out at your "average" effort.

Of course, if you overdo this you'll cook yourself, but there must be a compromise somewhere in between.

It's physiology, not fluid dynamics. Boardman rode at a more or less constant effort, carefully graded on the basis of his considerable experience to be sustainable over the distance to be ridden, and with a slight increase above maximum sustainable power output towards the end of the race. There's no doubt that that is the best approach, physiologically speaking - it means that you have a slowly accumulating intramuscular acidosis, but do not reach a level which is catastrophic to muscle function until you have just crossed the line, when it doesn't matter any more.

The perfect plan would be a combination of physiology AND fluid dynamics. I'll try one more time to illustrate this:
if your answer was always right, then we would not see elevated heart rates during climbs on mountain stages, and we wouldn't see riders eating on the descents.

So there.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #80 on: 02 May, 2008, 11:53:14 am »
...if your answer was always right, then we would not see elevated heart rates during climbs on mountain stages, and we wouldn't see riders eating on the descents.

So there.

They aren't time trialling, though, are they?
Profit or planet?

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #81 on: 02 May, 2008, 12:05:31 pm »
...if your answer was always right, then we would not see elevated heart rates during climbs on mountain stages, and we wouldn't see riders eating on the descents.

So there.

They aren't time trialling, though, are they?
Is their speed irrelevant to them?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #82 on: 02 May, 2008, 12:55:06 pm »
(enough of this HR clap-trap ...)
I'd like to put myself in the running for ACF TT numpty:
I added an extra roundabout to the route last night. Maybe lost 10 seconds, it's impossible to tell accurately.

I wouldn't care normally, but this ride was carefully planned as a before/after test of my tri-bars. I kept exactly the same heart-rate as 2 weeks ago, and most of the same people were riding so I could have done a sensible comparison, despite a different course.

Doh!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
    • the_dandg_rouleur
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #83 on: 02 May, 2008, 01:40:40 pm »
...if your answer was always right, then we would not see elevated heart rates during climbs on mountain stages, and we wouldn't see riders eating on the descents.

So there.

They aren't time trialling, though, are they?
Is their speed irrelevant to them?

Their speed may not be irrelevant, but riding a hilly TT requires a considerably different style and skill to that required for a hilly RR - and this thread relates to time trialling.

Pace (in a RR) is relatively fast uphill because of attacks, you try to drop weaker riders.

You eat going down hill because gravity helps maintain your pace while your firkin around in your pockets and fumbling with the energy bar wrapper.

Time trialling requires 'rhythm', and pushing oxygen debt every time you hit a rise is going to be detrimental in the long term.

Altho' Boardman was a great time triallist he never performed well on a mountain stage of the Tour, did he?

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #84 on: 02 May, 2008, 02:28:37 pm »
You eat going down hill because gravity helps maintain your pace while your firkin around in your pockets and fumbling with the energy bar wrapper.
... which does in fact reinforce my point.

But anyway ...
unless anyone can point me at data showing heart rates and/or power over a hilly time-trial, with elite riders who knew what they were doing, I don't think we can prove this either way around.

I can say, with certainty, that calories spent climbing buy you more time than those spent descending. Against this is the fact that a constant effort is most efficient for your body (which I believe is the Windy/Harrumph angle). I'm surprised noone agrees that a combination of the two must be a winning strategy.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
    • the_dandg_rouleur
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #85 on: 02 May, 2008, 02:54:42 pm »
I understand what you're saying, but it's the difference in the styles of racing that account for the relative differences in the amount of effort put into climbing/descending.

In a road race, actions are governed by other competitors, It's easy to open a gap uphill, difficult to close it downhill, hence the relative changes of 'speed'. The guy who can attack, recover, attack, recover constantly is the guy with more chance of winning.

In a time trial any action which pushes you too far into the red will be damaging to  performance, as you need to ease off and recover. The trick is to stay 'in control' and optimise your effort to be as constant as possible.

As a youth I was a rider who 'hung-on' over the hills in a RR, but had more than my fair share of wins at 10mile, 25 mile and hilly TT's upto 50 mile, thanks to my ability to maintain a 'constant effort' and keep out of the red till the last few miles

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #86 on: 02 May, 2008, 06:52:01 pm »
Is their speed irrelevant to them?

They are mainly interested in the position in which they finish, whereas a pure (British) time triallist is interested solely in the time in which s/he finishes.

But never mind - I don't do either, because recumbent racing is more fun  :)
Profit or planet?

Really Ancien

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #87 on: 03 May, 2008, 05:04:05 pm »
[
Paul Manning rode the Duo Normande with Chris Boardman (and they still have course record) He reckoned that Boardman was going up the climbs within his pulse zone, but went down the other side at the same effort.


Surely the rider in front on a two-up should be just on the edge of anaerobic effort and recover when the other rider takes a turn, this would apply downhill as well. The hills are always going to be the crucial part of a team time trial. Manning is quite a bit bigger than Boardman was, isn't he?

Damon.


Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #88 on: 03 May, 2008, 06:49:36 pm »
...As someone much faster than I once said to me, "There's no 'pacing yourself' on a 10, it's just flat-out on the pain barrier all the way."

I didn't find that the fastest strategy; physiologically, depth and frequency of breathing requires ~3mins to adjust to demand, so I think that during the first three minutes of a 10 it is unproductive to try and go flat out. After all, it is still an endurance, rather than a sprint, event - compare it with athletics, where the closest equivalent is something between 5,000 and 10,000m.

Having said that, the people who are able to chat happily 5 minutes after finishing are the ones who don't know how to "get it all out". I couldn't speak anything but rubbish for a good half hour after a 10.

I generally find it's better -for me- to build in the first couple miles, then increase the effort (gradually) during the ride, although some others adopt a more even pacing strategy.

I found this useful when I started out (not long ago..)

http://www.flammerouge.je/content/3_factsheets/constant/ttstrat.htm

I took about a minute off my best just by not going off like shit off a stick and practically throwing up within the first 30 seconds.

I wouldn't describe a 10 as flat out, it's gotta be pretty carefully judged- that fine line between a just sustainable very hard effort and a just-not-quite sustainable one. Put a couple short hills on a course and it can make it very hard not to overextend yourself, especially if your eyes are on the computer (sometimes I put a bit of electrical tape over the speed readout, but I find the distance display comforting)


peter carter 2

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #89 on: 04 May, 2008, 11:29:11 pm »
The return of the Eastway Tuesday Tens- but at Hog Hill

We think they should be starting up again @ Hog Hill from the end of this month.

I will post more details when I have them. They should be run much as they were at the Eastway with a 7.00 pm start

However, please remember that Hog Hill is ten miles further east than the Eastway .

peter carter 2

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #90 on: 07 May, 2008, 09:23:35 pm »
Sorry, but the latest is that they are unlikely to return this year.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #91 on: 07 May, 2008, 10:07:40 pm »
Bitterly cold and a stiff easterly tonight.

30:19  :(

Not so good.


What a difference a week makes. Different course, seems much flatter but has a dead turn and a series of sharp bends. The bends affect the faster riders more than the slow ones.

Got sent off at #28 which was a surprise. Seems every one saw the sun and turned up early so we had a record turnout of 47 riders.

Clocked 28:48 which is the second fastest ten (by 1s) I have ridden in Scotland. I didn't go off quite so hard, and seemed to rise into it - the middle stint seemed good to the turn and a bit beyond.Definitely feel where there is scope for improvement. Aiming to beat 28 this year...

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #92 on: 21 May, 2008, 09:48:35 pm »
Tonight it was a wee bit windy. First ten of the year on this course (Meigle-Coupar Angus and back). A stiff tailwind on the out and a struggle coming back in.

Last year I clocked 29:17.

This year I managed to leave the computer behind (Doh!) and felt not very good most of the way round. I had readjusted the tri bars and found a good position - apart from the saddle which was too painful to sit on (needs to go forwards about 3 inches - new seat post required).

Clocked 29:15 - nothing if not consistent.

Fastest of the night was a new course record 21:22 by Mark Atkinson. Second fastest was 22:37, a rider who would clock sub 22 on this course on a still night.

Best performance was one of our Juniors who clocked 30:13 last year - 25:34 this year riding youth A gears. A really good performance and he took home the prize for the fastest Junior.

Plenty of tea, cakes and blethering afterwards. A good night out.
 
..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #93 on: 28 May, 2008, 11:44:48 pm »
Date             Distance         Course type       Weather conditions            Bike ridden               Time
28/5/08          17 miles        Circuit of Coniston  Wet / no wind / 12C          Focus Cayo              51'20s

First time trial ever!

I rode the Circuit of Coniston after being convinced by my mate Allan to have a go. Coniston is a bout an hour away from home so I took a day off and did most of the day out. Picnic and a nice walk around Tarn House. Gorgeous. The girls enjoyed their day.

Back on topic: This was unfamiliar territory to me. Not much scope to go off track even with my infamous orienteering skills: You keep on going left :-)

I survived the experience and I found it hard. Hard to judge how much effort to put in. Hard to judge what's coming next. Hard to judge whether to let yourself go on downhills if unfamilar with the course and in wet conditions.

I don't think I got the time trial bug yet but I am glad I tried one and I would not mind riding one again in the near future. As for improving on the above time, that will have to wait for one year. The circuit of Coniston time trials only run twice a year in May.

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #94 on: 29 May, 2008, 10:12:19 am »
Lots of times being quoted, but where is the context of winner's time?

A 28 minute 10 with the winner doing 27 is different to if the winner does 19.

In Belgium no one ever talks about time, only position and gap to the winner.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #95 on: 29 May, 2008, 10:40:45 am »
Lots of times being quoted, but where is the context of winner's time?

A 28 minute 10 with the winner doing 27 is different to if the winner does 19.

In Belgium no one ever talks about time, only position and gap to the winner.

I pace myself off one of the chaps in the club who rides most of the races. Last year I was 7 mins back for a 10. This year 6.30 and improving. Position is (relatively) meaningless. My highest placing was 3rd. Usually I am n-1 or n-2 (where n is the field size - the 3rd was no exception)

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #96 on: 29 May, 2008, 12:36:26 pm »
. . . In Belgium no one ever talks about time, only position and gap to the winner.

Am I right in thinking that Road Time Trials in Belgium (and France) as races in their own right are virtually non-existant? And only come about as part of a Road Race, which may be why the emphasis is on places rather than times - as you have stated.
I believe the popularity of TTs is a pecularly British thing stemming from the times (pre-war) when any form of massed start Road Racing was illegal.
Feel free to correct me if I wrong. :)

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #97 on: 29 May, 2008, 12:54:46 pm »
Lots of times being quoted, but where is the context of winner's time?

A 28 minute 10 with the winner doing 27 is different to if the winner does 19.

In Belgium no one ever talks about time, only position and gap to the winner.

I did my second 25 a few weeks ago and came 5th, 4'17" down on the winner. The fastest time was 1:00:31 and it is possible to do sub 55 minute rides on that course.

5th sounds much better than 1:04:48 tho'. It wasn't an open event, just a regular event organised by a group of local clubs.

Much work to do before I can get around in an hour.

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #98 on: 29 May, 2008, 01:02:44 pm »
...In Belgium no one ever talks about time, only position and gap to the winner.

Yes, but the poor benighted foreigners don't race over the nice, neat standard distances that we Brits like, do they?
Profit or planet?

Re: The TT Thread
« Reply #99 on: 29 May, 2008, 01:30:56 pm »
Lots of times being quoted, but where is the context of winner's time?

A 28 minute 10 with the winner doing 27 is different to if the winner does 19.

In Belgium no one ever talks about time, only position and gap to the winner.

Here we refer to times, personal improvements, and 'PBs' or personal bests. Times are important because of the national competitions.

...5th sounds much better than 1:04:48 tho'.

You did a "four". If pressed for accuracy, you did a "long four".