Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[LMT]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/mar/06/low-carb-diet-may-reverse-age-related-brain-deterioration-study-finds

The irony given the responses from you and Jakob.

[Jakob]

Whatever issues you got, dude, take them elsewhere.

[Auntie Helen]

Yep, just a troll - suggesting I should be a drug addict to lose the weight rather than eating a healthy diet of fresh food.

I don't recall suggesting you should be a drug addict.

What I do recall is addressing the issue where by a lot of people nowadays seem to associate weight loss as the number one priority when it comes to a  certain lifestyle. This is incorrect, it should be health, i.e someone with a class a drug habit could lose a lot of weight but won't necessarily be healthy.

I wrote yesterday that my blood test results all showed excellent health, including cholesterol.

I lost 20kg last year through changing what I ate, not dieting. Because I am not hungry I can eat less and lose weight the correct way, naturally without counting anything. I am keeping that weight off.

I eat fresh meat (organic, highest animal welfare option) and fresh vegetables. I buy locally-sourced milk and eggs. I do not buy prepackaged biscuits or cake nonsense but make my own when I want them - from fresh ingredients.

I drink tea or tap water, nothing else.

Tell me why eating pasta, potatoes and bread would be a good option for me? Do you really think I should do that
 Is that the right choice for me? My mother is type 2 diabetic, is it really wise for me to switch from ketone burning to glycogen? Is it better for me to be constantly hungry and snacking and 20kg more? Really?

[sojournermike]

Ok, just a troll, I get it. If you dislike keto so much, why are you posting here?

In a nutshell, because I can.

If you wish to label me a troll then fine - I won't lose any sleep over it.

My point still stands though. Why increase a macro which, if you are getting all you need from a lifestyle, you should not be increasing.

And regarding the pizza, I was asking an honest question. Folks on here and elsewhere extol the virtues of a Keto diet, one of these being that you are never hungry or only need to eat one meal a day - yet you could not go 2 hours without food?

I can’t answer for Jakob, but I usually go through the day with one meal and recently sat through an excruciating meeting without touching the provided pizza. It’s fine, and I’m probably not keto

[sojournermike]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/mar/06/low-carb-diet-may-reverse-age-related-brain-deterioration-study-finds

Funny - I just popped on to post that, as my wife had pointed it out to me.

[sojournermike]

To be clear, my original response in ‘cheating’ was a bit of a tease for LMT, as he always approaches this thread with a vegan agenda. I have no issue with his food choices, but he should be clear on where he comes from I think. Plus a bit of banter is normal in my family.

Also, I didn’t try to do veganuary and set out to invert dry January - almost completely successfully, but my daily alcohol consumption was still pitifully low.

[LMT]

Yep, just a troll - suggesting I should be a drug addict to lose the weight rather than eating a healthy diet of fresh food.

I don't recall suggesting you should be a drug addict.

What I do recall is addressing the issue where by a lot of people nowadays seem to associate weight loss as the number one priority when it comes to a  certain lifestyle. This is incorrect, it should be health, i.e someone with a class a drug habit could lose a lot of weight but won't necessarily be healthy.

I wrote yesterday that my blood test results all showed excellent health, including cholesterol.

I lost 20kg last year through changing what I ate, not dieting. Because I am not hungry I can eat less and lose weight the correct way, naturally without counting anything. I am keeping that weight off.

I eat fresh meat (organic, highest animal welfare option) and fresh vegetables. I buy locally-sourced milk and eggs. I do not buy prepackaged biscuits or cake nonsense but make my own when I want them - from fresh ingredients.

I drink tea or tap water, nothing else.

Tell me why eating pasta, potatoes and bread would be a good option for me? Do you really think I should do that
 Is that the right choice for me? My mother is type 2 diabetic, is it really wise for me to switch from ketone burning to glycogen? Is it better for me to be constantly hungry and snacking and 20kg more? Really?

It's an oxymoron about highest animal welfare option. The above reply which goes on and asks for my opinion about what you should eat tells me tht there is an underlying issue here that I don't want to get into.

[sojournermike]

Yep, just a troll - suggesting I should be a drug addict to lose the weight rather than eating a healthy diet of fresh food.

I don't recall suggesting you should be a drug addict.

What I do recall is addressing the issue where by a lot of people nowadays seem to associate weight loss as the number one priority when it comes to a  certain lifestyle. This is incorrect, it should be health, i.e someone with a class a drug habit could lose a lot of weight but won't necessarily be healthy.

I wrote yesterday that my blood test results all showed excellent health, including cholesterol.

I lost 20kg last year through changing what I ate, not dieting. Because I am not hungry I can eat less and lose weight the correct way, naturally without counting anything. I am keeping that weight off.

I eat fresh meat (organic, highest animal welfare option) and fresh vegetables. I buy locally-sourced milk and eggs. I do not buy prepackaged biscuits or cake nonsense but make my own when I want them - from fresh ingredients.

I drink tea or tap water, nothing else.

Tell me why eating pasta, potatoes and bread would be a good option for me? Do you really think I should do that
 Is that the right choice for me? My mother is type 2 diabetic, is it really wise for me to switch from ketone burning to glycogen? Is it better for me to be constantly hungry and snacking and 20kg more? Really?

It's an oxymoron about highest animal welfare option. The above reply which goes on and asks for my opinion about what you should eat tells me tht there is an underlying issue here that I don't want to get into.

I understand and respect this viewpoint. If you are going to, ultimately, kill them high welfare is a bit of a challenging concept. I thini that it's fair to suggest also that there is no reason for cruelty beforehand.

However, that is a different discussion from what is a healthy diet. Functionally, humans have always been omnivores and have had to be opportunistic in eating what was available, changing when conditions changed. It's part of the secret of our 'success'. Also, not as a paleo promotion, it's probably worth remembering that agriculture is a latecomer to the human experience.

[CrinklyLion]

I don’t know what your problem is with keto LMT.

I've always interpreted it as being an objection to a way of eating that pretty much requires you to eat things with faces, and the products thereof. Keto isn't really very compatible with vegetarianism or veganism - but that's not news to anyone here really, is it? 

signed,
a (almost) lifelong vegetarian fattie. After all, chips and dark chocolate are veggie....

[Auntie Helen]

There are some people who eat Keto and vegan, although it is harder. Loads of Keto vegetarians - one of my friends here, for example.

I don’t think I’m eating more meat with Keto, more I have switched from potatoes to kohlrabi or cauliflower, for example.

I don’t have cereal and milk for breakfast as I no longer need breakfast.

I think my consumption of meat and dairy products is about the same, just different choices within those categories (a teaspoon of cream instead of 100ml milk)

[chrisbainbridge]

We eat mainly keto but i love hot cross buns for example so will have the occasional one.  As part of this we are increasingly vegetarian.  We eat tofu one night per week, tempeh a second night and have significantly reduced our meat. 

We have one piece of red meat per week which is now pasture fed.  We have prawns once a week. We may have one chicken breast per week.  Lunch is home made vegetable based soups. We fast one day per week.  We have one night where we have sausages.

if we wanted to be vegetarian we could replace the meat and fish with other vegetable protein sources.  However we have chosen to go for the best quality meat we can, so pasture fed beef and free range organic chicken.

[C-3PO]

This topic will be locked until 14.00 8 March 2020
Play nicely!

[LMT]

To be clear, my original response in ‘cheating’ was a bit of a tease for LMT, as he always approaches this thread with a vegan agenda. I have no issue with his food choices, but he should be clear on where he comes from I think. Plus a bit of banter is normal in my family.

Also, I didn’t try to do veganuary and set out to invert dry January - almost completely successfully, but my daily alcohol consumption was still pitifully low.

I don't, if I did I'd be highlighting yours and everyone else hypocrisy when it comes to consuming animal products which is in line with veganism.

I'm offering my opinion on some of the posts I read. The most recent being people talking about Keto yet cheating on it.

[Ian H]

...The most recent being people talking about Keto yet cheating on it.

Pragmatism in pursuit of a little pleasure.  How utterly awful!

[hellymedic]

I am tempted to quip about Lent, abstinence, religion, suffering and dogma.

... but this might be taken the wrong way, coming from a Jewish doctor...

[CrinklyLion]

I know vegetarians who cheat for bacon and vegans who cheat for cheese.... does that mean that

something is wrong

or that they

are weak

I wonder what macro they are needing to increase that is missing from their lifestyle?

There's loads of people on here who actually eat keto and who find it really works for them. I kind of figure they are rather more expert about it than I am since I've never tried keto and an unlikely ever to do so - I personally don't think that keto would be a good fit for me.  I reckon good luck to them, occasionally look in this thread out of curiosity and for some reason or nother don't really feel the need to tell people they are doing it 'wrong'. A bit like I don't feel the need to tell barrow-riders and the darksiders to get onto two wheels or to do it upwrong.

[LMT]

I know vegetarians who cheat for bacon and vegans who cheat for cheese.... does that mean that

something is wrong

or that they

are weak

I wonder what macro they are needing to increase that is missing from their lifestyle?

There's loads of people on here who actually eat keto and who find it really works for them. I kind of figure they are rather more expert about it than I am since I've never tried keto and an unlikely ever to do so - I personally don't think that keto would be a good fit for me.  I reckon good luck to them, occasionally look in this thread out of curiosity and for some reason or nother don't really feel the need to tell people they are doing it 'wrong'. A bit like I don't feel the need to tell barrow-riders and the darksiders to get onto two wheels or to do it upwrong.

That's up to you.

You either commit to a lifestyle or you don't. But (and I mean this in a general sense) extol the virtues of a diet/lifestyle and not be pulled up on it.

[LMT]

...The most recent being people talking about Keto yet cheating on it.

Pragmatism in pursuit of a little pleasure.  How utterly awful!

By increasing a macro which given the lifestyle you are on you should look to keep to a minimum. 

[Jakob]

I know vegetarians who cheat for bacon and vegans who cheat for cheese.... does that mean that

something is wrong

or that they

are weak

I wonder what macro they are needing to increase that is missing from their lifestyle?

There's loads of people on here who actually eat keto and who find it really works for them. I kind of figure they are rather more expert about it than I am since I've never tried keto and an unlikely ever to do so - I personally don't think that keto would be a good fit for me.  I reckon good luck to them, occasionally look in this thread out of curiosity and for some reason or nother don't really feel the need to tell people they are doing it 'wrong'. A bit like I don't feel the need to tell barrow-riders and the darksiders to get onto two wheels or to do it upwrong.

That's up to you.

You either commit to a lifestyle or you don't. But (and I mean this in a general sense) extol the virtues of a diet/lifestyle and not be pulled up on it.

You know, we. pr I at least, are not dioing out of some misguided religious/moral philosophy, but to improve our health and wellbeing...which, for me, it certainly has. Now, you admitted yourself to eating junk food from time to time and it's no different that when we talk about 'cheating'
No food types, groups are 'banned'. I could eat raw sugar and still be on a strict keto diet...I just couldn't eat very much of it.

[ian]

I think the issue with diets is that they are diets and, as such, follow a schema of proscriptions, and we introduce the concept of 'cheating' and then there are cycles of guilt and recrimination for breaking those proscriptions. It's a fundamentally toxic approach to eating and weirds our relationship with food. Most diets ultimately fail.

Every diet comes with a few cherry-picked scientific papers as 'proof' and people do get very defensive when challenged, even in friendly debate. Honestly, if it works I'm happy for you, but there's a danger that for everyone it works for, there are lots of people it doesn't, and they're locked into a dieting cycle that furthers their poor relationship with what they eat and drink. For that reason, I remain a dietary sceptic (for any diet, keto- included, though I respect an individual's choices).

[LMT]

I know vegetarians who cheat for bacon and vegans who cheat for cheese.... does that mean that

something is wrong

or that they

are weak

I wonder what macro they are needing to increase that is missing from their lifestyle?

There's loads of people on here who actually eat keto and who find it really works for them. I kind of figure they are rather more expert about it than I am since I've never tried keto and an unlikely ever to do so - I personally don't think that keto would be a good fit for me.  I reckon good luck to them, occasionally look in this thread out of curiosity and for some reason or nother don't really feel the need to tell people they are doing it 'wrong'. A bit like I don't feel the need to tell barrow-riders and the darksiders to get onto two wheels or to do it upwrong.

That's up to you.

You either commit to a lifestyle or you don't. But (and I mean this in a general sense) extol the virtues of a diet/lifestyle and not be pulled up on it.

You know, we. pr I at least, are not dioing out of some misguided religious/moral philosophy, but to improve our health and wellbeing...which, for me, it certainly has. Now, you admitted yourself to eating junk food from time to time and it's no different that when we talk about 'cheating'
No food types, groups are 'banned'. I could eat raw sugar and still be on a strict keto diet...I just couldn't eat very much of it.

Misguided religeous/moral philosophy? Is that you having a pop at Veganism? Laughable if it is as this is not what Veganism is about at all. All it is, is extending the social contract that humans partake in to other non humans and sentient beings.

And the junk food thing I've rebutted a few posts ago.

[CrinklyLion]

Misguided religeous/moral philosophy? Is that you having a pop at Veganism?

It really doesn't have to be, you know. Maybe their point is simply that for the people on this thread who are eating keto there isn't a moral/religious/ethical imperative to avoid carbs. They just tend not to eat a great deal of them because they find that helps their health and wellbeing. So occasionally 'cheating' isn't a sign of a moral failing or mean that their general carb-avoidance isn't a sensible and sustainable way of eating - for them.

As an analogy - I more or less don't drink alcohol. I don't have any moral, ethical or religious objection to alcohol drinking and I don't have any medical conditions or dependency issues that means I should particularly avoid it or anything. I just feel that not drinking is generally better for my health and well-being.  And I _really_ don't like hangovers

Every once in a while I 'cheat'. There's some gigs that just don't feel right without a pint in your hand (e.g. John Otway). I will happily have a glass of fizz to toast, for example, a happy couple. Going to stay with certain friends with extremely good taste in food and drink and a well-stocked wine collection, I will 'indulge' in a glass or two of very excellent red - and I'll never turn down the offer of a pint/g&t in the excellent albeit very occasional company of a certain hermit, sometimes of this parish.

I'm not tee-total.  I'm not alcohol-free. I guess you could say I follow a low-booze diet where I mostly don't drink but occasionally 'cheat' for social convenience or for pleasure.

[Jakob]

Misguided religeous/moral philosophy? Is that you having a pop at Veganism? Laughable if it is as this is not what Veganism is about at all. All it is, is extending the social contract that humans partake in to other non humans and sentient beings.

And the junk food thing I've rebutted a few posts ago.

No, I'm having a pop at your zealousness....heck, you even capitalized veganism. Once you start trying to impose your -ism on other people, yeah, it's misguided.
 I still don't get why you've chosen to shit all over what is essentially a helpful support thread.
And, no , you didn't rebutt it at all. 

[LMT]

Misguided religeous/moral philosophy? Is that you having a pop at Veganism? Laughable if it is as this is not what Veganism is about at all. All it is, is extending the social contract that humans partake in to other non humans and sentient beings.

And the junk food thing I've rebutted a few posts ago.

No, I'm having a pop at your zealousness....heck, you even capitalized veganism. Once you start trying to impose your -ism on other people, yeah, it's misguided.
 I still don't get why you've chosen to shit all over what is essentially a helpful support thread.
And, no , you didn't rebutt it at all.

I have not 'shit' over anything as you put it. Upon Perusing this Thread I saw that people were Increasing their CHO intake Beyond what is acceptable for Keto and made a comment. If you Cannot take that - than tough.

And I did rebut your post. Me having the odd bit of Vegan junk food is not the same as yourself upping your CHO intake beyond what is acceptable if you are on the Keto lifestyle. If I cheated by consuming some animal products then by all means you can say it is the same thing.

[mattc]

I think the issue with diets is that they are diets and, as such, follow a schema of proscriptions, and we introduce the concept of 'cheating' and then there are cycles of guilt and recrimination for breaking those proscriptions. It's a fundamentally toxic approach to eating and weirds our relationship with food. Most diets ultimately fail.

What about cutting out nuts?