Post by: retromodern on 13 April, 2022, 05:30:02 pm
Post by: citoyen on 13 April, 2022, 06:34:53 pm
Hell, for that matter, Tiagra is a long, long way from the agricultural implement it once was.
I have one bike with Ultegra Di2 (6870, iirc) and another with a mix of mechanical 10-speed 105 and Ultegra. I like both and see no need to “upgrade” either any time soon (as long as I can still get the parts).
Post by: Lightning Phil on 13 April, 2022, 06:40:46 pm
Post by: ElyDave on 13 April, 2022, 07:33:27 pm
And I'm another +1 for 105, XT etc
Post by: Kim on 13 April, 2022, 07:40:13 pm
I like the idea of cross compatability
This is the main thing putting me off electronic shifting, tbh. It provides new and even more pointless ways to hamper your ability to mix and match drivetrain components in ways the manufacturer wasn't interested in, and I'm avoiding the likes of Di2 on that basis.
I'm a bit more open to things like the Archer system that properly exploit the advantages of electronic shifting, though I don't currently have a need for it.
Post by: De Sisti on 13 April, 2022, 07:44:49 pm
I'm so much of a luddite I'm still speccing stuff with 10sp, I like the idea of cross compatability in case of failure.I'm still on Shimano 9 speed (cassettes), which work perfectly with Campagnolo 10 shifters
And I'm another +1 for 105, XT etc
and derailleurs. :thumbsup:
* There was a chap on our most recent Sunday ride whom I noticed was in a very unusual gear
combination (small chainring/smallest sprocket) on his electrically operated Sram bike. It turned
out that the battery in his rear derailleur was very low (hence the gear gear combination).
We stopped by the roadside whilst he conveniently opened a flap on the rear derailleur and removed the spent battery (about half the size of a typical matchbox) and replaced it with a fully-charged one.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 April, 2022, 09:42:08 pm
This is the main thing putting me off electronic shifting, tbh. It provides new and even more pointless ways to hamper your ability to mix and match drivetrain components in ways the manufacturer wasn't interested in, and I'm avoiding the likes of Di2 on that basis.
I kinda disagree. My bike has spent the last 3 years with a mix of Dura ace, ultegra, and XT. Because of Di2 I can have XT derailleurs, and Dura-ace, Ultegra, or as I am currently installing, GRX. By end of tomorrow I hope to have Dura-ace, GRX, and XT on the bike.
The only main incompatibility is I can't have a road/GRX front mech, with an xt rear mech, or visa versa.
I don't know how the 12 speed move will effect this however.
J
Post by: drossall on 13 April, 2022, 10:25:52 pm
I'm still on Shimano 9 speed (cassettes), which work perfectly with Campagnolo 10 shiftersI'm also still on 9-speed, with a smattering of 10-speed Ergos. Mostly Campag but some Shimano and a bit of Shimergo. I just can't be bothered with new bikes or upgrading, when stuff works. Got a couple of bikes with friction shifting, and that's not bad either ;D
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 14 April, 2022, 07:49:42 am
Post by: yoav on 14 April, 2022, 09:11:45 am
Post by: Beardy on 14 April, 2022, 10:18:24 am
Post by: citoyen on 14 April, 2022, 11:16:29 am
Campag doesn’t really make cheap groupsets
There's the rub - if you're feeling compelled to choose Campagnolo because you're not keen on Di2, that very much comes under #firstworldproblems
Post by: mzjo on 14 April, 2022, 11:34:17 am
I like the idea of cross compatability
This is the main thing putting me off electronic shifting, tbh. It provides new and even more pointless ways to hamper your ability to mix and match drivetrain components in ways the manufacturer wasn't interested in, and I'm avoiding the likes of Di2 on that basis.
I'm a bit more open to things like the Archer system that properly exploit the advantages of electronic shifting, though I don't currently have a need for it.
Given my habit of recycling clubmates' scrap this would stop me as well. Very little chance of picking up reuseable scrap!
Post by: yoav on 15 April, 2022, 11:36:21 am
Post by: yoav on 15 April, 2022, 11:39:03 am
I’m on a 14 speed rear wheel which kind of negates the need for chainring shenanigans. I’ve investigated electric shift for the rear, mainly so I can dump the twist grip, but I’m not drawn to any of the solutions currently offered and the twist grip isn’t really that bad.
A bit OT but are you referring to electronic shifting for Rohloff hubs, which if I understand correctly is only available for Rohloff equipped E-bikes, or is this something else?
Post by: Kim on 15 April, 2022, 11:44:56 am
Surely cross-compatibility between different manufacturers groupsets went out with 6 speed freewheels and down tube friction gear levers. Sure, you can make some things work together with a bit of ingenuity and some widgets but not something the average cyclist would tackle. But I guess this forum isn’t made up of average cyclists.
I was thinking more about sensible gears for touring bikes and particularly recumbents. Typically that's a road triple chainset and mountain bike cassette to get sufficient range, with whatever else needed to make it work properly. Obviously derailleurs and shifters have to come from the same manufacturer to avoid the need for widgets, but Di2 completely scuppers that sort of thing, not least because AIUI it can't shift a triple.
Average cyclists ride whatever's on the bike that the bike shop sells them.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 15 April, 2022, 12:11:06 pm
Post by: Kim on 15 April, 2022, 07:30:04 pm
I expect that the reason Di2 can't shift a triple is because triples are unfashionable. At some point in the next decade or two they will come back into fashion and then there will be a triple Di2.
And you can guarantee it won't be called Di3.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 15 April, 2022, 11:40:37 pm
Surely cross-compatibility between different manufacturers groupsets went out with 6 speed freewheels and down tube friction gear levers. Sure, you can make some things work together with a bit of ingenuity and some widgets but not something the average cyclist would tackle. But I guess this forum isn’t made up of average cyclists.
I was thinking more about sensible gears for touring bikes and particularly recumbents. Typically that's a road triple chainset and mountain bike cassette to get sufficient range, with whatever else needed to make it work properly. Obviously derailleurs and shifters have to come from the same manufacturer to avoid the need for widgets, but Di2 completely scuppers that sort of thing, not least because AIUI it can't shift a triple.
Average cyclists ride whatever's on the bike that the bike shop sells them.
What gears do you need for touring? Can a triple get better than my 28:40 lowest to my 38:11 highest? And if it can go higher, do we really need it? 90rpm in top gear is 40kph.
J
Post by: TimC on 16 April, 2022, 06:23:03 am
Of the mechanical groupsets, by far my favourite is Ultegra 6600. It’s a bit limited in gear range (max 28 at the back), but the shifting is sublime. 105 7000 runs it very close, though.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 16 April, 2022, 08:44:42 am
Pretty sure the one-by already isn't called Di1.I expect that the reason Di2 can't shift a triple is because triples are unfashionable. At some point in the next decade or two they will come back into fashion and then there will be a triple Di2.
And you can guarantee it won't be called Di3.
Post by: Genosse Brymbo on 22 April, 2022, 12:47:53 pm
I also have a 10sp Campag Veloce double. It's my audax bike and I love it, especially the drop-three-cogs r.h. thumb button and the l.h. micro-ratchet. From what I've read on here it would appear the Campag l.h. has become indexed in all but ridiculously high price groupsets. In fact, reasonably priced Campag groupsets may not be available at all; however, I've not researched this. I am anticipating a move to 105 or bar-end friction shifting when the Veloce drivetrain expires.
Post by: nmcgann on 22 April, 2022, 07:25:48 pm
Post by: rafletcher on 22 April, 2022, 07:30:52 pm
There's scope for a contrary thread titled "Campagnolo marketing - a gift to Shimano?". I have two 105-equipped bikes - a 9spd triple of washing line vintage and a more recent 11spd double with hydraulic discs. Both work well, and the 11spd shifting and hydraulic braking is gorgeous.
I also have a 10sp Campag Veloce double. It's my audax bike and I love it, especially the drop-three-cogs r.h. thumb button and the l.h. micro-ratchet. From what I've read on here it would appear the Campag l.h. has become indexed in all but ridiculously high price groupsets. In fact, reasonably priced Campag groupsets may not be available at all; however, I've not researched this. I am anticipating a move to 105 or bar-end friction shifting when the Veloce drivetrain expires.
I was thinking similar, my sweet spot was Athena 9sp triple with the 3-cog rear/micro front mechs. Once they’d been changed (for groupsets I would afford), plus the lack of hydraulic braking, led me to go completely Shimano.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 22 April, 2022, 08:12:37 pm
Post by: De Sisti on 22 April, 2022, 08:45:33 pm
I see the OP hasn’t been back. Fire and forget.Doubt we'll hear from him again.
Post by: grams on 23 April, 2022, 10:26:30 pm
I expect that the reason Di2 can't shift a triple is because triples are unfashionable. At some point in the next decade or two they will come back into fashion and then there will be a triple Di2.
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/XTR-Di2-FD-M9050-3-11-speed-Front-Derailleur-p44318/
So unfashionably that a while back you could get them on clearance for like £40.
Post by: IanDG on 24 April, 2022, 08:41:30 am
I'm so much of a luddite I'm still speccing stuff with 10sp, I like the idea of cross compatability in case of failure.
And I'm another +1 for 105, XT etc
10 speed? You
Post by: IanDG on 24 April, 2022, 08:56:43 am
Surely cross-compatibility between different manufacturers groupsets went out with 6 speed freewheels and down tube friction gear levers. Sure, you can make some things work together with a bit of ingenuity and some widgets but not something the average cyclist would tackle. But I guess this forum isn’t made up of average cyclists.
I was thinking more about sensible gears for touring bikes and particularly recumbents. Typically that's a road triple chainset and mountain bike cassette to get sufficient range, with whatever else needed to make it work properly. Obviously derailleurs and shifters have to come from the same manufacturer to avoid the need for widgets, but Di2 completely scuppers that sort of thing, not least because AIUI it can't shift a triple.
Average cyclists ride whatever's on the bike that the bike shop sells them.
What gears do you need for touring? Can a triple get better than my 28:40 lowest to my 38:11 highest? And if it can go higher, do we really need it? 90rpm in top gear is 40kph.
J
24x34 is pretty close at the bottom end (19.1" cf 18.9")
44x11 is a lot higher at the top end (108" cf 93.3") which gives 46kph at 90rpm
With smaller range the change from one sprocket to the next is not as big and there's much less of a "jump" from one gear to the next minimising the occasion where one gear is "just a bit too high" and the next up is "just a bit too low" A triple is much better suited for mixed terrain IMO.
Post by: retromodern on 27 April, 2022, 04:27:19 pm
I see the OP hasn’t been back. Fire and forget.Doubt we'll hear from him again.
Wow. Many interesting comments in this thread which have certainly hleped me address the question. I didn't know I had to write thankyou notes.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 27 April, 2022, 04:38:01 pm
Post by: ElyDave on 27 April, 2022, 07:20:15 pm
I'm so much of a luddite I'm still speccing stuff with 10sp, I like the idea of cross compatability in case of failure.
And I'm another +1 for 105, XT etc
10 speed? Youluckymodern b******! I'm still running 7/8/9 speed on my bikes ;D
My reasonably priced 90's MTB is still on 7 SP
I've not forgotten my roots :P
Post by: retromodern on 07 July, 2022, 04:01:40 pm
Post by: rafletcher on 07 July, 2022, 04:17:09 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 07 July, 2022, 04:19:10 pm
I think you'll find that the latest Shimano 12sp Di2 groupsets are already wireless.
Semi wireless
Post by: rafletcher on 07 July, 2022, 04:23:54 pm
I think you'll find that the latest Shimano 12sp Di2 groupsets are already wireless.
Semi wireless
My bad, I'd only glanced at the shiters.
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 July, 2022, 06:13:03 pm
I used to regard di2 as an expensive luxury and certainly not a necessity, but after a year of it stepping back to cables now almost feels like a joke.
Post by: Genosse Brymbo on 07 July, 2022, 06:35:54 pm
A couple of weeks ago I changed from Campag Ultratorque to Shimano HT2 chainset/BB, after I'd tired of having to use the LBS for servicing of the former. The last time the Campag BB started creaking within 100km. HT2 is so much easier to install and you don't need expensive, dedicated tools to replace the bearings (actually bearing and cup assemblies which Shimano appear to call "adapters"). Did it myself - even easier than fitting square taper.
Oh, and thank you for the one 112mm BCD hole on your 34t inner chainring, Campagnolo. That meant that I couldn't re-use it on the 48/36t truly 110mm BCD 5-bolt Shimano crankset.
I hope that fully wireless Di2 will be available when the Campag derailleurs and shifters need replacement. Back on topic now...
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 July, 2022, 06:44:12 pm
It is exactly the reason I gave up on Campag. Working on it has become a real pain in the arse, especially the ridiculous cranksets. Powertorque is even worse. You need a bearing puller (?????) to get the bearing off the axle, and a different kind of puller to get the crank off. You also need a special blanking disk as well. Oh, and another tool to get the outboard bearing cups off. If you use the proper tools it is currently over £150 just to be able to change the BB bearings, and it takes ages.
Shimano...one £15 tool and an Allen key (that also removes disc rotors) and 10 minutes max.
I had to replace the spring in my Record ergo 3 times in 8 years. Never had an STI fail.
I feel a bit sorry for Campag as up to the 90s they were supreme, but in a couple of decades we won't be talking about them any more.
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 29 July, 2022, 09:08:25 pm
Sent from my XQ-BT52 using Tapatalk
Post by: drossall on 29 July, 2022, 10:43:32 pm
Many people may soon assume that it's not really possible to do anything more than, say, a mile without electric assistance, just as many people will not do much more than that without a car!