When RLJing messes up.

[little miss mac]

Mr Mac just sent me an email:

Today I saw a cyclist attacked by a lorry driver! Happened on the turn into Embankment from Westminster Bridge. Cyclist was at fault as it looked like he had jumped a red previously and cut the lorry up, causing the lorry to take evasive action.

Probably not the best way to deal with the situation (i.e. grabbing cyclist by the throat and throwing him off his bike), but dare say cyclist might not be so stupid in the future. I stopped briefly to see what was going on, but left it to others as it looked like the police would probably get involved. Hard to have sympathy for cyclists in these situations…

That cyclist not only put himself in peril but endangered the liberty and employment of the lorry driver. This was an overreaction on the driver's part but I can't help having sympathy for him.

I noticed there were a lot of RLJ morons today - unusually, quite a number of girls merrily sailing through. It's normally the blokes.  NOBs rather than POBs. (Nobs On Bikes. Works well, don't you think?)

[Redlight]

 Hard to have sympathy for cyclists in these situations…
[/quote]

I noticed there were a lot of RLJ morons today - unusually, quite a number of girls merrily sailing through. It's normally the blokes.  NOBs rather than POBs. (Nobs On Bikes. Works well, don't you think?)
[/quote]

Given how many of them also ride in traffic with earphones in, blithly ignorant of what is going on around and behind them, I think of them as PODs - prospective organ donors

[andygates]

This was an overreaction on the driver's part but I can't help having sympathy for him.

Understatement of the week there.  Rider was a knob.  Driver assaulted him. 

Sympathy?  Not a bloody shred.  Momentary vexation does not revoke your right to not get beaten up.  Would you say the same if the rider had been a petite woman?  A kid? 

[Wendy]

That cyclist not only put himself in peril but endangered the liberty and employment of the lorry driver.

Without in any way defending the stupidity of the cyclist and taking the account at face value, the cyclist didn't endanger the driver's livelihood at all.  That's purely the driver's fault - he made a much worse mistake by assaulting the cyclist.  If I were the cyclist, I'd absolutely press charges.

[ScumOfTheRoad]

LittleMissMac please take a step back. NOTHING justifies physically assaulting someone on the road. Nothing.
The lorry driver bloke is in a ten-tonne truck. He cannot possibly come to physical harm, no matter what the cyclist does.
At the very very worst he'll have to brake heavily and there will be some shattered glass or a bent car bumper.

This is just a road rage incident. there is no justification for taking the law into your own hands. What will be next - some diver takes offence at me having a white framed bike, and comes after me with a wheel brace?

[little miss mac]

Hmm. I didn't say I agreed with him getting punchy. I had sympathy for the fright he must have had. Could have worded it better.

It's been a while since I've been accused of agreeing with violence against women and children  

[Wendy]

Given how many of them also ride in traffic with earphones in, blithly ignorant of what is going on around and behind them, I think of them as PODs - prospective organ donors

I don't think that's a reasonable attitude.  It's very possible to cycle well and safely without being able to hear anything.  It's no different to a deaf person cycling, or a driver with the windows up (and not even including the stereo on).  Let's be frank, the ignorance of what is going on around them is nothing to do with the hearing, and everything to do with not looking much and not negotiating with the other traffic.

CTUKs approach is that you shouldn't need to hear, because you should be looking properly.  That does differ slightly from John Franklin's Cyclecraft view that hearing is a sometimes useful secondary sense.  I ride with music and headphones all the time, but am closer to Cyclecraft as I can always hear traffic over the music.

[DuncanM]

LittleMissMac please take a step back. NOTHING justifies physically assaulting someone on the road. Nothing.
The lorry driver bloke is in a ten-tonne truck. He cannot possibly come to physical harm, no matter what the cyclist does.
At the very very worst he'll have to brake heavily and there will be some shattered glass or a bent car bumper.

This is just a road rage incident. there is no justification for taking the law into your own hands. What will be next - some diver takes offence at me having a white framed bike, and comes after me with a wheel brace?

At the very worst he could have killing someone on his concience for the rest of his life.  There's no justification for getting physical, but I can understand there being a huge amount of aldrenaline in his system if he narrowly avoided running someone over (whether it's his fault or the other party's fault)...

[LEE]

I drove into London on Saturday (a once a year experience).

I don't remember seeing any cyclist waiting at a red light.

A single visit isn't enough fo rme to base an accurate judgement on but my gut feeling is that a minority of people rely on the majority to obey the law, allowing them to proceed in safety themselves.

I don't condone assaulting anyone for such selfish behaviour but neither do I have much sympathy for anyone stuck under the wheels of a truck if they deliberately ignore a red light.

What amazes me is that the truck driver managed to catch the cyclist to assault him.

My average speed through central London was so low that only time-lapse photography would reveal any movement at all.

[ScumOfTheRoad]

I don't condone assaulting anyone for such selfish behaviour but neither do I have much sympathy for anyone stuck under the wheels of a truck if they deliberately ignore a red light.

I'm sorry to say it, but this is likely to be the other way round.
Look carefully at a lot of junctions in London - red light jumpers are getting themselves across the junction safely.
I see many of them edging across to a safe refuge in the middle, then waiting till the phasing of the lights creates a big gap in the traffic, rather than mixing it in the Grand Prix start when the lights change.

Many London cyclists have been killed whilst at a light-controlled juntion when a heavy vehicle turns left over them.
I have never read of a case where a cyclist crossing over a junction on red has 'gone under the wheels of a truck'.

[Wendy]

I don't think jumping the lights can ever be anything other than selfish and impatient cycling.  Let's not trot out the safety excuse, because that was just bad reporting.

[DuncanM]

When I commuted in London (last year), most RLJing wasn't to get across safely, it was to avoid stopping.  For every person who slowed, checked it was safe and then moved across in a deliberate manner, there would be a couple who just shot through the light and turned left, and another couple who shot the light and emergency stopped if necessary (I've not seen anyone hit doing this, but I have seen cases where the car emergency stopped and the cyclist just carried on like they were invincible).
The majority of those RLJing were doing so at the same speed at which they rode along the road (about 12mph or so).

[ScumOfTheRoad]

Duncan, I am willing to stand corrected.
However, I used to regularly drive along the Embankment in London and I would see cyclists RLJing to get across junctions safely. I have no sympathy for those types who fly across pedestiran crossings.

[Redlight]

Given how many of them also ride in traffic with earphones in, blithly ignorant of what is going on around and behind them, I think of them as PODs - prospective organ donors

I don't think that's a reasonable attitude.  It's very possible to cycle well and safely without being able to hear anything.  It's no different to a deaf person cycling, or a driver with the windows up (and not even including the stereo on).  Let's be frank, the ignorance of what is going on around them is nothing to do with the hearing, and everything to do with not looking much and not negotiating with the other traffic.

Agreed and I probably should have phrased my comments more precisely.  The point I was attempting to make is that (from my observations riding in London) there often does seem to be a correlation riding wearing earphones and either riding incompetently, e.g. drifiting around the lane, showing no awareness of other traffic, etc, or riding irresponsibly, a description under which I would include running red lights, riding through pedestrians on crossings and riding without lights in the dark.

FWIW, I did try riding with headphones in once just to see what it was like and I felt unsafe but that's probably because I found the music too distracting and I do like to hear what's going on behind me as clearly as possible.  

[Wendy]

The point I was attempting to make is that (from my observations riding in London) there often does seem to be a correlation riding wearing earphones and either riding incompetently, e.g. drifiting around the lane, showing no awareness of other traffic, etc, or riding irresponsibly, a description under which I would include running red lights, riding through pedestrians on crossings and riding without lights in the dark.

Understood and agreed!  Yes, there are far too many cyclists with poor practice.  I think it's perhaps the not looking and not negotiating and yet still manouvering that seems to stress out motorists the most.

[Frenchie]

Given how many of them also ride in traffic with earphones in, blithly ignorant of what is going on around and behind them, I think of them as PODs - prospective organ donors

I don't think that's a reasonable attitude.  It's very possible to cycle well and safely without being able to hear anything.  It's no different to a deaf person cycling, or a driver with the windows up (and not even including the stereo on).  Let's be frank, the ignorance of what is going on around them is nothing to do with the hearing, and everything to do with not looking much and not negotiating with the other traffic.

CTUKs approach is that you shouldn't need to hear, because you should be looking properly.  That does differ slightly from John Franklin's Cyclecraft view that hearing is a sometimes useful secondary sense.  I ride with music and headphones all the time, but am closer to Cyclecraft as I can always hear traffic over the music.

Well I agree with Franklin; but I'd go further than "sometimes". I don't think it is safe to ride with headphones in traffic, or, as a matter of fact, on some country lanes. It is possible to cycle well, yes, but I believe that hearing what is coming does help with other traffic, in particular if I cannot see it approach or "behave" behind me for example.

Back to topic; both parties are probably at fault. We don't really know what the cyclist did precisely, though he seems at fault, yet we cannot approve of the driver's response.

[her_welshness]

LittleMissMac please take a step back. NOTHING justifies physically assaulting someone on the road. Nothing.
The lorry driver bloke is in a ten-tonne truck. He cannot possibly come to physical harm, no matter what the cyclist does.
At the very very worst he'll have to brake heavily and there will be some shattered glass or a bent car bumper.

This is just a road rage incident. there is no justification for taking the law into your own hands. What will be next - some diver takes offence at me having a white framed bike, and comes after me with a wheel brace?

At the very worst he could have killing someone on his concience for the rest of his life.  There's no justification for getting physical, but I can understand there being a huge amount of aldrenaline in his system if he narrowly avoided running someone over (whether it's his fault or the other party's fault)...

Damn straight. He should not have used violence, but think about the lorry driver and the impact on him/her should they run someone over.

There are far too many cyclists jumping red lights in London, and for me there is a sense of justice when they do get pulled in by the police and fined.

[woollypigs]

NOBs rather than POBs. (Nobs On Bikes. Works well, don't you think?)

Yup that works well

RLJ should not be done, full stop.

[Phil]

Sounds grim.  I think cars do funny things to the psyche, I get cut up deliberately fairly often and have never decked anybody yet. 

I've been pondering the whole RLJ issue recently - my new commute takes me down the Edgware Road, along the Marylebone Road and then down through the City.  There are loads of traffic lights, most phased so that there are long periods where nobody moves. 

Almost all the RLJs I see are executed smoothly by zen-looking cyclists.  I envy them as I sit for minutes at a time amid bus exhaust fumes before having to set off at top speed to keep clear of the swarming Vespas and the inevitable minicab left-hook. 

[Hummers]

You bleddy Londoners have it easy. An alarming number of cyclists in Pompey seem to be a law unto themselves making them a danger to drivers, pedestrians and other cyclists.

RLJs, pavement riders, taking right turns by riding on the wrong side of the road and what seems to be a local speciality, riding four abreast down the middle of the road with no hands.

It occurs to me that whinging about this on here  is pointless and only by doing something locally will change the situation.

H

[Julian]

Taking a right turn by veering into oncoming traffic and going along the gutter on the wrong side of the road, a full 100 yards before the actual turn, is popular here too.

I think part of it is a desire to show off one's l33t cycle skillz, especially the synchronised hands-free routine.  The only thing to be done is to get a group of grim-faced carradice-swingers to outshine them.  Does AUK have a stunts wing yet? 

[Hummers]

I think m'learned friend is referring to the AUK Cupid Stunts division of advanced 'what does that say on my route sheet' looking down and avoiding driver eye contact division.

V hush hush.

H

[gordon taylor]

Taking a right turn by veering into oncoming traffic and going along the gutter on the wrong side of the road, a full 100 yards before the actual turn, is popular here too.

That is standard road practice in countries with huge cycling numbers. Perhaps the technique is being imported?

In Vietnam, for example, you would wait for eternity to turn across the tide of oncoming traffic, so you just meander across against the flow and then nip into the junction.
 
It looks bonkers, but nobody seems to mind that only about 90% of the traffic is on the right side of the road.

[PaulF]

Comparing New York to London it seems that London cyclist actually behave relatively well. As I ride up to a a red light here pedestrians freeze, expecting me to barge through, and actually give a bemused look when I stop. RLJing is the norm, not just the London style of going late or early, but more blatantly ignoring them and performing a 'random walk' through the crossing traffic, as a pedestrian I have learnt to be in the middle of the pack or to adopt a 'lifesaver; glance as I cross the road in anticipation of the oncoming cyclists. One way streets (which almost every other road in Manhattan is) are similarly ignored. The only blessing is that there's very little riding on the sidewalk pavement.

[ian]

...

There are far too many cyclists jumping red lights in London, and for me there is a sense of justice when they do get pulled in by the police and fined.

I'm discomfited by the assault, but I do recall a similar event at a pedestrian crossing a few months' back. Standard issue courier boy zips across a pedestrian crossing on green, convinced that the pedestrians getting out of his way was ample demonstration of his l33t skills. He passes a little close to a big guy (well, a little close to several people) who reaches out and grabs the courier bag. Bike carried on, courier didn't. He ended up sat on the road, pride and backside - I imagine - quite sore. Guy just carried and there was a little round of applause from the other pedestrians (which I guess is an ample demonstration of how popular RLJing is). There was an additional karmic follow-up. A number 521 bus ran over his bike. I can't pretend that much sympathy.

I don't accept the safety argument for RLJing - it's rude people being rude.